Meal sizes for fatty liver kitty

oh I see.

My vet did suggest a feeding tube, but only as a last resort if syringe feeding isn't getting good enough results. I'll be finding out Friday if the feedings are doing anything and then go from there. Thankfully I'm done with my thesis now, so I can dedicate more time to Kippy's care. Why in the world would his illness be getting worse if he's getting food in his belly? On average, I'd say that I can get about one can of A/D into him, plus some water and a little cream. I just could not feed him every 2 hours and do my homework, there aren't enough hours in the day. But I'll see if the feedings have made any kind of a difference.

At the very least, I've stopped the force feedings as per another vet's suggestion, and Kip has begun picking at food on his own again. But it's hit and miss. The only things I've had much luck getting him to eat are cat treats, boiled chicken and milk, and none of them are a guarantee. The vet gave me all these different kinds of Hill's food to try and Kip isn't interested in any of them. He also somehow managed to lose weight during the days he was being force fed. How's that work?! He lost six ounces in a week when he was getting about a can of A/D in him a day, give or take fractions of a can. But he was also much more stressed when I force fed him.

I want to force feed him so I at least know he's getting calories, but I know it's just going to put him off eating on his own even more. He's happier now that I've stopped, but in order for him to get better, I know he's going to need calories in excess. The vet seems really hung up on getting his teeth cleaned because he seems to think Kip's teeth are causing his liver problems, which doesn't make any sense. And I worry if I get him a feeding tube, the people at the larger facility are going to have to do MORE bloodwork and keep him overnight and do ultrasounds and X-rays and all kinds of other unnecessary BS rather than just giving him a bloody feeding tube and whatever things are necessary for insertion. Sorry, but I think a lot of vets just like to say "hey let's do four dozen tests and charge you thousands of dollars" because they like to take advantage of the owners' love for their pets in order to make $$$. It's sickening. You cannot tell me that when a cat has bloodwork on Tuesday, he needs more on Thursday of that same week. Boy, anything to make their paychecks a little fatter. (Sorry, I'm a little irate because the vets who have been seeing Kip are giving me a lot of stupid answers and telling me to get all kinds of testing done that isn't necessary).
 

Unfortunately my Kippy gets more stressed than most cats I've owned and I worry that subjecting him to all this stuff will just make him worse. I don't know what would be more stressful: force feeding him by hand or making him stay overnight in an animal hospital with IVs and a feeding tube and all that. I'm glad he's eating anything at all, but I don't think he's getting enough calories in him and he turns his nose up at just about everything.

My understanding is that loss of appetite because of fatty liver works so that cat thinks he is full and does not eat, because thinking of being full.

When force feeding, cat is not eating because constantly thinking he is full, but it is good that he eats a bit when not force feeding.

However that is what I think, without any solid proof about it.

I think that condition is such when one can't think much about stressing cat, as only way to get liver functioning again is to have constantly food in cat's stomach, it is kind of kick starting the liver, it can take even two weeks of force feeding.

I don't know why another vet has advised to stop force feeding though, that sounds bit odd. Is cat weak or are ears and gums yellow(ish)?

About weight, my cat became so skinny that I felt spine trough skin, like a skeleton he was, he did start to gain weight after he started eating on his own, but he did became slowly stronger when I force fed him, vet visit was so hard on him that it took many days until he could walk again. He lost very fast weight and became weak in few days, when he got sick.

Impossible to know all things from other end of the monitor of course, I only know how I managed to get my cat trough that fatty liver.

I'm not sure if Kip is weak or lethargic. He can walk and hop up on things, but he does like to lay down a lot...not always to sleep. His gums are a little on the pale side from him not drinking like he should, and his ears are a bit orange on the inside, but I don't know if that's always been like that or not. I just am concerned in my kitty's case that force feeding is doing more harm than good. He was extremely lethargic and would run from me when I force fed him; Kippy stresses out easily and I worry that force feeding will just put him off his food eve further. Thankfully he did start picking at food again when I stopped syringe feeding, and I found that he reeeeeally likes tuna in oil. He ate a whole can today in one sitting.

The heavy cream was a flop, he wouldn't even touch it. If he does get better, I sure hope he'll actually eat catfood again. I worry he's gonna be spoiled by all these treats and I'll have a healthy, but picky eater on my hands.

I'm sorry to tell you this but your kitty is now jaundiced and is developing hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease). He needs to see a vet immediately as this is life threatening. I know because mine had it and almost died from it. 

I already know he has hepatic lipidosis, that was the diagnosis a week or so ago, but honestly I don't know if that orange was there before or not. No other part of his body is yellow or orange. That third eyelid was a little yellow for a bit, but it seems to be white again. He's already been to the vet several times (with his most recent liver panel showing slight improvement) and the current plan is to just try to get him to eat as much as possible.

One more food question: Would milk be considered food or fluid that can hydrate? He still won't drink water, but he is drinking milk. I just don't know if that counts as fluid or food for a kitty.

RuneKeeper said:

I already know he has hepatic lipidosis, that was the diagnosis a week or so ago, but honestly I don't know if that orange was there before or not. No other part of his body is yellow or orange. That third eyelid was a little yellow for a bit, but it seems to be white again. He's already been to the vet several times (with his most recent liver panel showing slight improvement) and the current plan is to just try to get him to eat as much as possible.

One more food question: Would milk be considered food or fluid that can hydrate? He still won't drink water, but he is drinking milk. I just don't know if that counts as fluid or food for a kitty.

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Cats are quite often lactose intolerant so milk might cause diarrhea which would remove liquid from the body, so that might not be best option.

Have you tested water that is bit warm? It is bit silly, but if there is cold and warm water my cats more often pick that warm water.

Also I have heard about adding tiny bit salt to water.

Tuna is also not safe for longer periods of time, check this for example:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=450509

This might shock a bit, but I recommend reading:
http://www.cat-world.com.au/steatitis-yellow-fat-disease-in-cats

Have you tried to give him ground meat? I give that sometimes, but it needs additive, bone powder, which you can get from pet stores. That would be lot better than tuna if he would just eat that, adding bit of oil might make it more interesting.

Edit: there is one problem with ground meat too, as cat in such condition should get as little fat as possible, most ground meats sold have high fat content, so finding low fat ground meat is bit challenging. Maybe chicken with bit of oil might work better than chicken alone.

There is also high protein cat foods, but to get him eat them might be a challenge, I had not much luck with those, wet canned cat food that my cat had eat as kitten worked best, but it took long time of force feeding and offering him wet food before force feeding until he chose to eat by his own.
It is not fun situation to be in, feeling of being so helpless was quite heavy, when force feeding seemed to do nothing, but there was not much to do. However when cat started eating by itself it did start slow recovery, took more than a month until he was somehow usual himself, but even longer to fully build weight.

Salt is not good for kitties, I wouldn't be adding that to anything. 

I'm so sorry about Kip. :heart2:

So is he getting the equivalent of 5.5 ounces of wet food into him daily at this point? If not, I'd be chatting with the vet about a feeding tube. If assist feeding him is too stressful, and he's not eating enough on his own, given that enough food daily is the ONLY treatment, I would do one or the other rather than continuing to try to coax him into eating what he should. One of the symptoms of fatty liver is not wanting to eat. Once their livers begin to repair, they will begin eating on their own again.

finnlacey said:

Salt is not good for kitties, I wouldn't be adding that to anything. 

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Large amounts is bad, tiny amount not so bad. I did read recently here from mixture of salt water and oil I think it was, which was meant to be something that makes cat drink.

Amount was not much of salt, I doubt one would really taste that little and when not given all the time should not be such bad, like human tuna too, it does kill the cat they say, but small amounts don't really harm.

Just not good as regular diet and certainly not good if taken lot of it, like a tea spoon, way too much.

I can't remember if you answered this, but have you asked the vet about cyproheptadine? It was a godsend for my cat who went off food. Also, at this point I agree that a feeding tube may be your best bet. Not sure if you saw this already but here is a great post on them  written by a vet (http://www.catinfo.org/?link=feedingtubes) 

I don't mean to be harsh. Stop wasting your money and get that feeding tube inserted NOW! I lost a cat this year from this disease. Long story short we didn't notice how sick he was until it was too late b/c we were caring for another cat who had IBD flare up. Spunky hid a lot and only ate for my Mom and when they were alone so I didn't see the change in him.

Honestly the cheapest part of his treatment was the feeding tube. You have to ate fast or you are just wasting your money and time. Your cat needs nutrition asap. A cat can aspirate from syringe feeding if they are terribly sick.
 

My cat ended up with fatty liver when he had a bad flare with IBD.  I didn't even know there was something controversial about feeding tubes.  I took him in for his first appointment with that vet in the evening, he stayed overnight and she did blood tests and an ultrasound the next day.  The following day after the ultrasound she said he needed a feeding tube and I told her to put it in.  He was on the A/D and I was thinning it out half and half with water.  He got 60 ml of the thinned food four times a day and I left food out for him so it would be available when he decided he felt like eating.  Of course he was also on medications but the vet told me eating was the most important thing for him that he actually needed to be overfed. I don't understand being advised to back off on the feeding while he is still sick.

Crazyforinfo is totally correct- Cats with fatty liver can go down VERY FAST and it is time for tough love. The feeding tube is your best bet and also the quickest way to get your cat back into eating normally. Even though it seems extreme, it is totally necessary. You have to make the right health choices for your cat, you are the parent and they are depending on you the same as if it was your small child. They don't know they are going to die without eating, but you have that info and you need to act on it aggressively. The feeding tube will be for a shorter duration and once your cat is eating again it will be distant memory for kitty. 

I have always been hesitant and would shy away from doing the hard things but I found courage when I realized the consequence of not doing the hard stuff would be death for my beloved fur child and also with some of the cats I have fostered. In this case fatty liver is indeed an illness with a very high mortality rate, but that mortality is entirely preventable with a feeding tube and tough love. Do the difficult but right thing for your sweet pet.  I will be praying for your whole family as I know this is extremely hard to do. But please do it  . Everyone here is supporting you.  

I just edited my post because I had said the feeding tube will be more discomfort, what I wanted to say was not for the cat, but that it would feel harder for you to do it but it is the right thing to do.

My cat Mouse is semi-feral and hates to be handled. We had to have a feeding tube inserted to address this same issue - she had fatty liver disease and was not syringe-friendly. I don't believe that a tube is especially uncomfortable for most cats; certainly Mouse did not seem to notice it at all. Feding her with the tube was very straight-forward and not unduly upsetting for her, and after all the handling and attention, she was actually more at ease with us by the end, and remains so to this day. Do not wait. A feeding tube is effective and simple. Please save your cat - you are the only one who can.

Please listen to what everyone is saying here.... The situation is dire. Your cat will die without proper nutrition. Get the feeding tube now.

I did read that even here some vets do that feeding tube, also now I found out that without tube 30% of cats live, with tube 90%, getting enough food in and here they order antibiotics too, is what makes the difference.

For me they did say it is not thing to do, so there is lot of differences with VETs.

But if test show cat is getting better, then I guess situation is such, but will it go better or worse if he is not overfed?

It would be less harm to overfeed, imo. It is very odd that vet says stop force feeding, I'm sure there must be reasons for that, maybe something we don't know, but it sounds very illogical for the situation, where only cure is food.

Thing is, even feeding is stressing the cat, it is better than dead cat and as condition makes cat to not feel hungry, it is very odd to have instruction which will lead cat to have too little food for it's condition. Usually it is instructed to force feed or I guess tube feed, as long until cat is really starting to eat on it's own, this is at least my understanding.

But also it is difficult situation, do one believe Vet that has seen the cat or number of faceless internet persons that have not seen the cat; I would have hard time believing other than Vet myself in such situation.

This is stuff written for vets, bilirubin decrease after about a week by 50% would be then when cat is recovering, but still that does say that it takes weeks to months to feed by tube, without tube force feeding would be what is needed, but I can't spot anything about letting cat eat by own after relatively short period of time, which makes me bit confused. Maybe let Vet read that link and ask opinion based on that, it might explain things a bit?
http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=769095&sk=&pageID=5

Prognosis seems to be impacted by concurrent disease and how early nutritional support is implemented. Recovery rates in cats that do not have serious/fatal underlying conditions are reported to be approximately 80%-88%. Cats making a successful recovery demonstrate a decline by 50% in bilirubin within 7-10 days. Cats that succumb to disease usually do so within 7-10 days. Cats may need to be tube fed for weeks to months requiring owners to be active participants in their recovery. Cats are unlikely to have a recurrence of disease.

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Because cats can develop an aversion to being force fed and it can cause the opposite to happen where they don't go back to eating on their own. It doesn't always happen but it does happen. The feeding tube is different. My Alex was saved by a feeding tube when she had fatty liver disease. I'd do it again in a heartbeat! 

  You might try getting some Fortiflora probiotic powder and sprinkling that on the food.   which can tempt some cats to eat.   

Or try adding a little hot water,  or otherwise warming up the food ( but not so that it is hot -- you don't want to create a worse food aversion by him burning his tongue!) 

I will mention again that Wellness Chicken is 40 more calories per can than Hill's A/D.  but if he is doing OK on the AD as far as his digestion,  if you do decide to try anything different ,  make the change gradual,  at first just mix in a little of the new.