Meal sizes for fatty liver kitty

maewkaew said:

  You might try getting some Fortiflora probiotic powder and sprinkling that on the food.   which can tempt some cats to eat.   

Or try adding a little hot water,  or otherwise warming up the food ( but not so that it is hot -- you don't want to create a worse food aversion by him burning his tongue!) 

I will mention again that Wellness Chicken is 40 more calories per can than Hill's A/D.  but if he is doing OK on the AD as far as his digestion,  if you do decide to try anything different ,  make the change gradual,  at first just mix in a little of the new.  

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 I think the problem is that he already feels full, so I don't know if he could eat a day's worth of food when feeling like that. It's scary that he has gone this many days after being diagnosed. If it were my cat I would be asking how do we know when it is the last resort?

It feels to me like the OP has already tried most ways of feeding him, and he is even avoiding syringe feeding. I would go to the tube feeding, because once he no longer needs the tube there won't be a negative association with regular eating. Right now I think he is probably wondering why his parents are trying to coax him with food while he feels full, whereas the tube feeding he will not associate with eating. He won't like it but it will go away, he will live, and IMO he will know it is a form of medication. 

it's not so much that he feels full it's that he's extremely nauseous. Liver disease is painful and can lead to extreme nausea. would you feel like eating if you felt like puking? but at the same time, food is the answer to heal the liver. 

finnlacey said:

it's not so much that he feels full it's that he's extremely nauseous. Liver disease is painful and can lead to extreme nausea. would you feel like eating if you felt like puking? but at the same time, food is the answer to heal the liver. 

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For me it is difficult to understand this puking as such has not happened to me, also some people get stomach flu regularly, but it is something that never comes to me, no matter how much I visit people with such sickness and they say it should be high probability to get in such cases, but I just don't get such, maybe I'm immune not sure, but I guess it is something horrible.


Hopefully everything goes fine with OP, some

I just got an email prompt that there were responses to this thread so I came back to see how this poor sweet little boy is doing. My thoughts and vibes are with both of you :-( and I hope you are all over the vet to bump it up a notch. I just lost my boy Toby to cancer a month ago, am still grieving, wish I had pushed his oncologist a lot harder when various chemo protocols were not getting him in complete remission. I know the feeling of "well he is doing ok, not perfect but..." and can only share my experience that vets, even specialists, are not necessarily the best communicator and in the end it is you and your pet who will suffer from their omissions :-(. My thoughts and hopes are with you to get the feeding tube and hunker down, as from your description it does seem like you are in last resort territory. It is hard to go out of your comfort zone, Also if you decide to do this, make sure you have the vet techs at the vet's office spend time with you showing you what to do and take you through some feedings. And when you leave, make sure they promise to help you, and that you can bring your kitty back for their help until you feel comfortable doing it. You may also be able to locate a cat sitter or somebody in a rescue group with vet tech and/or tube feeding experience who will come to your home and help you until you feel confident on your own. There are lots of people out there and it is just a matter of finding them. I did that in the case of my first syringe feedings and when I had to first administer subcutaneous fluids for my kitties. 

.I did stop the syringe feedings and Kip began to eat a bit on his own again. Not cat food, of course. That would be too easy. But he showed interest in tuna packed in oil, so I fed him that and he would eat about a can a day, give or take. Sometimes it was a little less, sometimes a bit more. He's drinking on his own again and his behavior is definitely more like normal. The last week or so, he's been showing less interest in the tuna for some reason, and I feel like I have to play guessing games when he decides he has a new favorite food on a given day and I have to try and figure out what that food is. Like a few days ago, he wanted nothing but individually-wrapped cheese slices.
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I don't know if this is just a fluke, but the last couple days, he's been throwing up absolutely everything I give him about 2 minutes after he eats. Doesn't matter what it is - tuna, ground beef, etc. He ate a whole bunch of ground beef today and has kept it down so far, so here's hoping it stays that way.

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He's due to get his liver enzymes re-tested soon, so I'll see whether or not he's improving still. The vets are still really holding out for a dental cleaning/extraction as they feel right now, that's going to be the magic cure for Kip's problems. They even say it would be risky to put him under anesthesia for that long, but that it's my "only option." I'll ask about the feeding tube, though. Kip is eating on his own, but I don't think he's gained any weight. He never had a big appetite even when he was feeling fine, so it's hard to get him to eat. He also does this crap where he wakes me up and begs for food, but then won't eat what I give him. So he's hungry, but not hungry enough to eat? I don't understand. I get that he's sick and his appetite isn't that great, but why would you be so hungry that you beg, and then turn your nose up at food?

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Asking for food then not eating is a very common symptom of nausea. Or it could be mouth pain preventing him from eating. The fact that he's hungry is good, but something is preventing him from eating. That something needs to be figured out and addressed. I'm with your vets on this. He needs the dental extractions done despite the risks. It's a quality of life issue. If he's in pain and won't eat, that won't change until the mouth issues are addressed. Better sooner than later when he gets weaker from lack of food. Unless you are willing to put in a feeding tube for a while to get him healthier and then do the dental surgery?

Also, this cat needs some cat food. Everything you're mentioning that he's been eating is not nutritionally complete. I understand that you're feeding him whatever he will eat right now, but feeding him this stuff longer term is going to cause different problems.

Have you tried ant-nausea meds?

My 16 year old dog had elevated liver enzymes so not fatty liver but did super well after teeth cleaning/tooth extraction. She was actually running around a few hours after having it done

I just can't understand why you don't call the vet now. This is a dangerous situation with him throwing everything up now. Liver disease is life threatening. 

I don't know where you are located, but here in Southern California there is a vet specialty group where the internist who does the endoscope for a feeding tube is in the same building as the dental specialist.  Both procedures can be done at the same time, with your cat only going under one anesthesia.  (That's what my cat did last year).  Even if your cat's ultimate problem is his teeth which may resolve after extractions, he will benefit from the feeding tube, getting the appropriate nutrition into him without the hassle or fear of force feeding.  He can always eat on his own, just have the the feeding tube available for medications or the emergency meal he won't eat. 

The vets we worked with last year said much of the danger of surgery/anesthesia with high risk cats is managed by lots of extra fluids and temperature regulation during the procedure.  Not all regular vets are as knowledgeable or experienced with the higher risk kitties, so take that into consideration when you chose who does the procedures.  I really like my regular vet, but with her blessing, I chose to take my cat to a specialist who does these procedures all the time.  My cat came through the procedure like a trooper.  He used the feeding tube for a few weeks until he fully ate on his own. 

The doctors should also be cognizant of how antibiotics or other medications given to your cat are metabolized.  There are some that are metabolized via the liver, which will add more stress to an already stressed organ. 

Many years ago we had a cat that had liver issues, had a dental for extractions at a regular vet, was given meds that caused more liver issues, and died under care of that vet.  She was at the vets for several days because she wasn't eating after the dental.  They kept giving her fluids and were waiting for her to eat on her own.  Incompetence!  They finally put in a feeding tube, but said it had to sit for 24 hours before food could be given.  That was a few hours too many for our little girl.  I wish I knew then what I know now.  She at least would have had better care and a better fighting chance. 

Please check the availability of the vet specialty groups in your area and discuss with your vet the option of getting both procedures done at the same time.  Again, I wish your cat the best. 

There is no fluke, if he has been diagnosed with fatty liver disease, he is getting more ill. I can't imagine how a dental is going to fix that. I have not heard of dental cleaning fixing fatty liver?

I do see a pattern of not eating, which is typically fatal, and am mystified as to why time is going by and there is no aggressive treatment. He may as well be just laying there slowly bleeding. Am not sure why feeding tube option, life saving, is being ignored, how is it that the vets said it was a last measure, but now instead dental is the last measure?

Tuna is missing essential nutrients.

I don't understand either. This thread is making me want to jump through the computer screen to get the kitty and take it to the vet myself to get the feeding tube put on. I am sorry, but I have to say.... reading this thread is watching this cat slowly walking towards his death. A death that can be avoided.
I feel that someone has to say it like it is - DO something, or your cat is going to die.

Here! Here! I wanted to say all of that also but was afraid to. But I cannot understand any of this and am frankly very upset by it all. 

BarbB said:

There is no fluke, if he has been diagnosed with fatty liver disease, he is getting more ill. I can't imagine how a dental is going to fix that. I have not heard of dental cleaning fixing fatty liver? ...

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He may need the dental to help him be more comfortable eating, but fatty liver is a disease in and of itself with its own treatment (food!).

As has been pointed out, walking away from food is nausea - not pain, because he hasn't chewed anything yet. There are two different things going on here.
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Carolina said:

I don't understand either. This thread is making me want to jump through the computer screen to get the kitty and take it to the vet myself to get the feeding tube put on. I am sorry, but I have to say.... reading this thread is watching this cat slowly walking towards his death. A death that can be avoided.

I feel that someone has to say it like it is - DO something, or your cat is going to die.

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It's just that we (members of TCS in general) have provided this advice to others who haven't taken it, and then there's the inevitable locked thread and a post in the bridge... ...and it's just heart breaking for everyone.

At the very least, please reconsider syringe feeding him food with proper nutrition - and the amount of food required to meet his daily need. :heart2:

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I just don't understand why the OP said earlier that a feeding tube was a last resort/final measure and that her cat was diagnosed with fatty liver. I thought for a minute I was on the wrong thread because now the OP is talking about dental as a last measure by the vets. This makes no sense to me at all. 

I am wondering what is the diagnosis now, and why they see a dental as a final measure. The fact of so much time going by while the kitty gets worse, I think has everyone who has replied, very upset, because everything so far that has been discussed is completely treatable. Money does not seem to be an issue. So why is kitty not getting any treatment.

At the very least, Kip didn't throw up his food today. So I guess those were just a bad couple of days. Also, I do think he may be improving. I think it was here I asked about his orange ears and was told it was due to jaundice, and they were quite orange before. Now I can hardly see those blotchy spots, so I would like to take that as a sign that he is improving rather than getting worse.
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And I understand the frustration with seeing someone that asks for advice and doesn't take it, but honestly I just hear so many different things. Some say OMG feeding tube right now! and others say see if he eats something on his own first to see if a feeding tube can be avoided. It's hard knowing who to trust when the vets say one thing and people online say another; you want to trust the vets since they're the pros, but you also want to trust the cat owners who have BTDT. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I'm just trying to say why it can be hard knowing who to believe when I'm being pulled in several directions.

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But I think I need a referral to get Kip a feeding tube at another facility, so what if the local vets won't give me one when they're all lobbying for the teeth cleaning? I want to get his liver re-tested to see how that's doing and go from there. And no, I don't want to reconsider syringe feeding when doing it made Kip worse. He's not like my other cat that was constantly hungry; syringe feeding put him off his food even more, and I would rather not have to get him a long-term feeding tube because force feeding made him hate all food forever. Maybe what he's eating now isn't the most perfect food ever, but he is eating and that's okay short-term.

I like many others are very upset by this thread. I wanted to try one last time to get through to you. A lot of vets in my experience do know about cats and are just out to make as much money as possible. Feeding tubes save lives and feline vets advocate for them (http://www.catinfo.org/?link=feedingtubes). I too went through it with my cat and I am so glad I listend to the advice on here rather than the vet who wanted me to do dangerous surgery for no reason.

Get the cat stabilized on a feeding tube then you can do the dental. One can of tuna a day is not enough food and this cat needs some good balanced food and let his body heal. Just tell the vets this is what you are doing and tell them you will take him somewhere else if they refuse.

RuneKeeper said:

But I think I need a referral to get Kip a feeding tube at another facility, so what if the local vets won't give me one when they're all lobbying for the teeth cleaning?

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In the end, we are the advocates and voices for our kitties.

I haven't read back through the thread, but have you gotten a second opinion from a new vet at a different vet practice? As you want to do follow-up blood work, it's an excellent opportunity. We work with three vets at different practices, they all know about each other, and we keep our cats' records current at all of them by having any work done at one faxed to the others. Each has different strengths, and they know why we see which one for what, and we're straightforward with one when we want a second opinion or to follow a different treatment protocol with another, despite which one diagnosed a condition.

RuneKeeper said:

And no, I don't want to reconsider syringe feeding when doing it made Kip worse. He's not like my other cat that was constantly hungry; syringe feeding put him off his food even more

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...I understand that the syringe feeding can create a food aversion. But that's a very basic symptom of fatty liver anyway.

RuneKeeper said:

...and I would rather not have to get him a long-term feeding tube because force feeding made him hate all food forever.

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Perhaps you haven't done enough of your own research on FL yet. But he will eat normally again when the fatty liver disease resolves (and a dental has been done?)

And the whole point of a feeding tube is so that you can get proper nutrition into him without syringe feeding him. ! Yes, a syringe is being used with the tube, but it is not at all the same process as assist feeding.

And if he is getting fed properly with a tube, you dont need to rely on hunger for him to eat. This is how fatty liver disease is cured, and as his liver repairs and heals, he will begin to resume normal eating patterns.

The problem is not that syringe feeding put him off his food forever. That's like saying the litter box causes pain, when in fact the isdue is a UTI. The problem is the disease.

It's great that he's eating on his own. But how much effort are you expending to get him to eat a diet that doesn't support his nutritional need? The point of the feeding tube is to make it easier for both of you.:heart3: And when the disease heals, he will eat on his own again. A feeding tube simply speeds up the process.

I am glad he's feeling better and keeping food down. I hope it continues, I really do.

If you have a firm diagnosis of fatty liver based on a blood test, then you can call another vet and tell them "My cat has been diagnosed with fatty liver. My current vet would like to do a dental but I believe at this point he may need a feeding tube."

Then ask if you can get an appointment and tell them you will bring his records, or have them call the other vet for his records. 

As long as the vet you call does surgeries, they should be able to treat and add a feeding tube without any referral. Even most specialty centers will take your kitty and do a feeding tube so long as you have the records showing the fatty liver diagnosis. 

Here is a link that discusses feeding tubes http://www.catinfo.org/?link=feedingtubes. It doesn't go into the kitty's throat so you would not have to worry about the kitty acquiring a food aversion while being tube fed. 

There is another link on here, maybe somebody (Laurie?) can post it- remember the kitty who had the blockage and had a feeding tube for a short time? That poster provided a lot of pictures. Maybe that would help the OP here. I will look for it too. 

I'm sure the fact that he has this diagnosis is what has everyone freaked. So many people who have a lot of experience with cats have seen or know of many cats that have died from it only because it was not noticed or the owner did not understand in time. Treatment is urgent as each step further along the way is closer to death or permanent liver damage. 

Here is the other thread involving a feeding tube http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245013/...ry-lethargic-wont-eat-wont-drink-vomiting/120. This poor kitty had a blockage and got fatty liver and needed a feeding tube plus surgery to remove the rubber door stop. He survived though! 

The post with pictures of his feeding tube is post #125 of the thread, and if you continue on to post #155 they discuss feeding him at home and how it all worked out over time. 

Good luck. And as for what is wrong with your cat- If it is the same vet and they switched gears on you and somehow ended up to dental, I would say what the heck, Because it just doesn't make sense. Your vet should only make the fatty liver diagnosis based on a test, and the vet should only make a diagnosis of your cat no longer having of fatty liver based on a blood test. 

No matter what else the vet tells you, if your cat has a fatty liver diagnosis and has not been declared cured, that is a big problem. :-(

I wonder if I could get a referral to a different facility. The closest advanced facilities to me are in Ithaca, NY, which has two big veterinary hospitals that I know of: Cornell and Colonial. Colonial is full of arseholes that charge way too much and don't even offer payment plans (they demand 50% of the bill up front and the other 50% when you claim your pet), and they will do a million and a half unnecessary tests because they like to ignore vet records and do more bloodwork no matter how recently it was done elsewhere and they always want to do ultrasounds and CAT scans to look for other things that don't even exist before even considering doing what you ask them to do. If they even listen to you, that is. I spent in excess of $4000 for my Caspurr's care there that included a CAT scan, endoscopy, feeding tube (that had to come right back out) and I think an ultrasound. Sooooo I might try Cornell because Colonial sucks.

And what I meant before was I didn't want my Kip to end up with the long-term feeding tube that goes directly into the stomach just because of me syringe feeding him and irreparably losing all interest in all food. If there is any cat that would develop such a food aversion, it is Kip. I would not be opposed to a more short term tube, preferably one that doesn't go into the nose since I think that would drive him nuts.

Also, I think I am going to have to refrain from posting here. I'm not entirely fond of being lectured - I get that more than enough from everyone else I know about every other aspect of my life. So I think this may be my last post here, and if I need further advice, I will seek it elsewhere. I thank everyone for their advice and support, but I think I will continue learning more about possible treatment options on my own and hope that the information I find is accurate.