Spaying and neutering Siamese

I am working with a breeder and just had my first litter of kittens.  My breeder and I have had very heated discussions on spaying and neutering.  I was planning on having the kittens neutered at 10 weeks and then to their new homes at 12 weeks.  She would prefer me to have a spay/neuter contract that stated the registration papers will not be given until there is vet proof they have been altered.  She says that Siamese are known to be more sensitive to anesthesia and she has had some that died.  I have read journals from American veterinary Journal of Medicine and various University journals and I can't find any studies that say not to neuter a Siamese at an early age.  I actually can't find any articles relating specifically to Siamese.  I have also called several vets and other breeders in the area that all neuter their cats at 12-14 weeks.  There are two breeders that I found that require a spay neuter certificate.  I would like to feel secure with my choice to neuter early. 

I forgot to mention that she suggests neutering at 6 months.

If you fall out with this breeder, will it be a big problem?  I have three Orientals and one Siamese, all bar my future breeding girl neutered before 6 months with no problems.  6 months is too late in my view - most Siamese mature early.  And I can see exactly where you are coming from - you don't want your precious kittens falling into the hands of a BYB or a girl accidentally getting pregnant.

BTW what is a 'spay neuter certificate'?  I'm in the UK, presume you are in the US.

A spay neuter certificate is just a promise on a piece of paper that is signed by the breeder and the new owner promising to have the cat neutered by a certain age and proven by a veterinary signature or report. Usually the new owner is not given the cats registration papers until the vet report is given to the breeder. I have always thought they were an accident waiting to happen but I have talked to very reputable breeders who use them. In this matter I can do what I feel is right. I have been seriously discouraged though and want to hear what other breeders or owners of Siamese have said about early neutering. Or if anyone knows of a legit study specifically about Siamese that would be wonderful.

I had read Holy Birman may be sensitive to anasthesia. Which perhaps indirectly means Siameses arent particuraly known to be sensitive, because this article would mention them too. Siameses is so big a breed, any such problem would be known.

But fire sure proofs I dont have. 

I shall PM our forumite Maewkaw, she is very good at tracking down good sites (OR she know them by heart). She is also interested and active breeder.

Good luck!

Great, thank you

I know some Siamese breeders who have been doing early altering for many years now and haven't had problems. Kittens usually done at about the age you mention 10 wks, but depends on the kitten. If smaller they may keep them longer.
In fact early altering is recommended in my breed club's code of ethics, but it's not mandatory, and there are also breeders who still use a s/n agreement in a contract. One I know who has been breeding for decades, said that there has only been one time she did not get the s/n confirmation from the new owners' vet and lost track of them. . She may just be good at screening kitten clients. I think her vet is more old fashioned and it is really the vet who is just not very comfortable doing it.
I do think with breeds that often come reach puberty young, you don't want the risk of them getting pregnant at 4 or 5 months!

But it depends what is used for anesthesia ( and also depends on the care taken in monitoring).

The drug used in anesthesia that I have MOST heard about being risky in Siamese and related breeds is ketamine. This has been discussed many times on the Fanciers Health Yahoo Group, which I recommend you join . For example it is talked about in this thread http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/fanciershealth/message/141067 The last message in it actually gives a protocol that a Tonkinese breeders vet came up with for their cats . which are of course closely related to Siamese.

In another post on there from a couple years ago, I will quote an Oriental breeder:
"orientals or slinkies in general are cheap drunks - they have no body fat,
they don't handle anesthesia the same as regular cats. They are very prone
to adverse effects from something like the ketamine cocktail used for
induction. I had a cat crash on a quarter dose of that cocktail - he was only 2
years old, no kidney or liver issues. We're lucky we could save him, it took
many days.

I'm leery of those type of anesthesia cocktails - my vet seems to have
pretty good success with propofol and then isoflurane gas, another vet has good
luck with masking with sevo and maintaining with sevoflurane gas.

I don't know that there are any safe anesthesia drugs. Probably more
important is the monitoring they do while your cat is under anesthesia - there
is no excuse these days not to monitor BP, O2 sat, pulse, respiration, temp, etc.

Just make sure whichever veterinarian is putting a slinky under knows that
they have no body fat, they have to be kept warm and they need much less of
the anesthesia. "
In my cats they are not as slender as the modern type of Siamese . but still tend to be more slender than an average cat of western ancestry.
I don't think these issues stop you from doing early altering, but think more in terms of kitten's weight and general health. if a girl kitten is under 2.5 pounds I would rather wait. ( the spay of a female kitten being longer and much more invasive than castration of a male kitten)

One other comment is that it could depend on the lines. since an inherited heart defect or kidney problem could make anesthesia more risky.

I know most people say it is safe but I had a lot of problems with my ragdoll who was an early neuter at I think 10 or 12 weeks. He ended up getting a really bad URI and the vet said it was from the stress of the surgery. The breeder we got him from said she would never do another early spay/neuter with her kittens because of the health problems the kittens had afterwards (this was her first time doing it and btw he is super healthy now and has never been sick since).  We are getting a Birman and the breeder has or course made us sign a contract to get the kitten spayed but has advised not to do it until she is 8 months (as mentioned above birmans have a lot of problems with sedation). The breeder we are using keeps tabs on all her kittens and has a large fine in the contract if you do not desex or allow your cat to have kittens- I think this is a pretty big deterrent. If you really get to know the people adopting your kittens and keep in close contact that should also prevent any BYB situations. It is not fool proof but you may want to listen to the breeder you are working with because problems do occur especially in certain breeds. I for one would not risk another early spay/neuter because of what happened with my ragdoll.
 

Either he picked up a virus at the vets or he was carrying one. URIs are caused by a virus, stress can reduce the cats ability to continued it but it doesn't magic a virus out of thin air.

OrientalSlave said:

Either he picked up a virus at the vets or he was carrying one. URIs are caused by a virus, stress can reduce the cats ability to continued it but it doesn't magic a virus out of thin air.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it is not uncommon they got URI when they move to the new home. Not because they had that uri already earlier, but just because the move stressed them out.  Ie, they had virus in them, not disturbing them and sleeping, and they move / stress provoked forward the outburst.

In moving - and surely also at this surgery mentioned.

But OK, its true, surgery / anaestesia is stressing for them.  Things can happen. Good we got a reminder.

OrientalSlave said:

Either he picked up a virus at the vets or he was carrying one. URIs are caused by a virus, stress can reduce the cats ability to continued it but it doesn't magic a virus out of thin air.

Click to expand...

Of course I meant contain it, or supress it, I sent that from my mobile phone!

They actually all got sick at the vets before they moved. For sure they probably picked up the virus there, but vet said it was because of stress of surgery that there immune systems were compromised. They also didn't do very well during the surgery so both vet and breeder decided not to do it again on such young kittens. Probably most  kittens are fine but I just wanted to point out sometimes there are issues and I for one would not want to do it on a 10 week kitten again, but I do also understand the other side too.
 

How long where they at the vets? Developing it there sounds like they already had it.