This cat is psychotic. How can I calm her down? (She's pregnant.)

You ask about her runny stool now. when they had big litters and ate up all afterbirds, they can get diarrhea.  so some tells, dont eat more than 4 afterbirths...

What a story about your fight for Fighters life!  A model to follow.

Interesting example of she eating well only when you are there - she trusts you, and your presecnce is the only time when she dares to be a little less protective...

Last, there is a saying, aftercontractions.   I  hope this is what she has...

Good luck!

ps. Try to get dextrose (glucose sugar), useful for very weak kittens and so...

Or moms losing forces...   Or human atletes or school pupils at long tirying out tests...

I read (and thoroughly enjoyed) your story last night and have been thinking about Little Fighter all day! So glad to hear he is doing well, along with Roxy and the other babies.

Wow. What a story!

I am so, so, so glad you were there for the birth! Just another example of why it's so important to be present. I too had a litter where the Queen was just too exhausted to do much and I had to hand deliver three of the five kittens. My guess is she broke the sacs early (otherwise they wouldn't have been live births) you just didn't see it. Had you not been there to deliver them they likely wouldn't have survived. It sounds like you did everything exactly right (especially with the little fighter) and that several of these babies owe their lives to you. Incredible job well done! 

I get why you bottle fed the little one- is he back on the nipple now? He may need supplemental feedings but try to get him to nurse with the others as much as possible. This is why the daily weight is so important. It's okay that you couldn't get all their weights right after birth but from here on out try to weigh each at the same time everyday on a scale that (preferably) weighs in grams. Daily gains should be 10-15g though some days with more or less is normal. Any weight loss and you should call the vet to be sure it's not from an infection, But, with such a large litter it's not uncommon to have to supplement some. If they are otherwise healthy then they may just need a little extra to get them back on track. 

Since Bottle Feeding is likely going to happen now and again in the future be sure you watch some YouTube videos to make sure you are doing it right. The kitten should be flat on their belly with their head slightly raised- the same position they would nurse from Mom in. While it may be instinctual to hold them like you would a human baby this can lead to them getting milk in the lungs. So, be careful! This article may also provide some helpful tips (though you don't have orphaned kittens so many of the things you don't need to worry about): http://www.thecatsite.com/a/hand-rearing-kittens . To avoid extra stress on Roxy if you do have to do this make sure you do it where she can see you. If you take one of the kittens from the room she will likely panic so make sure she can always see them and what you are doing with them (getting a weight, feeding, ect).  

To answer some of your other questions: 

I agree with the vet on the diarrhea- sometimes it happens after delivery so just keep an eye on her for a couple of days. If it continues call them back for further advisement. If it continues you can give her a diet of boiled chicken (or all meat baby food) mixed with cooked white rice and warm water. Though, I would check with the vet first. While this will firm her up it doesn't have enough calories to sustain her. If you do it only do so for 2 or 3 days maximum. 

As far as the eating: Cats are social eaters and many prefer to eat when someone is around. In a big way Roxy is indicating to you how much she trusts you and how much you comfort her. It could also be that because she trusts you so much she feels comfortable letting her guard down and having a few minutes to herself because she knows you are looking out for her brood. Being there for a delivery definitely increases the bond between feline and human in a way no other experience does. Especially given how hands on she wanted you during the birth demonstrates that she knows you are there to support her. Given where you started that is no small feat! 

Her "contraction like" pushes: Did she deliver a placenta with every fetus? Cats don't have a big afterbirth like humans do- just one placenta per kitten. If she didn't deliver them all that's probably what this is. If it doesn't come out in the next 24 hours she is going to need to see the vet, as a retained placenta can quickly cause a life threatening infection. 

Overall, their weights are really good. 80 is a hair low but given there are eight kittens it's not bad at all. I agree with keeping them closed in the crate for the time being. Given her past behavior Roxy is at a high risk for attempting some dangerous den moves. Really for the first few weeks I think you are fine to keep them confined all the time- maybe just open the door so she can stretch her legs when you are in the room to watch. It's not ideal but it's better than someone getting hurt! 

Yes, you will have more questions so ask away as you need to but so far your gut instincts have been right on. Stay in close contact with your vet (who seems to be very invested in Roxy and her kittens) and don't hesitate to call and ask them questions too. It's good practice for anyone with kittens to keep a log for each but in your case with so many it's especially important. Monitor their daily weights, when the reach milestones (eyes opened, act), as well as anything else you do with them (ex: if you bottle feed one. Track how much you gave at what time and the reason for doing so) just in case they need to be seen later. These notes are absolutely invaluable to a vet and can be helpful for you to look back on. 

You did amazing and I am so impressed. Keep up the good work! 

wow! congrats and well done roxy :-)

I'm overjoyed to announce that we've made it the first five days without any fatalities! Everyone is gaining a healthy 10grams a day, and Little Fighter is back on Roxy's nipple. He got onto the nipple the same day that he was on the formula - it seems all he needed was that extra kick in the rear to get him rolling. He's been wrestling, feebly but still, for spots on the teat and he's been partaking in that weird sissy-slap fight that these kittens do over the nipple. It's great! Weighing them is turning out to be quite the difficult task. I'm glad that you enjoyed our experience; I still can't believe how difficult it was to get Little Fighter going. What I do know is that s/he has a permanent home with me no matter what. I can't thank you enough for the praise.

I've gone and watched some videos and read that page, and while I held Little Fighter as flat as I could in my palm while I tried to get him to nurse I will most definitely make sure that they're flat on their bellies if I have to intervene and bottle feed, which I might end up having to. At first I was keeping just a page with a collection of weights in a list (from kit 1 to kit 8)  but after reading your posts I'll be separating their information into an individual page per each kitten and getting a whole lot more detailed with their daily updates. It should be fun to reflect on in the future, and I can't imagine how thrilled my vet will be to have the information if we end up needing to take the kittens to the vet for any reason before the shots.

Onto Roxy momma. Her runs have cleared up for the most part - she still seems to have loose bowels (like the logs(I know gross, but I gotta keep an eye on everything right?) seem loose), but the runs are mostly gone. It's been five days, but I haven't given her any boiled chicken. I can always give her boiled chicken, we just wanted to try and let nature run its course. Should we try dextrose/boiled chicken if her stool doesn't firm up, or is the kitten chow keeping her stool like this where boiled chicken wouldn't do much to combat it? Like I said: Runs are gone, stool is soft/loose.

She's still eating the most significant amounts of food while I'm out there, I try to keep her bowl full at all times so that if we have to go anywhere she's not waiting very long for a refill. However when we leave and come back there won't even be a nose indent in her bowl, when I go out there she plows down a good amount of food before strutting around the sun room to stretch herself, or bat around her toy mice. Until her kittens squeak consistently, that is. If they start squeaking especially pathetically, she gives up searching for a way out of the house or exploring her room and tends to the kittens. Thankfully it's a trust thing and not something bad that she's only eating significant amounts while I'm out there. She does have access to food and water at all times.

She didn't push out any placenta with the kittens whose sacks tore early, to my knowledge, which is why I thought they were born without them at first. (Until I read that they'd be dead otherwise.) But the contraction like pushes were almost definitely to expel the placenta, the next morning there was fresh-ish blood in the box and the remnants of the placenta she pushed out. Her stomach is like a balloon that was blown up to full capacity and then manually deflated, and she hasn't come down with any infection like symptoms so I think she's gotten all of the placenta/kittens out of her.

We have every plan of keeping our vet updated; she actually called us on Monday to check in on Roxy, hopeful for the news of Roxy having burst. She shrieked happily when we told her how many there were and promised to stop by with pictures later in the afternoon. We were the talk of the vet's office and many of the vet techs came up front to check out the photos, it was wonderful. She's extended the invitation for us to come in any time and has put dibs on being this litter's vet. It's awesome.

Oh! And if you're wondering about the nipple she bit, she's not even pushing the kittens away from it. At first you could watch her face as she seemed to grit her teeth and deal with it, but now it seems healed completely up. She's one awesome momma kitty! (Granted this is the first momma cat that I'm old enough to remember being around.)

Again, I can not thank you all for your praise and your invaluable help! I'll still be keeping you posted and updated. For now, meet the litter. (The photos where they're held by the hand - were all snapped while I was putting them back in their box; they weren't suspended in that position for more than two-three seconds at the most.) Kittens in front of a claimed sign are claimed, kittens held in my hand are unclaimed. Except for Little Fighter, who Roxy is *so* protective of she won't let him even leave their box, whereas with everyone else she'll sit/stand by outside of the kennel so I can measure and photo each other kitten individually without having to literally crawl into the kennel. I'm sure you can imagine how much easier it is.









The last photo in this line is Little Fighter! He has gotten so very big and he has some cool markings. He is almost a twin to kit 2 (second kitten born) in the photo right above him. The only difference is that kit 2 is darker in color and bigger in measurements.

Well done, they are gorgeous

Oooh! I've been waiting patiently for baby pictures I like the third photo with Roxy making sure there is no funny business going on! They are precious and you have done such an amazing job- you should be very proud of Roxy and of yourself. Little Fighter looks very comfortable in your hand, it almost looks like he has a little satisfied smile on his face. Adorable!

RoxyMomma said:

 I can always give her boiled chicken, we just wanted to try and let nature run its course. Should we try dextrose/boiled chicken if her stool doesn't firm up, or is the kitten chow keeping her stool like this where boiled chicken wouldn't do much to combat it? Like I said: Runs are gone, stool is soft/loose.

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Oh they are just sssooooo stinkin cute!!!!! I have a super soft spot for Orangies- I can't believe you have 5! And, the markings on the little fighter are quite stunning. Roxy may have some attitude she makes some seriously adorable babies! 

I don't know that I would put her on the boiled chicken and rice diet if you don't have to. I doubt it's the kitten chow keeping her stool soft if she was on it before delivery with no problems. I think her bowels are just taking their time on getting back to normal. If anything, I may give her some boiled chicken in addition to her normal food. With a lactating Queen you want to be extra careful about making sure she is getting enough calories (especially when she has 8 extra bellies to fill). If she still had severe diarrhea I think it would be worth trying in an effort to stabilize her, but if her stools are just loose I would maybe just keep watching her for a few days and hope nature does finish running it's course. You could also give her a little canned pumpkin (not the baking kind, just regular, plain pumpkin with no additives). It also works great in terms of regulating the digestive track and can be given as a supplement to her regular diet. 

Just as a side note, the dextrose on the gums is great as an appetite stimulant but doesn't do much for diarrhea (at least not that I know of). She's clearly eating fine so IMO there is no need to give this to her. 

As always I was happy to read your update. Keep 'em coming (that is if you have any time left to do anything other than constantly counting and chase kittens around)! 

Hey!

First of all, thank you all! Roxy has some pretty awesome genetics from what we've seen, both with Vlad and Odin (the two older kittens in an earlier post) and this current litter. She and the male that (we think) was keeping her pregnant made an awesome breeding pair, not that I'm saying let's go breed her again. We were surprised to get five orange kittens, we thought we'd have more black ones. Ah nature, you sure do know how to keep a person on their toes. 

happybird said:

Oooh! I've been waiting patiently for baby pictures

I like the third photo with Roxy making sure there is no funny business going on!

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Thank you! Roxy does spend her time lounging on another part of the sheet while I work on taking individual pictures for prospective owners and myself. She has the tolerance for about four individual photos before she either gets up and cleans them (as in photo three) or goes back to her box with a firm meow toward me. I am a very happy/proudish person. EB you could haaas one if they weren't all  blindly claimed! Where blindly claimed means that people have dibs but haven't picked.. ;P

Alright, so  I won't worry too much about loose stool and go giving her rice and chicken. I'll remember to grab some plain pumpkin next time we're at the store!

Okay, here's my next couple of questions. I know that kitten eyes open after nine days (maybe a little before) and that they shouldn't be exposed to bright lights right away. If I wanted to keep up with my daily photographing of them, how would I achieve decent lighting without exposing them to bright lights? And is there anything specific I should look for in each kitten's eyes to determine if everything is okay or if something is wrong? Clouds, spots, anything? I know that kittens have some pretty strange looking eyes at the start? If so, any *personal* advice for determining these things?

Sorry for the short update, but I'll be back with more baby photos in about a week.

RoxyMomma said:

Okay, here's my next couple of questions. I know that kitten eyes open after nine days (maybe a little before) and that they shouldn't be exposed to bright lights right away. If I wanted to keep up with my daily photographing of them, how would I achieve decent lighting without exposing them to bright lights? And is there anything specific I should look for in each kitten's eyes to determine if everything is okay or if something is wrong? Clouds, spots, anything? I know that kittens have some pretty strange looking eyes at the start? If so, any *personal* advice for determining these things?

Sorry for the short update, but I'll be back with more baby photos in about a week.

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Yes, they will start to open anywhere between 7-14 days, though it's most commonly right in the middle. If one goes early or late it's nothing to be concerned about. I had one kitten wait until he was 3 weeks (21 days) before even attempting to open his eyes and he had no vision problems. They will start slowly and may have one eye open before the other- again, all normal. Don't force them to open them or try to "help the process along." It will happen naturally. 

For pictures, I always just do normal backlighting. Whatever lamps or other lighting you use should be fine, and just keep the flash off of the camera. Their eyes do look funny at first and even though they are open they aren't seeing much- it's all still very blurry and out of focus. So, things like pupils going in all different directions, ect is all normal for these next few weeks. 

The biggest thing to watch for with eyes is any kind of gunk/discharge as that can be a sign of infection. If it happens wipe the eye with a warm, wet washcloth and call your vet for further advisement. I've never seen anything like cloudy eyes or spots in the eye but if I did I think I would double check with a vet to be on the safe side. 

Because they can "sort of" see, now is the time that they start exploring everything with taste. They can make out that something is there and will further explore it with their mouths. So, make sure there are no small objects on the floor that they can ingest, and make sure Roxy is on a non-clumping litter. Clumping litter, when ingested (and believe me, they will ingest it) expands and can cause a life threatening blockage. So, non-clumping litter from here on out! 

Things start to pick up from here so brace yourself for kitten craziness. One day they will be glorified little hamsters that don't do much and the next, rambunctious kittens who want to get into everything! Start kitten proofing now if you haven't already done so. 

Finally, I just wanted to make sure you are aware that I am for the most part off the boards right now. I'm checking in every so often but not regularly. So, don't take it personally if you don't see me commenting as much. 

Hi EB!

Many thanks for all of your advice, so far most of the kittens have begun opening their little peepers, no one has discharge or anything funny in their eyes so I think everything is going pretty smoothly right now. Kitten 7(Blue) had both eyes completely open on day nine, so he started early or his eyes opened really fast. Hah! Everyone else is working on opening up to see the world, but Kitten 1(white) is a little hesitant. It'll be fun to say hi when he does.

Roxy has been out of clumping litter in the kennel since the first time I posted - we thought she was closer to popping then and were worried she'd give birth in the middle of the night with as little as she seemed to trust us then. We didn't want to spell the death of the kittens by being unprepared so we changed her to a cheaper version of Yesterday's News, the name eludes me right now. For now she *does* have a clumping litter in her second litter box on the other side of the room for when she goes out to stretch her legs and lounge away from the babies, but I will change it out the day that we open the kennel doors to be on the safe side. I totally didn't even think about kittens ingesting clumping litter though, scary, scary stuff!

In the kennel there isn't anything exciting for the kittens to get their mouths on other than maybe the cardboard of their nesting box, Roxy is doing excellent at keeping the kennel clean, or at the very least, the nest itself clean. I will definitely get busy kitten proofing the sun room this weekend.

Oh, enjoy your break from the boards! It's a joy hearing from you, so it'll be great to see you when you do post!

Hey!

Hey guys! Just a kitten-momma update for anyone who is interested, and maybe a few questions as well.

Roxy is doing a wonderful job at keeping everyone cleaned and helping them all evacuate their bowels, and she's definitely calming down a *lot* with every day. I'm beginning to think, or more like hope, that the psychotic cat that we were all introduced to was just because she had a big move on top of a hormonal flood and being dumped on Mars. She's very tolerant of me handling the kittens now, but you can tell her patience has frayed when she bats your hand without her claws out, grabs the kitten, and takes it back into the box. She *has* contemplated a den move, she keeps scouting out a specific box. I won't let her move there, but it's definitely interesting to watch her try and make it into her new nesting area. For now we're just going to keep her in the kennel and let her deal with it. I know that if we let her move dens now she'd become impossible to find, and then I wouldn't be able to weigh the kittens.

Roxy's body is doing a wonderful job in healing up too. I haven't seen any discharge or blood come from her rear since four days after the initial birthing process and the nipple she bit is completely healed! Her stool is back to normal too. I'm very excited for this, it didn't even take canned plain pumpkin. She's still a little snippy when any of the kittens venture too far back behind her, but I'm sure that's still a sensitive area. So far with Roxy, everything seems to be running its course naturally. There's still no sign of infection so I think it's completely safe to say that she got all of the placenta out and is a healthy mommy of eight. (Octamom to the rescue!)

All eight babies seem to be doing really well and progressing naturally. Eyes are beginning to open, or in the case of a couple kittens, have completely opened. They're starting to be able to use their back legs for a sort of support system. They put their rear legs under their hips, stand in this weird little crouch, then they lurch forward and land on their bellies! It's adorable and so very fascinating to watch. They're also starting to get more curious about the outside world I think. When Roxy leaves the kennel or when they get picked up and scratched, then put back down, they stand as high as they can on their front legs and seem to peer over the lip of their new box. (It's taller, and more difficult for kittens to try and get over.)

I have noticed that Kit 1(white) has had weird weight gain these last couple of days. Between the 27th and the 28th of May, he gained only 6grams. Between the 28th and the 29th of May, he gained 11grams, and between the 29th and the 30th of May, he only gained 6grams again. Is this sort of weight gain normal?

Onto updated kitten pics! Dk Green, Blue, and Pink(Little Fighter) have all been claimed and have prospective owners/names. Everyone else has had dibs put on them but haven't been completely claimed!

  Thor, projected to be male.

  Unclaimed, projected to be (fe)male.

  Unclaimed, projected to be male.

  Unclaimed, projected to be male.

  Unclaimed, projected to be male.

  Unclaimed, projected to be male.

  Freya, projected to be (fe)male.

  Little Fighter, projected to be male.

  One big happy family!

RoxyMomma said:

I have noticed that Kit 1(white) has had weird weight gain these last couple of days. Between the 27th and the 28th of May, he gained only 6grams. Between the 28th and the 29th of May, he gained 11grams, and between the 29th and the 30th of May, he only gained 6grams again. Is this sort of weight gain normal?

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Yes this sort of fluctuation is totally normal. Oftentimes these changes just reflect a full bladder vs. having just gone. Unless he loses weight it's fine. But, you are smart to ask and it's a clear indicator you are doing everything right on your end.

Seriously, your post should be flagged as an example to others on how to do this. Not just in how to ask specific questions and to do the legwork but in how you write. The fact that you made your question a different color makes it so easy for readers to follow! And, I love how you put a different color thread with each kitten. Otherwise it's easy to get them mixed up in pictures Genius!

RoxyMomma said:

Oh, enjoy your break from the boards! It's a joy hearing from you, so it'll be great to see you when you do post!

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I love your optimism and I so wish I was off doing something fun. My Mom has been battling late stage cancer for the past year and a half and we are near the end. So, I am living with my parents full time to help take care of her and help her transition from this world to the next. Every day is gut wrenchingly difficult but I am trying to savor every minute I get with her. TCS is a great escape for me but right now there just isn't much time. I'll keep checking your thread when I can, though! 

so hows tha lil ones n roxy????

Hey!

EB24 said:

I love your optimism and I so wish I was off doing something fun. My Mom has been battling late stage cancer for the past year and a half and we are near the end. So, I am living with my parents full time to help take care of her and help her transition from this world to the next. Every day is gut wrenchingly difficult but I am trying to savor every minute I get with her. TCS is a great escape for me but right now there just isn't much time. I'll keep checking your thread when I can, though! 

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Well thank you very much! I appreciate that you will, but please don't feel obligated to keep up here, I can appreciate and understand the need to spend time with your mom. I will light a candle for you and your family each night I go out to tend to the kittens and you will be in my thoughts. As I said, it's a joy to hear from you when you do post but thankfully there are many people who can help hold a spot if you really need/want to get offline and enjoy the time you can with your mom! Also, many thanks for the compliments! I'm glad to be doing this correctly!

I'm glad that the fluctuation of weighs is a normal thing - I was starting to get worried about White. I figured that with such a big litter it might be expected that weight gain is a little less than ten grams a day as long as it wasn't only one or two. So I think things are still going really smoothly! I wouldn't have even thought about bladder contents or lack thereof effecting the weight gain on a daily basis! Haha.

Hi KC! Long time no see!

Everyone is doing okay, kittens have started walking and you can tell Roxy is becoming eager to be let out of the kennel. The only reason we haven't opened the door yet is because she is still threatening to do a den move and I just don't quite trust her yet not to take them and hide them in hard to reach areas.

Roxy herself has become a Lap Cat!! Oh my gosh she just jumps on laps now, and purrs away like a little motor. She rolls around, exposes her belly, and scents clothes, hands, and legs. It is adorable. She has also become okay with other people coming into the sun room and handling her kittens as long as I'm present and sitting near the person handling the kittens. She displays no aggression and even sits on people's laps while they hold her babies. I have all hope that she'll be able to stay with us, but we still have a long way to go.

Okay onto the boring text update. (Well, not so boring.)

The kittens are doing fantastically. Everyone is gaining ten-twelve grams a day, but I have supplemented some feedings for purple, pink, orange, and have had brown, green, and red nurse so as to give the three smallest kittens a chance at the teat. Other than this everyone is doing really well and I'm happy to announce that Little Fighter is getting much closer to breaking 200grams. Everyone else has broken 200grams and are still gaining weight at a nice, steady pace. Roxy seems to be doing a good job at keeping everyone happy and fed. Cleaned and evacuated as well.

Everyone but Little Fighter is starting to walk now! We're taking actual steps as opposed to the weird little launch that we were doing last week, which I have mixed feelings about. I already miss the glorified slugs that just lay there, and them walking *does* spell the start of the reign of terror, but I'm so excited because it does mean that personalities will begin developing and we'll have a pack of ball chasing, item-ruining, bouncy babies here shortly! And yes, Little Fighter does try, he's just not quite there yet.

I do know that now is the time to start planning and preparing for litter box training. With one or two kittens I wouldn't be too concerned, but we have eight of them and that's a lot of brains to teach to having to release in one specific area. I know that Roxy will do this naturally but is there any tips, tricks, examples, anything that anyone can provide for mass potty training?

Since the pellets are going to become too expensive to keep purchasing, is there any specific brand of cat litter I can use with the babies? I was thinking non-clumping tidy cats. I'm googling answers to this too, but personal experience and opinions are warmly welcomed!

Tonight is baby picture night, and if I can, I'll try to get some video of the wobbly legged kittens working on walking! I'm also thinking of giving them litter names, aside from the babies who are already named, since it's starting to feel silly calling them a number or color. Some of them have already earned names, though. Like little screamer - who screams when you touch him. I'll be back with pictures and updates!

Many thanks guys! You are all awesome!

RoxyMomma said:

I do know that now is the time to start planning and preparing for litter box training. With one or two kittens I wouldn't be too concerned, but we have eight of them and that's a lot of brains to teach to having to release in one specific area. I know that Roxy will do this naturally but is there any tips, tricks, examples, anything that anyone can provide for mass potty training?

Since the pellets are going to become too expensive to keep purchasing, is there any specific brand of cat litter I can use with the babies? I was thinking non-clumping tidy cats. I'm googling answers to this too, but personal experience and opinions are warmly welcomed!

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It seems counterintuitive but larger litters are actually easier to litterbox train. If you can get one or two of them to catch on all the others will follow suit. In a way they train each other! To get a few of them going just start picking them up and putting them in the box after they eat or whenever you see them going for the squat. Leaving some urine and stool in the boxes also helps them to scent identify. 

The biggest key is making sure you have enough kitten-sized boxes set up. High sided cookie sheets or the cardboard boxes wet kitten food comes in work great. Figure out how many kittens can fit in a box at one time (usually 2, sometimes 3) and line up as many as you need in a row (or in a square) to accommodate all of them going at once. I don't think the sunroom is very big but you may need a couple of these "stations" set up as when kittens need to go they need to go now. As mentioned when they are training I always leave a little urine and stool in each of the boxes so that they start to associate the scent with the location. If they have an accident (and they will- it's just part of the process) pick up what you can and put it in the box. And, make sure you clean the area really well with an enzyme remover (like Nature's Miracle) to prevent re-marking. 

As for litter, I absolutely love World's Best. But, I have to disclaimer: the packaging specifically says for use in kittens ages 8 weeks and up. World's Best is a corn based litter so it clumps naturally and doesn't expand like a clay litter does. If ingested in large amounts it could cause a blockage but I have used it for all my litters and never had any problems. You will just have to use your discretion on this one and watch them closely the first few days. 

I'm so thrilled to read everything else is going well and that Roxy has become such a snuggler! Hopefully it means her hormones are calming down some. And, thank you for all your kind words. I so appreciate your thoughts and prayers each night when you go to spend time with them. It's very comforting knowing others are with us as we struggle through this difficult time. 

Love reading your updates so keep 'em coming! 

Hey!

First off, I want to apologize for not getting immediately back with pictures. At the time Roxy would *not* have me putting her babies anywhere that was not the scale or the box. So I had to patiently wait until she was comfortable with me moving the babies again. We're back in action though as she's calmed down again.

Secondly, it's surprising to hear that bigger litters are easier to train. I really wouldn't think cats to have the pack mentality, especially with something like litter box training. But with my limited experience it shouldn't come as too big a surprise. We had our first piddle accident today; I have no idea who had it. One moment I was looking the other way, and the next there was a fresh puddle in the midst of seven different kittens. Kind of hard to guess who had the accident. You said that high-lipped cookie sheets or the wet kitten food box would work, but would a box lid or soda flat (it's like a box lid) work? I would think so, but it's always nice just to double check. In regards to litter I'll be sure to check out World's Best. For now we'll keep them in the pellets that we bought for Roxy until they are gone, and then we'll consider a switch. We do also have the cheap litter (Tidy cats?) if we end up needing it.

Thirdly, after having gone to three stores in the area I can't find wet kitten food. I know that's weird but it is the truth. Since we've started exploring with mom's wet food, would it be okay serve the kittens adult wet cat food spiked with kitten replacement formula? Or would soaking a plate of the kitten chow we've been feeding Roxy in kitten milk and giving it to them? I know it's not ideal but it'll be a couple days before I can get back into a store to look for wet food; and this is similar to what we had to do for a litter of 13 puppies.

Fourthly, I have some bummer news about Saga/Little Fighter. On 6/6/13 a trend began with her - she started (yes she's a she! Vet confirmed!) losing weight at a rate of about two grams a day. At the time I didn't realize it was a trend; she was moving *a lot* and it was going up and down between the same few numbers. When she finally sat still she leveled out at what I had written down. So at the 6/7/13 weigh in I couldn't really tell if she had lost weight or not. I conferred with the family and we decided to give it a few days to see if she was really on a down hill trend. And it was; she was losing between two and three grams a day from 6/6/13 to 6/10/13, even with me supplementing her feeding. So off to the vet we (and the whole litter) went. The vet couldn't really see anything externally wrong with her; no eye leakage, nose leakage, nothing of that sort. She listened to LF's heartbeat, which was slow for a kitten, and her internal temp was 95 degrees. They wormed LF, Roxy, and the entire litter and told me to treat LF a bit like an orphaned kitten. I'm providing most of her feedings if, after pulling her and Roxy out and letting her have a solo-go at the teat, she gets very little to no milk. So I'm up and out in the sun room with them every three hours. Yay! I'll keep you guys updated if you're curious. Since the vet trip, LF *has* gained 4grams. So things are looking good so far!

Fifthly! Happy news! Everyone is officially claimed, named, tagged, and people are eagerly awaiting the arrival of their babies. Even Roxy has a home lined up if we can't get her and the old girls (A 15 and a 13 year old cat) on a level of friendship. Best yet is that all of these people are friends to us and we visit them regularly, so we'll always get to have these kittens in our lives, one way or another! I'm very happy to announce this.

Sixthly! Roxy has made friends with our dogs. It sort of happened without me even realizing it. The sun room door's sliding glass door track is very stiff/dirty/sticky, making the door hard to close. Someone hadn't closed the door all the way due to this, and while I was weighing the kittens I believe Roxy and the dogs were sniffing each other through the crack in the door. It got to the point where I'd open the door to leave and freshen her water up and she'd come booking into the main house to see the dogs, then she'd see someone else and go attack them, before being sent back into the sun room. Then I'd open the door, she'd meow at them, and they'd come in the sun room with me. Despite their clear command to stay. (Something that they are masters of. I will not have a dog who does not know how to stay.) She'd then run up to them, under their legs, and purr. Now, if they lay down and stay still, Roxy lets her kittens approach the dogs. She even shares potty duty with them. And by book it - I do mean /book it/. Half the time you'd blink and she'd be in the house.

And EB, it is my pleasure. I hope everything is alright with you and that things are going as well as they possibly can under the circumstances. I have a candle lit for you as I type. 

Okay I think that's everything for this update -- oh! And Elske was the first kitten to try running! It was so freaking adorable. She just tried bounding up to Roxy, made it three steps, and then biffed it. Now for the pictures!


Red is Rocky, a confirmed male. Rocky has a permanent home with us as he was claimed by the man of the house. He's growing into quite the lap cat. He'll wiggle his way up and he'll lay where he lands for the duration of your stay out in the sun room. He's also a bit of a perv. He quite likes hanging out on women's shelving units. He's the bravest kitten when it comes to trying food that isn't momma's milk. He was the first to steal a nibble from what Roxy was eating. So far he's a bit of a screamer if you touch him when he doesn't want to be touched, and he uses those lungs when he wants it to be known that he wants you to touch him. But he settles right down once he finds a comfy spot.


Orange is Elske, or Ellie, a confirmed female. Ellie has been claimed by my uncle and will spend her days curled up on his lap or terrorizing his house (whichever comes first) while he's at work, and entertaining his two kids when he has them. She's feisty and she's quick. She was the first kitten to successfully walk with keeping all four legs under her body, she's the first kitten to even try running, and she was the first brave baby to approach one of the dogs. She's an attention hound too, she's always the first to the lip of the box when she hears someone talking outside of the kennel, and she's always the first to wiggle her way up onto a lap and lay claim to the area. She's adventurous too and has begun looking for escape routes. (Yikes!) I think she takes after her momma in that aspect.


Green is Freya, a confirmed female. This kitten *Loves* exploring. She is the first kitten to break Roxy's comfort boundaries and try exploring in the dark crevices of the room. She's also in love with the dogs, she'll walk right up to them and curl up in their "laps" for a quick snuggle between play and nursing time. This is yet another lap cat as well, if she finds a comfy spot on your leg she's going to take it and fall right asleep. Freya is going home with a dog breeder, where she'll have a life full of entertaining two young boys, playing with dogs and rounds of puppies, and hunting for the family. This home is also where Roxy will wind up if she doesn't work out.


Purple is Loki, a confirmed male. This kitten is really a quiet little guy who is content with being held or left in the box; he doesn't seem to care either way. When it comes to play attempts he's normally withdrawn and holds himself back it seems. That doesn't stop him from retaliating if any of the bigger kittens get in his way, though. I'm hoping he'll come into more personality with age. But for now, he's alright with being one of the quietest kittens in the litter. He has a home in my aunt, with her and her two young children. He and Asgard will be going together.


Pink is, as you all know, Little Fighter, or Saga. She was vet confirmed to be a female! Saga has a permanent home in me, as with having to revive her three times, and now treating her like an orphan, I've grown much too attached to let her go. A lot of her time is spent sleeping, though the vet and I are unsure as to whether or not this is lethargy or her having little energy from not being able to nurse, or possibly nursing unsuccessfully. She has been a very quiet kitten up to this point, but as of 6/10/13 and me taking over most of her feedings she's coming more into herself and out of her shell. I'm excited to see what kind of personality she has. I do know that she enjoys being held.


Brown is Asgard, a confirmed male. This kitten is a bit like his brother Loki. He's quiet and he doesn't seem to mind whether he's held or not. Unlike Loki he has grown much more active since having been introduced to life outside the kennel. He is among the first of kittens to the lip of the box, meowing to be let out, and he loves romping around after having been let out. On the same coin he's more than content to sleep when it's time to be put back in the box. This little man climbed up my back. He and his brother are going together to be gifts to my aunt's kids (and my aunt herself).


Blue is Thor, a confirmed male. This kitten is a ball of strange energy. He's very independent and he's kind of aloof. If he doesn't want to be touched or held, he'll meow at you or try to crawl away from your hand. He's actually not very quietly held for anyone except for the person who has claimed him. I get the feeling that he'll grow to be a one person cat. This kitten was the first to open his eyes, the first to have his ears opened, and the first to successfully walk while everyone else was crawling around. It'll be exciting to watch him grow and possibly change. He's been claimed by my cousin.


Last but not least, white. White is Vanir, a confirmed male kitten who has been claimed by a vet. Until 6/10/13 this kitten was extremely quiet. I'm still just getting to know him. From what I've seen though, he's going to be a lover kitty who is eager to be pet and scratched on. He's also the first kitten to try playing with anyone that I've seen, and he's showing interest in chasing moving things. I can't wait to see how he develops.

Oh and all of these kittens have a home with us, however temporary, if any of these homes fall through.

As always, thank you guys so much. I'll continue to keep you posted and keep updating and asking questions!

Originally Posted by RoxyMomma  

 You said that high-lipped cookie sheets or the wet kitten food box would work, but would a box lid or soda flat (it's like a box lid) work? 

Thirdly, after having gone to three stores in the area I can't find wet kitten food. I know that's weird but it is the truth. Since we've started exploring with mom's wet food, would it be okay serve the kittens adult wet cat food spiked with kitten replacement formula? Or would soaking a plate of the kitten chow we've been feeding Roxy in kitten milk and giving it to them? 

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Oh I love this update! I feel like I know each of them now and they are so stinking adorable! I'm obsessed with Loki. His coloring, his laid back personality, even the name- he's pretty much my dream kitty!

I'm so happy you have been able to find homes for each of them and that it's with people you know and trust. I'm also so glad to hear they can always come back to you if the need arises. I'm sorry for Little Fighter's continued troubles but it sounds like you are getting her back on track and that a lack of milk was the issue. With such a large litter I'm surprised it didn't happen with more of them.I think the vet gave solid advice to treat her feeding as if she is an orphan but I would still leave her with Roxy and her litter mates so she can continue to learn and grow with them (which I'm pretty sure you are doing). That socialization does wonders for their growth and development and she should be a very well rounded girl given her exposure to both humans and felines. And, I don't blame you for keeping her. I went through that with my one and only "foster failure" Diego. I literally had to pull him out of the birth canal and revive him several times. He was so underweight (just over 60g at birth) I didn't think there was any way he would survive, though I swore I would do whatever it took to make it happen. He did and I was sunk. Once you invest so much in their survival it's almost impossible to let them go! 

Now to answer your questions.....

It sounds like the box lid will work fine. Anything with low sides so that they can crawl up and into it will work. The thing with cardboard (versus something like the cookie sheets) is that you need to throw it out every couple of days as urine will inevitably seep through. So, start stocking up on them now, especially since you will probably need multiple boxes set up at once! They also make "small" cat litterboxes that work great once they are a little bigger. They are nice because they are super cheap and are plastic so you can reuse them. I have found they are great for transitioning from the cardboard baby boxes to an adult litter box. If you can I would set up a few of these too so that they have options (you would be surprised how quickly they will start using them and many seem to prefer the plastic to cardboard). Here is an example of the ones I have. They are simple and square and cost six bucks- you can't go wrong! http://www.petco.com/product/15211/Petco-Litter-Pans.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch (make sure you select the small size if you order them online).

That's so bizarre that you can't find kitten food! I know some brands don't make a kitten specific formula but a lot of them do. Keep an eye out for Nutro and Royal Canin- they both have good kitten specific formulas. Hopefully you have at least found dry kitten food and are feeding them that. The best alternative (and really it's better than canned kitten food anyway) is looking for a wet food that is an "all life stages" formula. Brands like Tiki Cat, Wellness, and Nature's Instinct all fall into this category. These brands are formulated to being so close to a cat's natural diet that it's good for adults as well as babies. 

If you really can't find anything else I would probably just give them the adult food as is. It has everything they need just less calories. You could add some KMR to it but it's such a hassle and I don't know that the minimal nutritional benefits would be worth it. If you really wanted to boost them up look for the kitten formulated Nutri-cal paste at the pet store (usually with the medical stuff). It will ensure they are getting enough of everything they need plus some extra calories. Whatever you do, DO NOT soak the dry food in KMR. When wet, dry kibble grows bacteria very quickly and can be very dangerous. So, either add the nutri-cal paste or just give them the adult wet as is- they should make up for the extra calories in their dry kibble. Also start rewarding them with treats- it will help reinforce positive behavior and add to the calorie count. 

After saying all that I have to add that this isn't really something I have thought of since I always have canned kitten food on hand. It may be worth starting a new thread over in nutrition to see what others think. They may have better ideas than I do on the subject. This is just what I would do if in your shoes. 

Thank you again for all your prayers- we appreciate them! We are very close to the end- she has asked for permission to go and is no longer eating or drinking. It's obviously been very difficult and as much as I hate to lose her I can't stand seeing her suffer like this. So, hopefully she will cross soon and it will be peaceful and stress free. Keep lighting those candles to help guide her on. 

Oh, and as far as training a bigger litter being easier: don't you know the expression being a copycat?!?!?! Cats don't have a pack mentality but they certainly like to do whatever other felines are doing. If one has a ball they will suddenly want that ball! If one is eating they suddenly want to eat! If one is peeing in a particular spot, well.... you get the picture. The hardest time I ever had with litterbox training was a litter of two. One started to take to it but his sister wouldn't. And, since they like to do all the same things he would go on the floor where she went. They were maddening! The last litter I had of five literally trained in a matter of days. They were a very vocal bunch and I would give them a lot of praise. So, they started crying every time they went in the box. Not because it hurt but because they wanted me to see and praise them! Had they not been born in my bed I would have sworn they were a lot older based on the lack of accidents they had. It was quite miraculous and I swear I only cleaned up a half dozen spots the whole time I had them. You just never know how each litter is going to be, and I pray that yours take to it as quickly as my last litter did! 

I can't believe how fast time has gone and that they are already up and going. Keep it up- you are doing a fabulous job and they all look so happy and healthy!

Have to agree with EB, such a lovely write up. We too have a ginger Loki, he's going to live with my youngest daughter and Hubby when they get married in September. The name comes from the Norse God and was choose. by Jenni, I believe itis suppose to be connected with mystery and change and our Loki is a bit mischievous and 1 minute can be quiet and relaxed on your lap and the next going hell for leather chasing the rest of his siblings.

Glad theyr all doin good..kc's r 7 weeks now and r ltter traind i just put em in the litter box after they ate now they go on ther own... :-D kc has also become a lap cat..lol