Much better coat with lesser quality food

Hi all,

I used to feed my cats this brand:

Pronature Holistic

Turkey, chicken meal, brown rice, chicken fat naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, dried potato products, pearled barley, oat groats, herring meal, dried cranberries, dried egg product, natural chicken flavor, peas, dried apple pomace, dried tomato pomace, calcium carbonate, whole flaxseed, lecithin, choline chloride, monosodium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, sodium bisulfate, taurine, yeast extract, crab and shrimp meal, ferrous sulfate, DL methionine, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), dried chicory root (a source of inulin), zinc oxide, sodium selenite, alpha tocopherol acetate (a source of vitamin E), New Zealand green mussels, sea cucumber, nicotinic acid, Yucca schidigera extract, calcium iodate, manganous oxide, D calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin A supplement, cholecalciferol (a source of vitamin D₃), biotin, organic dried blueberries, organic dried pineapple, organic ginger, organic quinoa, organic anise seed, organic dried seaweed meal, organic dehydrated alfalfa meal, organic green tea extract, organic dried rosemary, organic dried parsley, organic dried spearmint, organic turmeric, organic dried thyme, organic cinnamon, organic dried spinach, organic dried broccoli, organic dried cauliflower, zinc proteinate, vitamin B₁₂ supplement, cobalt carbonate, manganese proteinate, folic acid, copper proteinate.

My cats were doing great, their coats were unbelievably smooth, a great improvement from the previous food. But then the store didn't sell it any longer and I switched to Felidae Pure Elements, which have a better quality on paper (it's more expensive too):

Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb, potatoes, potato protein, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), natural flavor, fish meal, choline chloride, DL-methionine, taurine, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, zinc proteinate, vitamin E supplement, niacin, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, potassium iodide, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, manganous oxide, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, papaya, pineapple.

Within days, their coats got worse, gone were the silky smoothness. I wonder why? Now it's been almost a month since the switch and no improvement on the coats. I guess I have to settle with this.

Sounds like a lot of non meat ingredients to me. Have you thought about feeding raw?

But still, the first three ingredients are meat and the protein is 39%.

My cats don't have the slightest interest in eating raw, even when they're starving, so I just stopped trying.

Not all foods work for all cats. You could try looking for another brand that has a similar ingredient list and see if that one agrees with them more.

have you tried looking for the brand on the internet? and try a different brand like nature variety instinct ,solid gold indigo moon ,before grain i feed thous three and there coats are allot better

Willowy said:

Not all foods work for all cats. You could try looking for another brand that has a similar ingredient list and see if that one agrees with them more.

Click to expand...

yeah, I'm definitely changing their food after this.

Mewlittle said:

have you tried looking for the brand on the internet? and try a different brand like nature variety instinct ,solid gold indigo moon ,before grain i feed thous three and there coats are allot better

Click to expand...

yes, and it's got favorable reviews, although some cats vomit / have diarrhea due to its richness.

unfortunately nature variety is expensive here. I guess I'll try chicken soup next.

Given all the meals in the foods, are you feeding dry? You might want to consider wet foods, if that's an option in your budget.

You could also try giving the kitties a salmon oil supplement. It's so healthy for them anyway. :rub:

LDG said:

Given all the meals in the foods, are you feeding dry? You might want to consider wet foods, if that's an option in your budget.

You could also try giving the kitties a salmon oil supplement. It's so healthy for them anyway.

Click to expand...

I'm feeding dry with canned twice a week. What has "all the meals" got to do with anything? Pardon my ignorance. Salmon oil is a good idea, can I use the ones for human?

Meal is an ingredient in kibble, but typically not seen in wet food. It matters only insofar as I noticed the first one had green lipped mussels in it. Green lipped mussel oil is sold as an omega 3 supplement. But if it was in a kibble, it would have been processed to death, so likely did not contribute to the coat quality difference you've seen in your cats. The omega 3s cannot survive the high heat process required multiple times to create kibble.

As to your other question, yes, you can use the salmon oil meant for humans. If your cats are adults, 500mg is an appropriate dose. My cats range in size from 7 pounds to 14 pounds, and they each get 500mg a day.

Another supplement specifically for skin issues and coat problems is Evening Primrose Oil. I have one cat that additionally receives 500mg of Evening Primrose oil a day.

Of course, their coat condition is directly related to the quality of the food, so you'd still want to seek out a better food. It's best to look for something with as few grains, fruits, and veggies as possible. Cats really thrive on meat-based foods that are low carb (and grain-free isn't synonymous with low carb).

I don't know if you've seen this already, but just in case, it's very informative, written by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org

Oh - quick comment on the salmon oil meant for humans. Just make sure it has nothing else added (like lemon). The "no fishy taste" salmon oils for humans usually have additives. For cats, it needs to be just the oil. :nod: I use one that's a bit expensive, but very high quality: Pure Alaska Omega. If you're in the US, it's available at Costco or on Amazon.

dan138zig said:

yeah, I'm definitely changing their food after this.

yes, and it's got favorable reviews, although some cats vomit / have diarrhea due to its richness.

unfortunately nature variety is expensive here. I guess I'll try chicken soup next.

Click to expand...

i have chicken soup coming in the mail i have no idea how my pets are you to react to it did you try canyon creek?

never heard of canyon creek before, but the kibbles look cool:

i feed it 3 times as a snack or treat my cats died for it not died as in dead but as in went nuts lol

Hi Dan138zig,

You are correct in your discovery that price does not equal quality.  What equals quality is the amount of MEAT (high) and the absence of grains, fruits, vegetables etc.  The reason for this is that cats simply have no way to process non-animal matter; but non-animal matter is cheaper for the manufacturer, and that's why it is in there.  

Now, this is a very important concept.  I see you are looking at the protein percentage of the 'food'.  You can't do this.  Pet foods have to be analysed for protein to meet the minimum guidelines, and the manufacturers also know marketability wise, we want high protein.  The test for protein simply tests for Nitrogen - a component in the protein molecule.  Therefore, anything with nitrogen will tick the box.  Plant proteins for example - and yes, they are cheaper.  Just a quick look at the ingredients you list will show 'potato protein'.  But woopdedo - cats can't derive nutrition from this.  Other things you will see that boost the protein in a non-meat manner are gluten and soya products.  Unfortunately, the story gets quite insidious as in 2007 Melamine scandal that killed thousands of pets.  What happened here was the pet food manufacturer wanted to boost the protein content cheaply and ordered gluten from China.  This will test positive for Nitrogen, so 'meet' the protein requirement.  The Chinese manufacturer wanted to get more money too...so they packaged melamine instead of gluten.  This also tests positive for Nitrogen - but it isnt even food.  It's poisonous.  So, that's the run-down on the meaning of the protein percentages you see on packaging.

What you do need to do to get real meaning, is look at the ingredient list - just as you did in the first post.  The catinfo.org link provided by LDG has so much info for you to help you read the labels.  As LDG said, a real quick way to get more meat into their diet is to feed wet food (canned).  You will have far, far better amounts of meat in here than in ANY kibble.

I also note you ask what meal is.  This comes from rendering - a process of removing moisture.  So basically, cooking at really high heat.  And we know high heat denatures protein and destroys nutrients.  Unfortunately, it doesn't kill off mold toxins or medicines...but this is any issue introduced by the cleanliness and fit nature of the materials put into the rendering vat.  And so arises the second major problem of meal.  There is little regulation, little inspection, and legally, they can put in all the not-fit-for-human-consumption stuff.  Tests in the past have shown the euthanasia drug in meal, so what went into the vat?  There are a lot of sites out there that try to reveal the truth about pet food.  Here's one: http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/learn-the-truth-about-pet-food-ingredients.  Sometimes I read these and think they are just over-sensationalised, but regardless, on a nutrition standpoint as regards heat and quality of what is in the vat, I know that meal has negligible nutrition for a cat.  Plus, it is made by high heat, then added as an ingredient into another cooking process.  But, it is real cheap, and that's why it is in pet food.  So, when you read the ingredient label, you don't want to see meal.  And certainly not as a beginning ingredient (they are listed in order of quantity).

I hope that helps!

Hey, just read this.  I trust this vet, and the article explains very simply and clearly about commercial cat foods and what 'meal' is:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/selecting-a-good-commercial-pet-food/

Canyon Creek does look interesting. . .I looked it up, and the bits in the food are diced potatoes and zucchini! Which looks and sounds all very nice to humans, but cats, as obligate carnivores, don't derive any nutrition from vegetables. . .ah, marketing! :lol3:

Do check out the catinfo website. Very informative. For those reasons, I have switched my cats to all canned food, but when I did feed kibble, they did well on Chicken Soup. I hope your kitties do well on it too!

i got the canyon creek because the store had no other no grain then 4 days later I got the brands i buy in the mail :/

wow thanks for the insights about meal. I heard someone say that meal is better than "pure" meat because it's more "condensed" or something. And that article supports it too:

"Meals do contain higher proportions of protein than meat, since the fat and water have been removed."

what do you say about that?

Perhaps you missed the context of the comment? This is the section on meat meal in the article to which you linked at Little Big Cat (which is authored by Dr. Jean Hofve):

Rendering (basically a process of slow cooking) produces two major items: animal fat or tallow, and a processed product usually called “meat meal,” “meat and bone meal,” or “by-product meal.” (Due to historical quirks in naming, the term “by-product meal” refers to poultry, while the equivalent mammalian product is called “meat and bone meal.”)

Animals that are dead, dying, diseased, or disabled prior to reaching the slaughterhouse are known as “downers” or “4D” animals. These are usually condemned, in whole or in part, for human consumption, and are generally sent for rendering along with other by-products, parts and items that are unwanted or unsuitable for human use – such as out-of-date supermarket meats (along with their plastic wrappers), cut-away cancerous tissue, and fetal tissue (which is very high in hormones).

Rendered ingredients vary greatly in quality. A few rendering facilities are closely associated with slaughterhouses, which are in turn connected with feedlots or poultry farms. These “captive” rendering plants are more likely to produce good quality, relatively pure meals. Such meals are typically designated with the name of the source animal, such as “chicken meal.”

Because of the way they are processed, dry foods must use meals as their major animal-source ingredients. Meals do contain higher proportions of protein than meat, since the fat and water have been removed. A few dry foods advertise that they contain some type of “meat” (such as chicken or beef) as the first or a top ingredient. However, because of the high water content of fresh meat, the actual percentage is small. The first named meal is usually the primary protein source in these foods.

Many independent renderers accept for processing such items as road kill, euthanized shelter dogs and cats, and other unappetizing ingredients. These items are not supposed to find their way into the pet food chain but are theoretically converted for use in fertilizers, livestock feeds, and industrial applications. Over the years there have been numerous unsubstantiated reports of this material being processed into dog and cat food. The Center for Veterinary Medicine, a branch of the Food and Drug Administration, admits that dead dogs and cats are commonly rendered, and although there is no legal prohibition against using dogs and cats in pet food, they do not “condone” the practice. All the large, reputable pet food manufacturers certify that they do not use such materials in their products.

Rendered products are found almost exclusively in dry food (which we do not recommend for cats; see Why Cats Need Canned Food for more information.)

Click to expand...

Here is more information:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/254293/...here-do-you-think-euthanized-cats-dogs-end-up

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245614/...by-products-meal-or-rather-not-think-about-it

And this thread is where I decided to make homemade food for my cats: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food

Hi Dan138zig, yeah, the context is important.  It's actually saying meal is rubbish.

Remember what I said about protein and how they test for it?  They test for nitrogen, not the complete protein molecule.  So, without looking at the chemistry (it's been many years for me!), if you break down a protein by excessive heat, you will still have the Nitrogen atoms...just linked differently.  And that's important - when we mess with chemical bonds, we can eat stuff that makes us sick (eg in the human world, high fructose corn syrups are in contention at the moment, and linked with scarring of the liver similar to what is seen in an alcoholic, plus obesity, heart disease and diabetes).  So, you might have lots of Nitrogen atoms 'reading' high protein, but you don't have any safe edible protein there.  It's not 'condensed into a purer form' it is reconfigured/destroyed.  We are talking temps that are out of the range of our cooking stoves - more like crematoriums.  Which is also why there will be a higher ash content in 'foods' that include meal.

Then of course, you have to look at the quality of the stuff that goes into the vat.  It really isn't that good.  Add in all forms of ontaminants and another reading of 'pure' has to be thrown out too...this meal stuff is not safe.  In fact meal and bone has been banned from human consumption.

Hope your brain is not about to explode!