How do you balance out all the evils? (Grains vs Carrageenan vs Vegetables vs Fish...vs Price)

Hello all! First time poster here. Long time lurker and very thankful of all the discussions and info this forum has provided.

I am working out a rotation like most of you do, and going by the principle of everything in moderation. Mix of homemade raw and canned (love the raw feeding forum btw). Fish once a week, very small amount of dry food as treats.

While figuring out my budget, the cats' likings, and balancing out what to avoid/ what could be accepted occasionally and all the while keeping the protein variety (aiming for 3-4 different kinds of meat - Chicken raw [no other sources], Chicken, Turkey, Rabbit, Brushtail for canned, Lamb and Venison for freeze-dried raw - this is only really little, half a cup between the 3 of them for midnight snack), I just wanted to run something by you guys (and ladies) and see how everyone balances these things out...in terms of "evilness".

Avoiding carbs was easy, thanks for Dr. Pierson's chart as you all are familiar with. Grain-free low carb was easy too, with the variety of grain-free options. With the "Truth about Carrageenan" thread, and the "Losing Faith in Grain Free" thread - Grain-free, low-carb, non-fish, no carrageenan, preferable no peas or potatoes...it has become outright impossible lol. Price-wise I am willing to go mid-price range but am not comfortable paying $3 for a 5.5 oz can that has a whole bunch of peas and potatoes( NVI and Fromm). I'm based in Toronto, Canada so the prices may be shocking. Online options for us are non-existent.

I do appreciate the list of carrageenan-free foods that was provided here, but I found some of them either too expensive (Blue Buffalo, NVI) or way too much veggies (Fromm) or they are fish-based and can't be fed too often (Tikicat). Same with pouches...too expensive. I would really want to stick to 5.5oz cans only. Most pouches I looked at were $1.50 for 3oz so it brings it up to ~$3 for 5.5oz can equivalent. Am I looking for the impossible?

Here's one of my dilemmas - there is one food that they like, I am ok with the price, is grain-free, low-carb, but Carrageenan is the 6th ingredient.

Addiction Brushtail ($2.50 per 6.5 oz can)

Brushtail, Venison, Potatoes, Peas, Dried Seaweed, Carregeenan, Cassia Gums, Taurine, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Sulphate, Ferrous Sulphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Calcium Pantothenate, Sodium Selenite, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate

Should I avoid this and go with one that has Ground brown rice, but Carrageenan much lower in the list? (14th to be exact).

Natural Balance Ultra - Chicken and Liver Pate ($1.70 per 5.5oz can)

Chicken, Chicken Liver, Chicken Broth, Carrots, Ground Brown Rice, Natural Flavor, Dried Egg, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Cranberries, Guar Gum, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Carrageenan, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Calcium Pantothenate, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

If I do go with the grain food, it will be the only food in my entire rotation that is not grain-free. Is this ok? Is grain acceptable if in really small amounts or best to avoid completely?

Grains are bad for them, peas and potatoes are indigestible, carrageenan may cause cancer. Should the order be avoid carrageenan first, then avoid grains, then avoid peas and potatos?

Thank you so much in advance for your thoughts!

Wow, I have had this same dilemma since December when I found out how terrible the food I was feeding my cat actually was. I don't have a good answer for you. I'm avoiding it all by feeding Hound & Gatos, the non-carrageenan/ non-fish only varieties of Tiki, Stella & Chewy's freeze-dried raw and home-made cooked and raw with supplements. I would love to feed all home-made raw, but my cat is not cooperating.

I think the answer depends on how your cats are doing/how they react to foods. I would avoid grains/starches first because of how species-inappropriate they are. If carbs are below 10%, then I think you can be careful about the carb sources and be ok. While a lot of fish is bad for many reasons, and some cats can't have any fish because it triggers some kind of inflammation response, there are cats who can have occasional fish without issues. It depends on the cat.

I worry about carrageenan because I think my cat might have IBD issues (occasional vomiting/hairballs) from the terrible food I fed her for 6 years. So now I'm avoiding carrageenan to prevent the problem from getting worse, but your cat(s) may not have this issue.

I think a lot of raw feeders get to this point and decide feeding all raw (or at least home-made) is the way to go. Is that an option for you, to increase the home-made raw?

Oh I know those questions!

Personally, I'd probably want to avoid the carrageenan first. If there's a little bit of grain in your rotation... I don't think it's the end of the world. I try to get my fruits and veggies in, but I eat pizza and cake and ice cream. Funny though, we did find an ice cream we LOVE with no carrageenan.

I threw up my hands and decided to feed mine just homemade raw - especially once I realized it was going to be far more cost-effective. :lol3:

Thanks so much for your input - I totally agree on just going 100% raw! I will keep trying on that. The reason I only do half raw is because I only use chicken and didn't want their diet to be 100% chicken lol (albeit it's a mix of chicken thighs, breasts and heart). We don't have Hare Today for Canada so that cut out a lot of options

I was going by Dr. Pierson's suggestions on just poultry and rabbit...They did not like turkey, but I think I'll add in beef and pork and work to 100% raw food. I had reservations for beef because of hormones and Trichinosis for pork. But I guess the risk of those two is better than having to deal with the mess above, yeah?

I added some beef to Dr. Pierson's recipe, my IBD kitties love it. Hoping to add pork next once I find a source that isn't enhanced. I give them a sardine a few times each week for a nice snack.

Chicken thighs still make up a large chunk of their diet, but I'm incorporating new meats as I can. It's been nice not having to debone chicken thighs!

Wintermelon said:

I was going by Dr. Pierson's suggestions on just poultry and rabbit...They did not like turkey, but I think I'll add in beef and pork and work to 100% raw food. I had reservations for beef because of hormones and Trichinosis for pork. But I guess the risk of those two is better than having to deal with the mess above, yeah?

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Well, as to what's in the meat... when feeding canned food, those hormones and steroids or whatever are in there anyway. When feeding raw, you at least can control which meats you buy.

As to trichinellosis,

Certification by region - Canada has adopted the approach of regional freedom from trichinae in domestic pigs based on a history of testing and finding animals to be negative. This means that most of Canada is considered a "trichinae-free" zone;

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(This is from a USDA piece: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/trichinae/docs/fact_sheet.htm )

From a Canadian government site, I found this: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...is/fact-sheet/eng/1330023015817/1330023110684

In Canada, the primary risk for acquiring trichinellosis is through the consumption of undercooked or raw meat from wildlife species such as bears and walruses.

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But Dr. Pierson's recipe is designed to be used as is, I think. Of course, adding some variety is best, if possible. There's a very similar recipe, but has a bit more flexibility: (Decided to paste a link to Andrya's thread, so you can see the discussion about it too: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/249264/launching-into-homemade-raw ).

LDG, thank you so much for taking the time doing that research for me! I feel lazy and stupid now that I didn't do it myself *ashamed*

Oh and for the beef yeah I agree it's both in canned and raw. I've been avoiding it in cans too. The only reason I kinda "had" to add it to raw was for variety since rabbit (not available) and turkey (they don't like) were out and it leaves me with just chicken lol. I'll do chicken and pork for raw then!
 

Oh how l feel your pain on the $3   5.5oz cans! 

l took a picture of the cats' food cupboard when l decided to go with 100% raw - there was $300 worth of cans in there, and it would only last a month!

lf l'm remembering correctly, my last batch of ground raw cost me $1.52 per day, including all supplements.

That link that Laurie   linked you to was my road to raw. (l have to apologize for deleting the pictures a while ago).

I agree it's completely frustrating that every commercial food I've looked into has one drawback or another. I'm not thrilled with some of the ingredients used in most commercial raw, it's invariably ground anyway which I don't feel is best either. Dogs are so much easier due to their ( generally) larger size, we share at least some similar food sources as dogs. IE Dogs will hunt and eat chickens and even sheep but humans do not eat mice usually. As a result the bone issue is more easily dealt with for raw fed dogs and they can be fed a relatively traditional diet. Not so with cats, unless they are hunting for themselves or you can get them to eat frozen and thawed mice we are forced to feed them in ways they were not designed.

So it's either, species inappropriate ingredients like rice and corn or additives as thickeners and binding agents because we are grinding up the food, or too high of a fat content so the company can save money but still say it's 95% "meat". It's exasperating. It sometimes makes me feel like I shouldn't have gotten cats because I can't feed them the way I think they deserve. I can't just let them hunt to feed themselves without risking their safety. UGH!

They finally are selling the non-fish favours of tiki cat in Toronto at most global pet foods. Mine love them, but they are only chicken so not sure if that is helpful. I also feed weruva too ( the non-carregeenan flavours which they also like, but tiki cat is their favourite). Have you tried hound and [font=verdana, geneva]gato? They also sell that at global. Also Global has a ton of different raw brands and some like carnivora is just ground meat and I think it is kind of like hare today, but more pricey because everything is up here. The bigger global pet foods have more of a selection both the one near high park and the one in liberty village have a huge selection and sell the non-fish flavours of tiki cat. [/font]