Slippery Elm Bark and grass eating

I know some people use slippery elm bark here so I have some questions on it, and then want your opinions on what I want to use it for.

1)How much do you give and how often?

2)How do you prepare it?

3)Can you make a quantity in advance or does it have to be prepared each time you give it?

4)Does the cat usually just eat it in food?

5)What improvements in the cat have you seen with it?

Many of you know the struggle Mazy has with regurgitation. I won't go into that here, there are enough threads on it already

The current issue is grass eating. Now that the weather is getting nice I am starting to take them out in their yard again. Jennie eats the grass and brings it back up. Queen Eva doesn't eat grass. Mazy, my prize vomiter of lovely food, eats a lot of grass, but NEVER brings it back up.

Then she struggles with the grass in her system until she finally passes it in her poop. I took them out on April 7, and it took NINE DAYS for her to pass that grass, and she started regurgitating her prey model meals nightly, I suspect, because of it.

So I want to know if you think the slippery elm bark will help her pass the grass more quickly. Should I give it to her right before I take them out, or right after she comes back in?

By the way, I have tried ways to force her to bring up that grass. Over feed her before she goes out. Over feed her when she comes in. Give her a food I know she can't keep down. It all back fires. I've also tried to help her pass it. In previous years I always gave her a big glob of some petroleum based hair ball remedy after coming inside. But I don't use that stuff any more. I did give her an egg yolk after coming in on April 7, but obviously it didn't help...9 days...it may have even hindered.

Oh the irony of it, that my cat who struggles to keep her food down on a daily basis, will not bring up the grass when she eats it.

1) When Aria started vomiting bile with hair, I added egg yolk lecithin and slippery elm bark. I alternated the 2 on different days. My SEB comes in 400mg capsules, so I take the contents of one capsule, mix with some warm water (dissolves faster and gels quicker than with cold). I then mix some ground freeze-dried beef with it to flavor it. It then looks and smells a little like gravy. Aria wouldn't eat it alone. Alone, it has a weird scent, hard to describe, woodsy, maybe? Oops, that answered #2 as well.

3) I have never tried preparing it in advance, so not sure about this one.

4) Because SEB coats the intestinal tract, it can prevent full nutrient absorption, so it's generally not recommended to give with food. I give it Aria as a snack in between meals.

5) Honestly none. It's anti-inflammatory, so I thought it couldn't hurt when she had her vomiting issues. I do think now that it was more of an excess stomach acid issue. I stopped the SEB but continued with EYL and eggs alternated EOD. The vomiting has stopped, but I don't think the SEB was a factor.

For Mazy's cat grass problem, I'm not sure if it will help. Theoretically, since the SEB coats the digestive tract, if you gave it to her before the walk, the cat grass would pass through her system better. That seems to make logical sense to me. I guess the only way to know is to try it. Now SEB is fiber, so are you sure Mazy will be okay with that?

I'm not so sure it would help Mazy, because slippery elm slows digestion. I've used it when transitioning to a new food or for mild diarrhea. The stuff I get is a small tub of powder, and the dose is 1/2 teaspoon for a 5 kg. cat (11 lbs.)/day. It's for short or long-term use, and can be put on food or given with a little cat milk or yogurt.

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/slippery-elm-000274.htm

I think vball91's idea that giving it to her before going out may help.

Oh - forgot to say, it smells pretty much like maple syrup. Some of my cats like it, some don't. I mix it with food.

The instructions my vet gave me were 1/4 teaspoon mixed with a teaspoon of liquid. You can use more liquid - that amount of water makes it pretty thick.

With Chum, I fed it twice a day. For hairball control, I use it a couple of times a week, just one meal a day.

vball91 said:

1)
For Mazy's cat grass problem, I'm not sure if it will help. Theoretically, since the SEB coats the digestive tract, if you gave it to her before the walk, the cat grass would pass through her system better. That seems to make logical sense to me. I guess the only way to know is to try it. Now SEB is fiber, so are you sure Mazy will be okay with that?

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Yes, that is what I was thinking. I think the grass has irritated her esophagus and stomach, she is still having a lot of issues even almost two weeks later. With the protection of the SEB coating, before I take them out, hopefully the grass will not be such a problem. I am going to try it the next time I take them out.

Fiber won't bother Mazy. She gets the occasional Vets-Best hairball relief tablet as in incentive dusting without any problems, and she has had psyllium on occasion also, but it's a good point to bring up.

jcat said:

I'm not so sure it would help Mazy, because slippery elm slows digestion. I've used it when transitioning to a new food or for mild diarrhea. The stuff I get is a small tub of powder, and the dose is 1/2 teaspoon for a 5 kg. cat (11 lbs.)/day. It's for short or long-term use, and can be put on food or given with a little cat milk or yogurt.

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Thanks Tricia! I am not looking for help with her digestion in this instance. Cats don't digest grass. They either bring it up or, like fur, it goes through the system and is passed out through the feces. I would prefer Mazy to bring it back up, but she just doesn't. It is my fervent hope that the SEB will help her move the grass through, since she just will not bring it back up.

LDG said:

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/slippery-elm-000274.htm

I think vball91's idea that giving it to her before going out may help.

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Seems to be the general consensus. Thank you all for your comments, and for the help with the dosage. I am feeling a little more hopeful.

The directions on the jar say to mix the SEB with boiling water. Is that important? Seems you guys just use hot water, then wait for it to cool?

I know if said this before, but truly, if this were any other cat I'd have her to the vet and run her through every diagnostic test out there. But Mazy...she has such a terrible fear of stainless steel, especially cages, I just can't put her through it without real serious cause. And to look at her, it seems ludicrous to think she would need anything like that. She's the picture of perfect health, and you should see her play, at 9 years old! She even still does the sideways come and get me prance.

I've never used boiling water, just hot or even lukewarm. Then I mix it and give it a minute or two to gel up. Mix with FD beef. Serve. Sometimes gets eaten.

Otto, you know Mazy and all your cats so well. I didn't even think about a vet visit for something like this. I think you've identified the issue and come up with a possible solution. If it doesn't work, you might have to figure out how to keep her from eating the cat grass in the first place. That's a whole different problem!

Thanks! Well the vet and I have discussed Mazy's problems many times. She agrees with me that diagnostics are not needed at this time. I'm not sure if she agrees with me about the c/d causing these problems in the first place, but I know I have given her lots to think about.

Vet also will not comment on the SEB, because, while she is supportive of the raw diet, she doesn't know anything about herbal remedies and is rather fearful of their use. She would prefer I use carafate, but I can't imagine getting that nasty stuff into Mazy.

I can't stop Mazy eating the grass when we are in the yard. It isn't cat grass, it's just...grass...in our yard. I am not going to take that summer enjoyment away from them or me, I just can't do it you know? I've got to have some pleasure in life! And spending a warm Sunday afternoon out in our yard is one of my biggest pleasures.

So I am going to try giving her the SEB before we go out. Gosh I hope it helps her.

I don't want to deprive them or me of this!: I know it's long (3 1/2 minutes) but if you watch it all the way through you will see how easily they go in when it's time!

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

Just a thought...why is the grass a problem?  How do you know it is the grass that is slowing her digestion, or that it is a problem that the grass doesn't pass quickly (presumably she has other bowel movements within 9 days?)

Thanks for your reply! I don't think the grass is slowing her digestion. I think the grass is aggravating or causing more inflammation and gas, causing more regurgitation and discomfort. Also, grass is sharp, and if her esophagus is inflamed, as the grass goes down it may be aggravating that condition.

I know when she passed the grass because I have been watching her bowel movements daily, (actually I am in the habit of inspecting all bowel movements haha) waiting to see it in there, and I did not find grass in her poop until 9 days after we were outside. Which means all the time it was in the digestive tract, esophagus, stomach, intestines, it was causing more inflammation and gas.

This is all conjecture of course, but I have been dealing with Mazy's issues for a long time, so I feel fairly confident that I am on the right track. Up until we went outside, yes she still has periodic spells of regurgitation, but nothing like what she's just been through.

Last year, I was giving her a large blob of petroleum based hairball remedy after every outing, to help move the grass through, and that seemed to do it, but I am now convinced that those petroleum products are highly toxic, and I won't use them any more.

I was thinking that Slippery Elm Bark, with it's anti-inflammatory properties, and it's soothing, coating property, might be just the thing to give her some protection on the days we go outside.

All other thoughts are welcome, too, of course.

Mazy had some SEB this morning! Laurie you're right it DOES smell like maple! It smells yummy! Now I know why the Vets-Best hairball relief tablets smell the way they do!

I gave her only half of a 1/4 teaspoon mixed with a little water then mixed into .4 oz of Rad Cat turkey. She ate it right up, but looked rather thoughtful for a couple of minutes afterward :lol3:

She kept it down.

Last night she regurgitated a Rad Cat meal with a huge hairball in it. With all the puking she's been doing lately, I can't imagine why she hadn't brought it up before. Because of the way the grass and fur seems to lodge, vet is thinking there may be a motility problem...she may be right about that, but I do not want to start Mazy cat on cisapride.

Perhaps the SEB will be the answer. I've been saving it as a 'last resort' all this time....and now here we are at that last resort.

Wish there was a holistic vet available for my Mazy cat. She is just as playful as ever. Dancing sideways to get my attention...play with me play with me mommie!

PS Doesn't look like we'll be getting out into our yard this Sunday, going by the weather forecast so I won't be trying it for the grass eating issue yet, but I am going to gradually work her up to 1/4 teaspoon twice a week anyway, with the one dose always falling on a Sunday.

Otto, does she eat the egg yolk lecithin without a problem? You might want to consider increasing the amount you give her. Right now, I'm giving the "hairball boys" a FULL pill in the AM and 2/3 of a pill each in the PM. But I suggest this not solely because the dose she's getting isn't emulsifying the fat, but because the acetylcholine in the lecithin helps improve motility. :nod: And if she's OK with the Swanson brand, it's higher in choline than the Nature's Plus.

You can also consider bumping the amount of raw egg yolk you're feeding her instead, as it's much higher in choline than the EYL.

LDG said:

Otto, does she eat the egg yolk lecithin without a problem? You might want to consider increasing the amount you give her. Right now, I'm giving the "hairball boys" a FULL pill in the AM and 2/3 of a pill each in the PM. But I suggest this not solely because the dose she's getting isn't emulsifying the fat, but because the acetylcholine in the lecithin helps improve motility. :nod: And if she's OK with the Swanson brand, it's higher in choline than the Nature's Plus.

You can also consider bumping the amount of raw egg yolk you're feeding her instead, as it's much higher in choline than the EYL.

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Thank you Laurie! You always find a way to bring HOPE!

Mazy likes the egg yolk lecithin just fine, in fact they all love it (thank goodness!). She couldn't handle the rice flour in the Swanson brand so she is still getting the Nature's Plus, but the other two get the Swansons. If choline will help with motility I will increase her raw egg yolk. Is it possible to have a choline deficiency, and that could be why she is suddenly having so much trouble?

She likes egg yolk too, but will eat only about .3 oz of yolk at a time. A large egg yolk varies in weight from .3 to .6 oz I've discovered, so I will have to pass on leftovers to the other two when needed. Will that end up giving the other two too much choline, if I give them each .3 oz of raw egg yolk three times a week (in addition to the egg yolk lecithin)

I like the idea of giving her something on days she's not having the SEB, for consistency.

I guess I better make more room in my small refrigerator for a larger container of eggs.

With the diet you've been feeding, it's very unlikely she's got a choline deficiency. This is far more likely just related to her ongoing GI issues. :rub: (And let's face it, it is shedding season. ).

There is no "safe upper limit" established for choline - I really don't know if it's possible to have "too much." I do know that the holistic vet Carolina saw when she started Bugsy on raw (a famous vet, published natural care books, etc.) recommends a choline supplement for ANY cat over the age of 7. Apparently it also helps prevent dementia (which concurs with everything I've seen looking up info on choline/egg yolk lecithin). This is a link to the supplement he recommends: http://www.mvp-cholodin.net/ It didn't have enough info about it for me to be interested (and likely the same for you!).

Bummer about the rice in the Swanson. It has a lot more choline in it than the Nature's Plus. But go with the raw egg yolk then - it beats the amount of choline in the lecithin by miles anyway!

Thanks Laurie. Mazy is starting to feel a lot better now. She was up on the Tower by the window this morning watching the birds eat. Seeing her there made me realize I HADN'T seen her there in at least a week.

So the plan of action now is SEB twice a week, Sunday (the day we go outside, if we do) and Wednesday, and egg yolk four times a week. Since she doesn't eat a whole one each time I thought I'd give her the egg yolk Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Jennie and Queen Eva can take turns with the other half of yolk.

Is egg yolk better given with food, or on an empty stomach, or doesn't matter?

LOVE, LOVE the video! Great yard and brilliant idea about the harness with the light lines attached. Goodness, never thought of trying that. :doh3: I don't have a fenced area yet in the new house but in the old home, we had an enclosed deck. BUT the cats could jump over the three foot railing easily. I was always nervously following them around like a helicopter mom, of course. Funny thing is that when I talk with people about training dogs, I always suggest the long line. Never thought of using it for keeping them safe in the back yard. Thanks for the tip!!!

None of my cats will eat the SEB !! :sick: They hate the smell. I have to syringe it into them or give a capsule followed with water and then they get their raw meal right after. I switched to using the Lecithin too. But have been bad lately about doling it out. .Great to hear Mazy is feeling better this morning. :rub:

Laurie - I am going to try the Swanson also - price is better too. I bet we all are dealing with the dreaded "hairball season".

Lauren, the increased dose of lecithin with SEB 2x a week seems to have resolved the hairball problem during shedding season. :cross:

Otto - I don't think it matters whether the egg yolk is fed alone or with other food. I mean - egg yolk is food, all by itself, right? I haven't seen anything on that, and it never occurred to me to ask. Perhaps you can try it both ways with Mazy, and let us know if one way works better than another? :dk: In the end, I'd be surprised if there was a difference.

I'm SO glad she's feeling better!

vball91 said:

1)


..snip..



ouldn't hurt when she had her vomiting issues. I do think now that it was more of an excess stomach acid issue. I stopped the SEB but continued with EYL and eggs alternated EOD. The vomiting has stopped, but I don't think the SEB was a factor.

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vball91 what is EOD?

Laurie, should I be concerned about weight gain? If Mazy is going to get .3 oz of raw egg yolk 4 days a week, should I be cutting out .3 oz of her food?

I'm pretty sure EOD is every-other-day.

And hunh, I don't know! Either replace some food with the egg yolk... or keep an eye on her weight. I feed the egg yolk and sardines as snacks - but I also include egg yolk in their ground, so it gets measured as part of the portion. And I adjusted the amount of food they get as we went along, so I imagine the adjustment included the "snacks" they were getting.

Today was the test. I gave Mazy cat a small amount of canned (.25 oz) mixed with the 1/4 teaspoon of SEB and 1 teaspoon of water 45 minutes before we went outside, (She also had SEB on Wednesday) It's been 3 weeks since she had any grass, today is first time we've been out since the grass issue happened as it has been cold since then.

I meant for the SEB to be ingested a half hour before going out but I got busy, so it was 45 minutes.

Mazy did not bring up the grass she ate. She has had her egg yolk four times in the past 8 days, including today, after we came back inside. Jennie did bring up grass. Queen Eva, thank the powers that be, does not eat grass.

So now I wait and see how long it takes for that grass to show up in her poop. And to see if she starts regurgitating her PMR meals. She is still having urpy days, and has regurgitated twice in the past 11 days. Poor kitty, I HATE that. She is in her off cycle of the pepcid.

A question about the egg yolk and motility. How long do you think it will take for the additional choline to have a positive effect?