Looking for the links with info about elevated BUN/crea in raw fed cats

Which is exactly why I am a little worried.  My Callie's numbers are high, as to be expected, BUT, she is also losing weight.  That's why we have cut out bone and are adding the egg whites to her diet.  She goes in sometime this month for another BUN and Crea test, this time done simultaneously with a Urine Specific Gravity Test.  Then we'll really know if we should worry or not

mrsgreenjeens said:

Which is exactly why I am a little worried.  My Callie's numbers are high, as to be expected, BUT, she is also losing weight.  That's why we have cut out bone and are adding the egg whites to her diet.  She goes in sometime this month for another BUN and Crea test, this time done simultaneously with a Urine Specific Gravity Test.  Then we'll really know if we should worry or not

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Sally - all my cats lost weight...... Which is to be expected being that they were all on a high carb diet, and are now on raw. Bugsy lost almost 8lbs. Lucky lost 3lbs, and Hope a couple...... But they are all in a healthier weight/shape..... Are you sure that's not what is going on?

I guess you are not sure :doh3: I mean..... just keep that in mind I guess

mrsgreenjeens said:

Which is exactly why I am a little worried.  My Callie's numbers are high, as to be expected, BUT, she is also losing weight.  That's why we have cut out bone and are adding the egg whites to her diet.  She goes in sometime this month for another BUN and Crea test, this time done simultaneously with a Urine Specific Gravity Test.  Then we'll really know if we should worry or not

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Have you set a date for the re-test?

Carolina said:

mrsgreenjeens said:

Which is exactly why I am a little worried.  My Callie's numbers are high, as to be expected, BUT, she is also losing weight.  That's why we have cut out bone and are adding the egg whites to her diet.  She goes in sometime this month for another BUN and Crea test, this time done simultaneously with a Urine Specific Gravity Test.  Then we'll really know if we should worry or not

Click to expand...

Sally - all my cats lost weight...... Which is to be expected being that they were all on a high carb diet, and are now on raw. Bugsy lost almost 8lbs. Lucky lost 3lbs, and Hope a couple...... But they are all in a healthier weight/shape..... Are you sure that's not what is going on?

I guess you are not sure

I mean..... just keep that in mind I guess

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Well, I guess what I meant to say is that she doesn't really WANT to eat.  No matter what I serve up...she's lost interest.  That's why she's losing weight.  And she can't afford to do that.  On a scale of 1 - 5 (5 being the perfect weight), she was at a -3 in March.  That's a change for a cat who used to be slightly overweight herself. 

LDG said:

mrsgreenjeens said:

Which is exactly why I am a little worried.  My Callie's numbers are high, as to be expected, BUT, she is also losing weight.  That's why we have cut out bone and are adding the egg whites to her diet.  She goes in sometime this month for another BUN and Crea test, this time done simultaneously with a Urine Specific Gravity Test.  Then we'll really know if we should worry or not

Click to expand...

Have you set a date for the re-test?

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The Vet's office is setting up an appt for 90 days from her last visit.  I can't remember when it was..oops, just looked it up, was in mid April, so guess we won't be going until July.  IF it turns out there really is an issue, I'll try to remember to update THIS thread, since it's now referenced in the Raw Resources Thread

Sally

Just as a FWIW, Zara's blood results from earlier this week:

hematocrit    42% (lab normal: 29-45)

BUN            27 mg/dL (lab normal: 15-34)

creatinine     1.7 mg/dL (lab normal: 0.8-2.3)

The vet called her results "excellent". 

That's great, mschauer!

Thanks Laurie. But my reason for posting the results was to show that, for my vet anyway, the slightly higher blood chemistry values from feeding a raw diet isn't an issue. In other words I suspect that no one needs to be concerned about having to educate their vet on this issue.

Those are good numbers well within range. Hopefully Mazy's will be the same. But since she gets blood work annually, if some of the numbers have gone higher, but still within normal range, I want to be sure my vet understands the higher protein diet is more likely the cause,rather than kidney failure.

Your vet may be knowledgeable about the differing numbers of a raw fed cat, but many aren't. My vet is cautious by nature on many things, but if she thinks she sees something like a potential kidney problem, she's all over it.

She and I have a long standing habit of exchanging information, but this is new territory for me, and I suspect, for her, too. We're both learning, so the more information I have to share with her, the better.

otto said:

Those are good numbers well within range. Hopefully Mazy's will be the same. But since she gets blood work annually, if some of the numbers have gone higher, but still within normal range, I want to be sure my vet understands the higher protein diet is more likely the cause,rather than kidney failure.

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I know they are within the normal range. That was my point in posting them. Zara has been on a very high protein diet for over 5 years and yet her blood work shows nothing alarming to her vet.

If Mazy's numbers are within the normal range why would your vet suspect kidney disease?? IMO far too much is being made of this issue. That a cat fed a high protein diet can have slightly higher blood chemistry values shouldn't cause anyone to be concerned about having to "explain" anything to their vet. 

Your vet may be knowledgeable about the differing numbers of a raw fed cat, but many aren't. My vet is cautious by nature on many things, but if she thinks she sees something like a potential kidney problem, she's all over it.

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The vet who gave me the results and the "excellent" evaluation doesn't know Zara is fed a raw diet.

She and I have a long standing habit of exchanging information, but this is new territory for me, and I suspect, for her, too. We're both learning, so the more information I have to share with her, the better.

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Naturally you are welcome to discuss what ever you like with your vet. Just don't go in with the attitude that she is wrong if she suspects kidney disease based on the test results regardless of whether or not she takes raw feeding into consideration. That is my concern. I see far too often people coming to the conclusion based on what they see posted at TCS that they should ignore what their vet says. In the case of kidney disease that is an especially dangerous attitude as by the time tests can confirm CRF it is already advanced. 

And remember as has been established in this thread the blood panel results are not taken by vets to be definitive of a kidney problem anyway. 

I'll just repeat, I think far too much is being made of this issue.

mschauer said:

Naturally you are welcome to discuss what ever you like with your vet. Just don't go in with the attitude that she is wrong if she suspects kidney disease based on the test results regardless of whether or not she takes raw feeding into consideration. That is my concern. I see far too often people coming to the conclusion based on what they see posted at TCS that they should ignore what their vet says. In the case of kidney disease that is an especially dangerous attitude as by the time tests can confirm CRF it is already advanced. 

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Good point. :nod:

mschauer said:

I'll just repeat, I think far too much is being made of this issue.

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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. There is no "big deal" being made of "this issue". I want to educate myself, and understand certain things. It's as simple as that.

I wish to gather information, knowledge and understanding. I prefer to know and understand as much as possible about my cats' health. It's important to me to be able to discuss things with my vet, sharing knowledge and learning, to the benefit of my cats' health. The more I know, the less I worry, and the better the care my cats get.


.

otto said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. There is no "big deal" being made of "this issue". I want to educate myself, and understand certain things. It's as simple as that.

I wish to gather information, knowledge and understanding. I prefer to know and understand as much as possible about my cats' health. It's important to me to be able to discuss things with my vet, sharing knowledge and learning, to the benefit of my cats' health. The more I know, the less I worry, and the better the care my cats get.

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Of course! You are to be commended for learning as much as you can about how to keep your kitties as healthy as possible.

I can't agree that a big deal isn't being made of this issue. This thread is proof of that. You are obviously still concerned that the higher BUN, creatinine and hematocrit values of a cat fed a high protein diet might cause some complication with your vet in diagnosing your cats. I'm trying to explain why that fact is causing you, and possibly others, needless worry.

I don't feel I have made my point clear. The fact has been brought up that cats fed a high protein diet have higher BUN, creatinine and hematocrit values in their blood workups. As a result of that fact people, such as you, have gotten the idea that they need to "warn" their vets of that fact so that the vet doesn't made a erroneous diagnosis of a kidney problem based on the higher values. That is an unfounded concern.

As the study Laurie posted indicated a cat fed a high protein diet may have slightly higher BUN, creatinine and hematocrit values that that they should still be within the normal range. The blood work of any cat, regardless of that it is fed, can come up with values at the upper end of the ranges. That is why what is "normal" is a range and not a specific value. Also, as has been pointed out in this thread, the BUN, creatinine and hematocrit values being outside of the normal range will not cause a vet to diagnosis a kidney problem. They are just clues that further testing may be needed. And no vet should look at those high values and say "Well, the cat is fed a high protein diet so I'll just assume the kidneys are OK" without doing further testing.

Bottom line, if a cats blood work reveals those values outside of the normal ranges, a kidney problem should still be considered a possibility whether the cat is fed a high protein diet or not. In other words, that the cat is fed a high protein diet and that such a diet can result in slightly higher BUN, creatinine and hematcrit values simply isn't relevant.

OK, I'll stop pounding on this topic now. I'm sure everyone has had enough of it. From me anyway. 

I hope you have an uneventful visit with your vet! 

Mazy had her check up today. Turns out vet is already familiar with the possibility of a higher BUN in raw fed cats. Managed to get her there with a full bladder so they got the urine too.

Gosh I hate putting her through it, especially the full bladder part. I used evil trickery. Mazy and I have a morning routine. First thing in the morning, after her pre-meal serving, either she tells me, or I tell her it's time to go down to the litter boxes. If she tells me, and I don't act, she waits. This is because she knows I want to see her pee, and some times inexplicably poke a little white paper stick under her when she does.

I was counting heavily on that routine this morning. Instead of the pre-meal I gave her a pepcid with a tiny bit of freeze dried chicken breast (she was fasting because of blood work but I figured that would be okay), then ignored her when she did the sideways "take me to the litter box" dance. When I did finally head down she ran down in a big hurry, she really had to go! Before she could jump in the litter box I snatched her and poked her into the carrier. I didn't feel good about it, but I had to get her there with a full bladder.

Lab results on Friday.

.

Mean mommy!

...but I expect she forgave you. :heart2:

mrsgreenjeens said:

Which is exactly why I am a little worried.  My Callie's numbers are high, as to be expected, BUT, she is also losing weight.  That's why we have cut out bone and are adding the egg whites to her diet.  She goes in sometime this month for another BUN and Crea test, this time done simultaneously with a Urine Specific Gravity Test.  Then we'll really know if we should worry or not

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i said I would update this particular thread when we got new information on Callie, so this is it:

With her latest blood test and Urine Specific Gravity Test, the conclusion is that she DOES have early signs of kidney disease .  Please take note that some of  her values were OUTSIDE the norm.  Not just high, but higher than norm, both for BUN and Creatinine.  Here is what her trend has been:

                                        8/2012          4/2013                 7/2013

BUN                                  34                   49                     44

Crea                                  2.8                  3.1                   3.3

Bun/Creat Ratio                12%                16%                 13%

USG Results                 perfect!              N/A                 1.029 (considered in the normal range, but indicates an issue with above numbers )

BUT, for those who are feeding raw, or thinking about it, I want to preface by saying Callie was on kibble for 12 years prior to starting a raw diet,  so I honestly think if we had not changed her diet when we did, she would be a LOT worse.  That's just my opinion, granted, but I'm gonna go with.  And hopefully now that she is on a really good diet (not raw now since she's on strike, but at least a good high protein, high fat, low carb, low phosphorus canned regimen), she will not get any worse.    She must be feeling pretty good, because she is actually out and about more than usual, and even playing more than she has in the past year or so

Yes, I can see the trend and cause for concern and paying attention there with the steady climb in crea and bun.. Mazy's went up from 1.8 June 2012 to 2.0 June 2013. Last year at the time of her blood work she wasn't on raw yet but had been on canned for the previous 6 months, prior to that she had been on Hills c/d kibble for 6 1/2 years, and her crea had 1.1 (2009) or 1.2 (2010 and 2011)

This was Jennie's first blood work and hers was 2.2.

The lab results still indicate that 2.4 is high normal but my vet tells me the veterinary field is looking at 1.8 as the new high normal. However she does feel that Mazy's and Jennie's numbers reflect the high protein diet rather than any concern over their kidneys as all other related numbers are normal.