Slippery Elm Bark and grass eating

ldg

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The person that wrote this blog http://www.ferretharmony.net/2013/04/27/hairballs-eat-an-egg/ said that with 20/20 hindsight, she can see that the weeks she feeds her kitty eggs, she doesn't throw up (her kitty seems very much like Mazy!) And when I ran out of egg yolk lecithin, Shel threw up (a couple?) hairballs - and it stopped within a day or two of re-starting the lecithin. :dk:
 
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otto

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Thanks for that, it was a good read. Should the vitamin A (mentioned in the blog) in egg yolks be a concern?

Jennie still eats one tablespoon of pumpkin a day. I didn't think there was any harm in it, until just reading that post, and when I try to reduce it, her constipation comes back. I tried again when I started the egg yolk lecithin, thinking she wouldn't need it now. But she still needs that pumpkin. Jennie has always needed that pumpkin. I wonder why, and now I have to worry about her having that, too? :argh:
 

ldg

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Well, that is a ferret blog.

And no, we did the exercise of calculating how much vitamin A the egg yolk adds, and it wasn't enough to cause a problem if you're using 5% liver. I remember doing the calc at 2 egg yolks a week, but there was still a HUGE amount of room before getting close to the upper safety limit, so even if someone's feeding 4-5 egg yolks a week, it won't cause a vitamin A problem.

In the end, given that we assume hairballs are the result of a GI problem to begin with, if we're already feeding raw, or a low carb, grain-free, meat-based diet, all we can do is treat kitty the best we can. I've had to resort to a teaspoon of pumpkin a day for Spooky's constipation. I haven't been able to cut it back without her constipation coming back (I should go update her thread). Ultimately, other than what I am already doing, I don't know what I can further do to "treat" the underlying problem. :dk:

I'm not overly upset about Spooky needing the pumpkin. I'm sure she benefits from the vitamin C and the beta carotene. They're both potent antioxidants, and though I don't remember where, I do remember reading that even though cats don't convert the beta carotene into vitamin A, they still benefit from the beta carotene itself.
 
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otto

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Well, that is a ferret blog.

And no, we did the exercise of calculating how much vitamin A the egg yolk adds, and it wasn't enough to cause a problem if you're using 5% liver. I remember doing the calc at 2 egg yolks a week, but there was still a HUGE amount of room before getting close to the upper safety limit, so even if someone's feeding 4-5 egg yolks a week, it won't cause a vitamin A problem.

.
My girls get one ounce or one half ounce of PMR a day. They only get liver for the organ. For one ounce, they get .1 oz of liver. For half ounce of meat they get .05 oz liver.

With .05 oz of raw liver daily, and an average of .35 oz of raw egg yolk four times a week, will this be too much vitamin A for Mazy? (assuming her other daily foods, canned and Rad Cat) are also providing a balance of vitamin A

In the end, given that we assume hairballs are the result of a GI problem to begin with, if we're already feeding raw, or a low carb, grain-free, meat-based diet, all we can do is treat kitty the best we can. I've had to resort to a teaspoon of pumpkin a day for Spooky's constipation. I haven't been able to cut it back without her constipation coming back (I should go update her thread). Ultimately, other than what I am already doing, I don't know what I can further do to "treat" the underlying problem. :dk:

I'm not overly upset about Spooky needing the pumpkin. I'm sure she benefits from the vitamin C and the beta carotene. They're both potent antioxidants, and though I don't remember where, I do remember reading that even though cats don't convert the beta carotene into vitamin A, they still benefit from the beta carotene itself
Thank you Laurie. Jennie is the same, if I try to drop to every other day with the pumpkin, for instance, she starts having trouble with constipation again. She takes one tablespoon a day, rather than one teaspoon. She weighs 9 pounds 8 ounces, though it is a struggle to keep her at that weight, she has terrible food anxiety, poor girl.
 
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otto

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Okay, thank you! And now an unexpected turn to the experiment. This morning, even before her pre-meal Mazy was telling me she wanted me to go with her to the litter box. Usually she doesn't take me down to watch her pee until after she has had her pre-meal. (edit)I forgot to mention, she actually came to me in bed after she heard me wake up. Unless she is already sleeping with me, she doens't usually do that. I didn't get up right away, so she left, but then came back while I was doing my exercises (I do sit ups and leg lifts in bed before getting up) which was unusual for her.

Then, when I got up she started urging me to follow her down to the litter boxes.

I dutifully followed her down, and she got up on the platform. I watcher her and she didn't pee. Instead she sat there for a moment, and I suddenly realized she had that look, like she was going to hurl. I was mystified because it had only been 7 hours since her last meal, surely she couldn't be feeling sick and full of bile already? I tilted a litter box toward her to catch it, thinking a lot of liquid was going to come up.

Instead, with what seemed like some effort, she brought up the wad of grass from Sunday, with a small mat of hair entwined in it! I was relieved to see it, frankly, and, the best part was, there was NO liquid. No bile indicating an over production of acid in her tummy, just the wad of grass with a little fur.

Then she proceeded to have a very big pee, and a normal poop. A very productive morning for my Mazy cat.

But it's odd about the grass coming up 2 days later. So it sat in her stomach for almost 48 hours, but she didn't puke or show any indication of wanting to, in all that time. In fact the only sign of discomfort I saw at all since they were outside on Sunday is late last night after her final meal (which contains her probiotic) she burped. I did give her two pieces of freeze dried chicken breast after the burp to soak up any acid that might be lingering.

So, is this an improvement? I have no idea.
 
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ldg

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OK, that's interesting!

Given she didn't seem to be in any discomfort, and threw up the grass with no bile and no apparent discomfort, I think this is a good thing! :dk:
 
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otto

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So I'm thinking....the SEB coated her insides, keeping inflammation down, so she experienced no discomfort or extra acid/bile production from the grass, BECAUSE of the SEB? Does that make sense?

By the way, since increasing the egg yolk...her coat is INCREDIBLE!
 
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ldg

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Your speculation is as good as mine. :lol3: That sounds plausible! :dk:

As to her coat - that's great! I wish the kitties that needed it liked egg yolk!
 
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otto

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I'm going to post this link here, not only for other people to read, but so when I need to re-read it I can know where to find it quickly. :)

I guess it was in a different thread we were discussing the frequency of dosing of SEB. I don't remember what thread it was, but I was under the impression (I don't know why) that it shouldn't be used more than twice a week, but in the discussion in the other thread I was told that it can be used as often as needed, even every day.

I'm going to stick with twice a week for Mazy cat for now. Unless I end up taking them out on an extra day here or there. I will, from now on, always give her a serving of SEB before we go out into the yard, to help her with the grass.

Oh, here's the link on SEB from Little Big Cat with Dr Jean Hofve.

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/

I'm going to print it out for my vet, too. I've asked her about SEB a couple of times, but she is fearful of herbal treatment being used in cats. Maybe this will help her understand that slippery elm bark, at least, is safe.

Warning: don't try to print the article from the web page. It prints EVERYTHING, including every comment ever made. I finally had to unplug my printer because it wouldn't stop printing, what a waste of paper and ink, very annoyed, lol. I finally just copied the part I wanted and pasted it into my openoffice and printed that way. Geez.
 
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vball91

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In the comments below that article, someone asked about nutrient loss, and Dr. Hofve replied that she could not find anything to support that. All she said was that SEB *may* delay the absorption of certain things, so it would be safest to schedule medications around SEB since those usually have to be given at certain times of the day. I've also read that SEB on its own can be considered as food and has cetain nutrients of its own. So I am no longer worried about feeding it every other day.
 
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otto

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The comments section of the article is very much worth reading. But I didn't want to print it all, LOL. My vet can log onto the web site if she wants to read the comments. :lol3:
 

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In the comments below that article, someone asked about nutrient loss, and Dr. Hofve replied that she could not find anything to support that. All she said was that SEB *may* delay the absorption of certain things, so it would be safest to schedule medications around SEB since those usually have to be given at certain times of the day. I've also read that SEB on its own can be considered as food and has cetain nutrients of its own. So I am no longer worried about feeding it every other day.
:nod:

My holistic vet prescribed SEB for Chumley when he was ripping his hair out and had horrible diarrhea (it was just a part of his overall program).

He was given SEB twice a day for over a year.

All he did was get healthy. It obviously didn't cause any nutrition deficiency. He gained weight to being fat (on a low-carb, grain free diet: the problem was momma with portion control ;) ), and developed no issues as a result of having eaten it twice a day for... 14 months. :)
 
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otto

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Thanks you guys! So helpful. I am feeling really hopeful over Mazy cat now. Especially as it seems most cats are able to eventually stop needing the SEB, instead of needing more and more of it as time goes on, as is the nature of some palliatives.

It's also very comforting to know that if it turns out twice a week isn't enough, I can use it more often without worry.

Also this passage in littlebigcat, while confusing me at first, after re reading it a few times so that I understood it better, has reassured me too, since Mazy is FLUTD.

In the case of cystitis (bladder inflammation), Slippery Elm is thought to soothe the bladder lining. However, it is somewhat high in magnesium, so may be contraindicated in dogs who have an active infection with an elevated urinary pH, where struvite crystal formation may be a risk. (In cats, urinary tract infections are very rarely bacterial.) Slippery Elm bark contains natural pentosans, a class of complex sugars that contains the same compound found in the drug “Elmiron[emoji]174[/emoji],”the major pain-relieving treatment for interstitial cystitis (IC) in women. Pentosan has been used by the pharmaceutical industry as an anti-coagulant and anti-inflammatory for more than 40 years. (Anti-coagulant effects are not seen with normal oral administration.) Since bladder disease in cats is very similar to that in women, slippery elm may be especially beneficial for our feline friends. Small, frequent dosages of pentosan has been shown in humans to be more effective than single large doses.
 

vball91

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otto, one other thing to maybe consider for Mazy is corn silk. The FLUTD yahoo group swears by it for reducing bladder inflammation. They recommend all FLUTD cats be on it. Dosages differ between flare-up times and maintenance times.
 
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otto

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Thanks for the info. What is it? If it is made from corn, Mazy can't have it. Mazy cannot tolerate anything related to grains, especially corn. She couldn't even take the Swanson brand of egg yolk lecithin, because of the miniscule amount of rice powder in it, she is that sensitive.

(edit) Okay, I am reading about it now. I see why you have thought of it. Mazy is not having any trouble with her urinary tract these days. Her main issue is digestive now. And that digestive issue is a direct result of 6 1/2 years on a corn laden "prescription" food.
 
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ldg

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I'm really glad you brought up the corn silk! I have some here, but forgot all about it. Our Spooky still has FLUTD issues (though not currently apparently active - maybe corn silk will help keep it that way! :cross: ).
 

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I forgot about Mazy's grain intolerance. Corn silk probably isn't something you want to risk with her. The other alternative is marshmallow root, but like SEB, it's recommended to give away from any meds. I know you have Mazy's FLUTD under control, but just something to keep in mind in case she ever has another flare.

It's a little weird because SEB and marshmallow root are supposed to act in a very similar manner, but I've seen the FLUTD Yahoo group recommend corn silk or marshmallow root for bladder inflammation but not SEB. SEB does seem to be more recommended for digestive tract inflammation, but Mazy might be getting some anti-inflammatory bladder effect from the SEB as well.
 
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otto

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Thanks! Yes I was thinking the anti-inflammatory benefits of the SEB would be mainly for the digestive tract, but you never know. And Dr Hofve does state in her article that there is a property of the SEB, pentosan, that is beneficial to cats with urinary tract problems, I quoted her up above.

Mazy does get some Vet's-Best hairball relief almost every day as incentive, but only a pinch of powder (over her PMR meal, specifically the part of the meal that contains the egg shell calcium and Vitamin B powder :lol3:). Vets-Best contains psyllium, SEB and marshmallow, but like I said she only gets a tiny bit.

She also takes 500 mg Krill every other day, which also has anti-inflammatory benefit. I test her urine pH frequently and while she every now and then has a higher reading of 7 or 7.5, mostly she is 6.5 or 6.75 so I am not worried about that these days.

Just want to stop the regurgitation!

Hey Laurie if you do use the corn silk with Spooky, be sure to let us know how it goes.
 
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otto

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Found some grass in Mazy's poop this morning, so she didn't bring it all up on Tuesday morning. But at least it came through more quickly than last time, AND, did not cause any regurgitation.

I think her whiskers are starting to fill out a little. Must be something in the egg yolk. :clap:
 
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