Does my ragdoll look like a birman?

franksmom · Apr 16, 2013

Hi everyone,

I have a four year old registered ragdoll, who comes from a champion line and a reputable breeder. He is gorgeous but is a lot smaller than most Ragdoll males, only 10 pounds. This is actually what I wanted because in my line of work I may have to go abroad and I would have to take him under the seat with me on the plane, so that is why I decided on the runt. I have never really thought about him not looking like a Ragdoll, but my mother has made some comments about it over the years as he was very very expensive so she likes to tease me about it. Anyway I am getting a new Birman kitten and when I showed his picture to the breeder she said he looked more like a Briman than a Ragdoll (except for his sockless feet). It is interesting because the Birman breeders I have talked to seem to poo poo the Ragdoll as not being "pure". I realize Ragdolls were the result of mixing different breeds, but even Birmans have been mixed in order to expand the genepool after WW2 (though this seemed to offend the breeders when I brought it up lol). The Birman breeder told us she thought one of his grandparents must have been Birman and he inherited their looks. I don't really care about him being pure, but I am interested if other people think he looks more like a Birman than a Ragdoll? I also think the politics of genetics in the pure breed world are fascinating and weird.

Oh and in case anyone wants to flame me for having pure breeds, there is a very good reason behind it. We did have a rescue cat and were lied to by the shelter as the kitten was both feral and very sick. We spent thousands on the kitten and it was a terrible and tragic experience. That is why we go through breeders now so we can get a health guarantee and know for sure the cats were properly socialized and not taken away from their mother too soon. Actually Frank did have a URI when he was a kitten and all of the costs of treatment were covered by the breeder and he has not been sick since. I have recently found out that some foster organizations also do health guarantee as well so I may do that if I get another cat. I also only use registered breeders who make clients sign a contract not to declaw or take cat to a shelter and get all kittens fixed.

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

sivyaleah · Apr 16, 2013

First, welcome to TCS and what a stunning kitty you have! And don't worry, nobody here is going to flame you for having a purebred; lots of the members here have them

I'm no expert,but I did some research at one point as I nearly adopted a purebred from a shelter (yes, she was pure, it's a long story). I wasn't sure about the one I nearly adopted so I do some checking around at the time to learn about the breed.

Ragdolls do come in Seal Point, or some variation, which is what your kitty seems to be. It's a bit difficult to tell exactly, the photos are somewhat too far away so if you could take some close ups it would be great. Are his eyes blue? Also, not all of them are as large as the ideal; there are variations so that doesn't point to him being other than. Especially if he was the runt of the litter. Ragdolls are slow to mature, and while at 4 years old he should be at his full size, perhaps he hasn't quite caught up yet. IDK, he doesn't have a Birman look to me, but what do I know?

However, do you have the registration papers in hand? Or, did you get him from a breeder that just told you he's registered but, didn't provide you with the paperwork? If not, I'd be suspicious if he is purely Ragdoll.

franksmom · Apr 16, 2013

Thanks for your response and the welcome!

Yes his colouring is within the ragdoll guidelines and I do have papers for him. He also does have beautiful blue eyes. It is more his body shape and size that looks more birman than ragdoll. Ragdolls were actually a totally man made breed so they for sure have birman heritage (though the woman who started breeding them claimed they were part alien-which may be true in Frank's case lol). The birman breeder was sort of implying that most ragdolls have a fairly recent heritage of being mixed so that is why some of them look like the original breeds, and in Frank's case she said he looked more like a birman than what a breed standard ragdoll should look like.

here is his close up

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

sivyaleah · Apr 16, 2013

If you have papers, then he is what he is. Obviously, not show quality, as he was the runt, but pet quality and a great one at that. I hope he enjoys being groomed!

I think you can rest assured that the breeder was indeed reputable in this case. Perhaps the Birman heritage popped up more than it would have? Again, I am no expert, but I'm sure others who know a lot about linage will be able to say more. There are a couple of people here who know a lot about Ragdolls.

franksmom · Apr 16, 2013

Here is another close up of him demanding his freeze dried chicken.

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

Here he is giving me a dirty look as a kitten

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

And here is my new kitten she is a lynx point birman

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franksmom
Apr 16, 2013

franksmom · Apr 16, 2013

sivyaleah said:
If you have papers, then he is what he is. Obviously, not show quality, as he was the runt, but pet quality and a great one at that. I hope he enjoys being groomed!

I think you can rest assured that the breeder was indeed reputable in this case. Perhaps the Birman heritage popped up more than it would have? Again, I am no expert, but I'm sure others who know a lot about linage will be able to say more. There are a couple of people here who know a lot about Ragdolls.

Thanks and yes according to the birman breeder this is apparently common in ragdolls (though I am kind of suspect of her stance on the ragdoll breed). And yes he does like the ferminator, but I have to be careful because sometimes I take out way too much hair and he looks like a shorthair cat haha

maewkaew · Apr 16, 2013

He is a handsome blue point boy and if he came from a reputable show breeder who is successfully showing his relatives as Ragdolls, I see no reason to doubt his pedigree: Not every cat is going to be the typical size of their breed, and not every cat will meet the breed standard. He is not a show quality Ragdoll but no reason to think he is not a Ragdoll. and you knew he was the runt at the start, it's not like the entire litter was abnormally small size for the breed.

Your Raggie does have some traits rather like a Birman , but these traits are not so extreme and unique to Birmans that it would be proof a cat must have had a Birman grandparent. There are also domestics who have similar traits and certainly didn't have a Birman grandparent. I think he looks broader in the head than a Birman.

I find this Birman breeder's snobbism against Ragdolls being mixes pretty funny because the truth is Birmans are really a similar mix -- it's just that with Birmans it happened intentionally, while Ragdolls were originally developed mostly from some random-breeding longhair cats Ann Baker found on the streets of Riverside California, cats who had got the pointed gene passed down from some distant Siamese ancestors ( possibly via other breeds like Birman or Himalayan Persian) . Baker who was eccentric to say the least, told all sorts of stories including insane ones like the alien one you mentioned., and other breeders, when they were first trying to get the Ragdolls recognized by the established cat fancy, claimed that they were entirely created by crossing various existing breeds, thinking that sounded more respectable. There may have been some Birmans used in early Ragdoll breeding, but I think today it is pretty widely acknowledged that it was mostly not pedigreed cats. . In any case ALL breeds originally come from non-pedigreed cats, in one way or another. and the Ragdoll has been around since the 1960s. so there have been a lot of years to develop that breed. and they certainly would qualify as being a breed today. even if not exactly a natural breed.

However , neither are Birmans! You're absolutely right that no matter what one believes about their origins, Birmans today are certainly the result of crosses done to re-create the breed after it was virtually wiped out by the end of WW2.

But many people in the cat fancy have thought the breed was created by crosses in the first place -- that some French breeders crossed Siamese with various longhairs, and then made up a romantic story about them being a breed of temple cats from an exotic Southeast Asian location, as a marketing tactic, no doubt inspired by growing public interest in the Siamese and the various stories being passed around about them ( some of which were fanciful legends but actually from Siam / Thailand, some were true, some were half-truths about their association with royalty and about how Westerners had acquired Siamese cats, some of them were totally made up by Europeans .). But the difference is that in the case of the SIamese, there is a LOT of evidence to back up that they did indeed come from Siam (now Thailand) and had been there for centuries, and still are there. The diplomat who brought one of the first pairs of Siamese to England really did exist and his sister became a well-known Siamese breeder.

By contrast, the stories of how a pair of Birmans supposedly got from Burma to France are full of so many contradictions and claims for which there is no evidence -- things for which there should be evidence if it were true. like the existence of the British Army officer who supposedly helped to repel an invasion and save the priests of this temple and was given a pair of cats.

There is just too much that seems to have been a lie. and if

Also the cats KNOWN to come from that part of the world have very short coats as one would expect from the climate.

It does not surprise me that some Birman breeders still cling to this romantic origin story; after all there are breeders or other breeds who are also very uninformed about the history of their breed. and in the case of the Birman, it's all pretty murky trying to sort out what was the truth. and I guess it is more fun to believe the exotic stories.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having pedigreed cats from a good breeder. I have had both pedigreed cats and rescues and loved them both.

franksmom · Apr 16, 2013

maewkaew said:
He is a handsome blue point boy and if he came from a reputable show breeder who is successfully showing his relatives as Ragdolls, I see no reason to doubt his pedigree: Not every cat is going to be the typical size of their breed, and not every cat will meet the breed standard. He is not a show quality Ragdoll but no reason to think he is not a Ragdoll. and you knew he was the runt at the start, it's not like the entire litter was abnormally small size for the breed.

Your Raggie does have some traits rather like a Birman , but these traits are not so extreme and unique to Birmans that it would be proof a cat must have had a Birman grandparent. There are also domestics who have similar traits and certainly didn't have a Birman grandparent. I think he looks broader in the head than a Birman.

I find this Birman breeder's snobbism against Ragdolls being mixes pretty funny because the truth is Birmans are really a similar mix -- it's just that with Birmans it happened intentionally, while Ragdolls were originally developed mostly from some random-breeding longhair cats Ann Baker found on the streets of Riverside California, cats who had got the pointed gene passed down from some distant Siamese ancestors ( possibly via other breeds like Birman or Himalayan Persian) . Baker who was eccentric to say the least, told all sorts of stories including insane ones like the alien one you mentioned., and other breeders, when they were first trying to get the Ragdolls recognized by the established cat fancy, claimed that they were entirely created by crossing various existing breeds, thinking that sounded more respectable. There may have been some Birmans used in early Ragdoll breeding, but I think today it is pretty widely acknowledged that it was mostly not pedigreed cats. . In any case ALL breeds originally come from non-pedigreed cats, in one way or another. and the Ragdoll has been around since the 1960s. so there have been a lot of years to develop that breed. and they certainly would qualify as being a breed today. even if not exactly a natural breed.

However , neither are Birmans! You're absolutely right that no matter what one believes about their origins, Birmans today are certainly the result of crosses done to re-create the breed after it was virtually wiped out by the end of WW2.

But many people in the cat fancy have thought the breed was created by crosses in the first place -- that some French breeders crossed Siamese with various longhairs, and then made up a romantic story about them being a breed of temple cats from an exotic Southeast Asian location, as a marketing tactic, no doubt inspired by growing public interest in the Siamese and the various stories being passed around about them ( some of which were fanciful legends but actually from Siam / Thailand, some were true, some were half-truths about their association with royalty and about how Westerners had acquired Siamese cats, some of them were totally made up by Europeans .). But the difference is that in the case of the SIamese, there is a LOT of evidence to back up that they did indeed come from Siam (now Thailand) and had been there for centuries, and still are there. The diplomat who brought one of the first pairs of Siamese to England really did exist and his sister became a well-known Siamese breeder.

By contrast, the stories of how a pair of Birmans supposedly got from Burma to France are full of so many contradictions and claims for which there is no evidence -- things for which there should be evidence if it were true. like the existence of the British Army officer who supposedly helped to repel an invasion and save the priests of this temple and was given a pair of cats.

There is just too much that seems to have been a lie. and if

Also the cats KNOWN to come from that part of the world have very short coats as one would expect from the climate.

It does not surprise me that some Birman breeders still cling to this romantic origin story; after all there are breeders or other breeds who are also very uninformed about the history of their breed. and in the case of the Birman, it's all pretty murky trying to sort out what was the truth. and I guess it is more fun to believe the exotic stories.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having pedigreed cats from a good breeder. I have had both pedigreed cats and rescues and loved them both.

Thanks so much for your response! This is all very interesting stuff for me. I also find they orgin myth of the Birman very suspect and why are there not any birmans actually in Burma? The breeder gave us this sheet that stated there were paintings of Birmans found in Burmese and Tibetan temples. The funny thing is I have been to Tibet and did not see pictures of Birmans anywhere, but I shall have to do some investigations into this. We have met with a few Birman breeders and they seem almost fanatical about this origin story. I actually think this would be a great academic research project. If my french was better I would love to read some of the early accounts of when Birmans appeared in France. I think you are probably right that the myths of the Birmans were largely a marketing tool sort of like the myth that ragdolls go limp (though this is kind of true in Frank's case as he is super placid for the most part when held).

maewkaew · Apr 17, 2013

Yes it would be an interesting research project... could be difficult . I remember Brian Vesey Fitzgerald wrote something about it, they were trying to find out about this British officer mentioned in the most common versions of the story. and there was no military record of a British Army officer named Russell Gordon or Gordon Russell to coincide with the story. He was sometimes referred to as "the Honorable Russell Gordon" or perhaps with the names reversed. but neither of the two noble families he could have belonged to knew anything about such a person.

Another problem was I heard someone say that from a history and religion standpoint the story did not make sense.

In the various versions of the story the male cat dies on the trip but the female is already pregnant. One of the French breeders had written some account saying that since they had no other Sacré de Birmanie to breed her with after that, they bred her to a "Laotian Lynx Cat" belonging to a certain doctor in Nice. But then later when interviewed, this doctor had no idea about it and said the cats from Laos were the same as the cats from Siam

But i heard something about later someone visiting Tibet was given a "Tibetan Temple Cat" that looked like a Birman.

The difficulty now is that globalization has affected cats, too. so the presence today of a longhair cat in that region would not be nearly so significant as it would have been in the 1800s.

Here is at least one Birman breeder who is skeptical of the legend. http://www.birmanbreed.net/legend/about-the-birman-origin.html

StefanZ · Apr 17, 2013

Legends,yeah. Maewkaew, I had once made up a scenario for a wonderful story about "holy birman"s appeareance as coming up from "countries down there", temples buddhists monks and all, at the 1300-years". But you hint they couldnt have beeing longhaired. IF, so shorthaired. So what breed shall I contribute this story to? Korates?

By some reason, Im not sold on using Siameses here. Perhaps because I think they are older still.

The saga of Russian Blue is btw fullwritten and clear cut, Archangelsk, ships to England, reconstruction after WWII and all, so there I dont have any problems.

maewkaew · Apr 17, 2013

Stefan, if the breed was just developed in France not in Burma, it would be most likely from Siamese crossed with longhairs that had white spotting -- and perhaps by chance had the gene for white gloves. French breeder of the Sacré de Birmanie was also a Siamese breeder.

Some Korats were exported very early too but not so many as the pointed cats.

I don't see that the Wichienmaat / Maewkaew (Siamese) would be any older than the Si Sawat / Dork Lao/ Korat cat. the evidence for both is the same Tamra Maew manuscripts. They've both been in Thailand for centuries, it's not even possible to know how far back but you're right the manuscripts go back to the 1300s-1700s period. Both Korats and Siamese may have been around long before 1300s.

I don't absolutely rule out that there COULD be cats who look like Birmans in a mountainous area of that region. The longhair mutation has probably happened separately in different places. It does not seem likely in that climate, though . But also there's the possibilty of people bringing longhair cats from elsewhere. Many countries without native longhairs have had Persians imported by pet stores or breeders, or just brought as pets with people who came there. and those cats could have bred with pointed shorthair cats. so that could be a reason for photos of longhair pointed cats.

If there was truth to where those original Birmans came from, why spread such false stories and keep telling different ones?

With the SIamese there have been exaggerations, for example the story of Mr. Gould getting a pair of Wichienmaat (Siamese) cats in Siam that he brought back to the UK and gave to his sister, was embellished by other SIamese fanciers into a story of the cats being a gift from King Chulalongkorn - to give it a more dramatic narrative, in one version the King offers him anything he wants as a parting gift and he chooses the cats, and the king is all dismayed because he usually never allows the cats to be given to any foreigners or commoners, but he has promised so he reluctantly lets him have a pair of cats.

However Gould's sister wrote about how he had said he bought one of the cats for 3 baht and it's not likely the king sold the cat to him for 3 baht -- he probably bought it in a market. It's just that Western fanciers liked to believe the Siamese cats were all kept in the palace in some strict breeding program personally overseen by the king. .Which was not true, although some members of the royal family had at times been involved in breeding them. but it wasn't a strictly royal thing. ( It was more the all white Khaomanee that was a royal favorite at that time.)

What I mean is that with the Siamese there has been some exaggerations and distortions, but it's not like the people are totally fictional. There is a lot of documentation.

With the Birman, there is not even evidence of the existence of the person who supposedly saved the temple and was given the cats . Its not just like it was a real person who brought back a cat and then later people embelished the story to make it more dramatic.

In a later version of the story, an American millionaire from the Vanderbilt family bribed a servant of the temple to smuggle out a pair of cats. But after going to that trouble, why would this million aire not bring them back to the USA but instead gave them to some Siamese breeder in France? In any case there is no evidence of that having happened at all.

Not only that , from a religious, linguistic and historic standpoint the whole thing sounds like it was totally made up by Westerners.

Here are some comments from the Talk section of the Wikipedia article that point out these problems. One person does mention having done research in France.

"Legend"

The legend has no citation, and is certainly not true, more likely the product of some Western fantasizing about the history of the cat. The bit about "Kittah" priests is unfortunate enough, but this entire section is too much. First of all, the Khmer people are from Cambodia, not Burma, although their empire once controlled portions of Burma. Secondly, the Khmer were Hindu, generally Vaisnites, and there was no goddess such as the one mentioned. The Siamese did not migrate to SE Asia until after Burma was out of Khmer hands, so the story is historically impossible for that reason alone. Lastly, the names in the legend are all Chinese, not Burmese and certainly not Khmer. In fact, other than "Khmer" (which means Cambodian) none of the proper names here can be substantiated anywhere else on Wikipeida (Mount Lugh? Phoums? Mun-Ha?). I'm going to put a citation tag here. It needs citations to scholarly sources -- i.e. from sources on Southeast Asian history and religion, not a website about cats. It's fine to put this as a made up "story" as long as there is a citation for the background and its clear that it's not real history.113.22.66.88 (talk) 15:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Gah. The opening line, that all this took place before the birth of the Buddha, is even more exceptional. The Buddha lived centuries before any of the people or states alluded to in this legend existed, or had even arrived in SE Asia -- including the Khmers. The whole thing needs to go.113.22.66.88 (talk) 15:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Notes:

I have added several information about Birman history based on my readings of French documents at the French National Library François Mitterand in Paris and on Auguste Pavie Mission in Indo-China, as he is one of the scholar always falsely quoted for that time in relationships with the first Birmans' arrival in France). I also added notes about the first French pedigrees about the introduction of the new colors: Blue and Chocolate. I also added notes about Mme Marcelle Adams and the improbable historicity of the legend. Alescart June 28, 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 06:04, 28 June 2010 (UTC).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Birman

and I have read somewhere from a book Les Secrets du Chat Sacré de Birmanie , a French breeder who started breeding them in the 1950s says she was told the various legends and it sounds like initially she did not question them but later thought it was fiction. and thinks they came from crosses of Siamese and Persians or other longhairs some of which must have happened to have the white gloving gene.

StefanZ · Apr 18, 2013

Tx for the wealth of knowledge, Maewkaew!

So Maewkaew is Siamese cat in original? Cool.

StefanZ · Apr 18, 2013

FranksMom, to give you some comfort, I will retell some learning I got when I began to be interested by pure bred cats.

One difficulty was, it was not always easy to see the difference between Ragdolls and Birmans.

The afficionados did saw them, as there are several telling differences, but for a newbe it was more difficult to remember which was which, I never remembered the maze of details too look after.

Already here we do see, sometimes they ARE quite similiar, even as seen on shows (although perhaps not among the show winners

). While in other cases we do see immediately which is which, even a newbe does it.

What I was told, the easiest to see crucial difference, was, a Birman has always socks, and Ragdoll doesnt.

The only problem is, there is one variant in Ragdolls who does has socks. So if a registered Ragdoll with socks also happens to remind of a Birman, you got stuck if you arent a real expert. But this is just a small minority, so in 95% of cases, you havent no real problem with identification.

Dont look too much on the muzzle or anything, look at the feet and socks.

maewkaew · Apr 18, 2013

StefanZ said:
Tx for the wealth of knowledge, Maewkaew!

So Maewkaew is Siamese cat in original? Cool.

Yes Maewkaew is one of the traditional names for the Siamese. It means Jewel Cat. ( or literally Cat Jewel ; Maew = cat, Kaew = Jewel) Maewkaew is the name used on most of the medieval-era Tamra Maew manuscripts for the cat Westerners call the Siamese.

Wichienmaat is the name used on the most ancient manuscript, and is the name more commonly known and still used today in Thailand. That one means Diamond Gold -- or possibly Moon Diamond but the translator of the Tamra Maew himself now thinks it is Diamonds & Gold. He had previously translated it as Moon Diamond which sounds so poetic, I loved it, .... but after more research and consultation with experts in ancient Thai literature , ended up finding out that the word in the manuscript transliterated as Maat, that he had first guessed was an alternate spelling for "Moon", was actually an ancient word for "Gold". and fits in with how they often called them by the name of some valuable object. so he now thinks Gold is the more likely real meaning, but now there are all these people who believed the earlier translation and have repeated it everywhere. and you can see all over the Internet the translation as "Moon Diamond".

bonobosoph · Apr 18, 2013

I have nothing of real worth to say, I am no expert.

But I have to say that your new kitten is STUNNING! She looks like a wild fox!

Does my ragdoll look like a birman?

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