Looking for the links with info about elevated BUN/crea in raw fed cats

I know there are threads on this, but I cannot find them. I swear I remember reading and even participating in a thread where some of our most generous and helpful members posted links (studies?) that discuss these numbers being elevated in raw fed cats and why.

I just am useless at searching, I don't know why, it's a handicap for sure. :lol3:

Anyway I would be so grateful if those of you who know, or can find them, will post the links in this thread. Mazy is going to be having her 6 month check up soon and I want to be prepared with information, should her blood work reveal higher numbers than last year. She will be getting a UA too, I believe there is some correlation between the two tests?

My vet is not 'against' raw feeding, but she doesn't know a lot about it, unless she has been doing some researching since she last saw one of my cats. I usually provide her with printed information on what my cats are getting when I see her, and I hope to have this info all organized too.

Thank you very much for any help!

otto said:

I know there are threads on this, but I cannot find them. I swear I remember reading and even participating in a thread where some of our most generous and helpful members posted links (studies?) that discuss these numbers being elevated in raw fed cats and why.

I just am useless at searching, I don't know why, it's a handicap for sure.

Anyway I would be so grateful if those of you who know, or can find them, will post the links in this thread. Mazy is going to be having her 6 month check up soon and I want to be prepared with information, should her blood work reveal higher numbers than last year. She will be getting a UA too, I believe there is some correlation between the two tests?

My vet is not 'against' raw feeding, but she doesn't know a lot about it, unless she has been doing some researching since she last saw one of my cats. I usually provide her with printed information on what my cats are getting when I see her, and I hope to have this info all organized too.

Thank you very much for any help!

Click to expand...

I am going to give you my , which are based off my experience with one pure exotic cat (Leptailurus serval) and two hybrids (F1 Bengal and F3 Savannah).

The information about the F3 Savannah can be seen via this post: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/254285/lokis-blood-work-blood-panel. Yes, you (Otto) where kind enough to comment/give information on this thread .

With my pure Leptailurus serval and higher percentage  (62% theoretical twig value of Prionailurus bengalensis) F1 Bengal, they had very high BUN, creatinine, RBC and hematocrit values when compared to a domestic cat. But, when compared to there own species (my Serval to zoo's data base Servals and my F1 Bengal to pure Prionailurus bengalensis) the values came out "normal".

What is important to remember, IMHO at least, is that raw fed domestics tend to have higher BUN, creatinine, RBC and hematocrit values then canned or kibble fed domestics.

Hopefully, that answers your question somewhat. If not, I am sorry. As always, if you need ANY clarification just ask .

What is important to remember, IMHO at least, is that raw fed domestics tend to have higher BUN, creatinine, RBC and hematocrit values then canned or kibble fed domestics.

Click to expand...

Yes, thank you, that is my point. I want links to the studies and information on this, to discuss with my vet, in the event that Mazy's creatinine and BUN show some elevation. She gets blood work annually, so I already have her 'basic healthy profile' numbers. If they have gone up I don't want my vet freaking out that Mazy is going into kidney failure.

In your thread (thank you for the link) there is mention that studies have been done, but no links to the information.

in MY thread on this topic, there are a few references to increased BUN and Crea, but nothing specific to cats.  Just references due to increase due to increase in protein intake.  Just look for posts by Carolina and/or LDG

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/257597/bun-and-creatinine-continuing-to-rise-problem/

I am not aware of a bloodwork study done on raw fed cats. However, there is a study on bloodwork on raw fed vs. kibble fed DOGS. I'm on my phone so I can't post the link, but if you google Dr. Jean Dodds raw fed dog study, you should find it easily. That study should translate comparably to cats or any other raw fed animal I would think.

Here's the link, otto: http://mountaindogfood.com/RawHelp/Raw_Food_Study.pdf

It's not the study, just a summary of the results written by the author of the study.

There is a study of cats on a high protein diet, but not on raw: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21752682

These will be helpful, thank you Laurie!

The last time I was at my vet I mentioned the possibility of high BUN and creatinine [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]levels due to my feeding a raw diet and she said she had never seen those values high in the raw fed cats in her practice. Looking at the results here:[/color]

LDG said:

Here's the link, otto: http://mountaindogfood.com/RawHelp/Raw_Food_Study.pdf

Click to expand...

.. it seems that the values may typically be higher than average but still within the normal range.

From this: [color= rgb(70, 70, 70)]  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21752682[/color]

Dietary intake can result in clinically significant changes in UN and statistically significantly changes in several other biochemical analytes, although all analytes are likely to remain within normal reference intervals.

Click to expand...

I guess to some vets a jump in the values even if they are still within the normal range may be cause for concern.

Has anyone feeding raw had their vet say lab results show BUN or creatine values outside of the normal range but it turned out to not be a problem???

 If your vet says Mazy has high BUN or creatinine I'm not sure it would be a good idea to assume it is just because of feeding raw. 

mschauer said:

<snipped> Has anyone feeding raw had their vet say lab results show BUN or creatine values outside of the normal range but it turned out to not be a problem???
 If your vet says Mazy has high BUN or creatinine I'm not sure it would be a good idea to assume it is just because of feeding raw. 

<snipped>

Click to expand...

When my pure Leptailurus serval, F1 Bengal (theoretical twig value of 62% Prionailurus bengalensis) and F3 Savannah had there quarterly blood work (the pure Serval and F1 Bengal saw a licensed zoo veterinarian, but refused to see my F3 Savannah) and the lab compared them to domestics cats (the zoo veterinarian used the same lab as a domestic veterinarian and the lab was not familiar with the latin names of the exotics, hence thought it was a typo) the above values where sky high when compared to a domestic. However, my F1 Bengal lived for 14 years (I got her around three years old from a breeder because she refused to mate any F5 Bengal tom and was SUPPER HUMAN oriented/tame!) and my pure Leptailurus serval lived for 10 to 15 years (I was his fifth and final owner and I NEVER GOT HIS USDA POINT OF ORIGIN PAPERS!). My F3 Savannah (that is 12% theoretical twig value Serval) had SKY HIGH (according to my vet, who only saw domestics and was scared of house cat )  BUN or creatinine levels and died of Lymphoma (isn't related to those levels) at around three years old ( please note, the other two died of Lymphoma, just at a MUCH older age).

Certainly if Mazy's numbers were HIGH, of course there would be cause for concern. But that is not what I am talking about.

Mazy has blood work annually, so we know what is normal for her. Since I have read so much about the bun/creatinine being higher with raw fed cats, because of the increased protein in the diet, I want to be prepared, if her numbers are higher than last time but still within normal range, to discuss reasonably with my vet that this may not be a cause for worry.

Having information already prepared for her will save a lot of trouble.

Thanks everyone.

otto said:

Certainly if Mazy's numbers were HIGH, of course there would be cause for concern. But that is not what I am talking about.

Mazy has blood work annually, so we know what is normal for her. Since I have read so much about the bun/creatinine being higher with raw fed cats, because of the increased protein in the diet, I want to be prepared, if her numbers are higher than last time but still within normal range, to discuss reasonably with my vet that this may not be a cause for worry.

Having information already prepared for her will save a lot of trouble.

Thanks everyone.

Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense! 

I've read discussions before about this topic and it always sounded to me like they were saying that values outside of what is considered normal for a non-raw fed cat might be normal for a raw fed cat.

Thanks for the clarification!

I think both Carolina and mrsgreenjeens have had cats with BUN and/or creatinine outside of the lab's normal range - but because the urine isn't dilute, it's just something to watch; not something of active concern.

It is when BUN and creatinine are high and urine is dilute that is indicative of kidney failure. Both mrsgreenjeens and Carolina are lowering Phos by using eggshell instead of bone, and mrsgreenjeens is additional substituting some of the meat with egg whites.

LDG said:

I think both Carolina and mrsgreenjeens have had cats with BUN and/or creatinine outside of the lab's normal range - but because the urine isn't dilute, it's just something to watch; not something of active concern.

It is when BUN and creatinine are high and urine is dilute that is indicative of kidney failure. Both mrsgreenjeens and Carolina are lowering Phos by using eggshell instead of bone, and mrsgreenjeens is additional substituting some of the meat with egg whites.

Click to expand...

It seems like what you are saying is that with regards to signs of kidney insufficiency it doesn't matter whether the cat is raw fed or not. If the vet, using the same criteria as used for a non-raw fed cat, determines insufficiency then insufficiency exists. Right?

I'm trying to understand because mine are getting close to geriatric age and I want to know if I need to talk to my vet about the possibility that raw feeding might cause a "false positive" of sorts.

Yes, exactly. My vet had already looked it up when we began the annuals and blood work on cats after they'd been on raw. She basically confirmed the information in the studies - BUN and Creatinine will most likely not rise above normal, but it does depend on the average at the labs. The rise in relation to where they were before wouldn't be of concern. Ours all rose, but not above "normal" at the lab they use.

Tuxedo's hematocrit is on the rise. He's the one that had an autoimmune disease that caused anemia. Since being on raw, his HCT has risen from 38% to 45% - though every time he gets blood work it's a little higher.

So yes - high (or higher than their normal) BUN and Creatinine are often a "red flag" for a vet. And in that sense, can be seen as a "false positive" for kidney health concern. Despite that, if urine specific gravity remains normal, then there should be no cause for actual concern.

LDG said:

I think both Carolina and mrsgreenjeens have had cats with BUN and/or creatinine outside of the lab's normal range - but because the urine isn't dilute, it's just something to watch; not something of active concern.

It is when BUN and creatinine are high and urine is dilute that is indicative of kidney failure. Both mrsgreenjeens and Carolina are lowering Phos by using eggshell instead of bone, and mrsgreenjeens is additional substituting some of the meat with egg whites.

Click to expand...

Mine was outside of the range, and it is high for all cats.
My vet is not concerned at all, and sees this for cats and dogs fed raw, or high protein in his practice.
He is not taking only these numbers when talking CRF.
The most important thing to him is the PET - is he/she doing ok? happy? What's the behavior? Any problems? Does the pet eat, pee, poop, play normally? Is it happy and active? Appetite? Coat? Eyes? Is it losing weight? My vet consider all these things and the diet before making any assumption and I am very glad for it. Those were the conversations I have had with him so far.
That's my vet anyways....... As far as the urine, yes - not dilute - that would be more of a concern.... I generally do a senior panel and a urinalysis even though they are not seniors because I know the numbers will be high and most importantly, I want a baseline for when they become seniors on raw :heart3:

I can't say my vet is an expert in raw, but he is very familiar with it. He is pro raw, he holds meetings with his peers about it, and has many patients who feed raw. I trust him and I trust when he tells me to not be concerned about it.

When he tells me to be concerned about it, I will be.

So far he has told me the reason for the higher numbers is the break down of the higher protein content - perfectly normal and not harmful......

I just got back from a visit with my vet. She said that the higher BUN and creatinine numbers in cats whether they are fed a high protein diet or not aren't by themselves cause for concern. They are just parts of a bigger picture.

mschauer said:

I just got back from a visit with my vet. She said that the higher BUN and creatinine numbers in cats fed high protein diets aren't by themselves cause for concern. They are just parts of a bigger picture.

Click to expand...

same thing my vet tells me :nod:

Thanks for your replies, everyone, this is all very helpful. Mazy's six month check up, with her annual blood work and UA, is at the end of this month. My vet is very supportive of my feeding a partial raw diet, but I'm not sure how much she is really familiar with it all.

I haven't seen her much in the past 18 months, you know, since Tolly left us.
Between Tolly and Ootay , I used to be a regular there, usually at least once a week, and the way Queen Eva and Mazy were headed, I might still be, if I hadn't taken that first step into raw feeding.

It was all those transition threads in early 2012 that helped me feel brave enough to tip toe in. I am grateful to all of you. But as a result of better health for my three precious girls, I no longer have the opportunity to have those long chats with my vet.

otto said:

Thanks for your replies, everyone, this is all very helpful. Mazy's six month check up, with her annual blood work and UA, is at the end of this month. My vet is very supportive of my feeding a partial raw diet, but I'm not sure how much she is really familiar with it all.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you brought it up. There doesn't seem to be any need to worry. The effect a high protein diet has on blood chemistry seems to be a non-issue. 

mschauer said:

I'm glad you brought it up. There doesn't seem to be any need to worry. The effect a high protein diet has on blood chemistry seems to be a non-issue. 

Click to expand...

In fact, it's good reference thread. I'll post a link in the resources thread. :nod:

And Carolina, ultimately, that's it exactly. You treat the cat, not the numbers.