Can anyone advise these cats' breed?

shelterhelper

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Hello.  I volunteer two days a week at our local no-kill Humane Society in the Cat Rooms.  Sadly, this shelter is going to have to close soon, and we're trying to find homes or other no-kill shelters for our kitties.  We have one brother and sister cat (whose owner died) who might be purebred, but we don't know.

These kitties have a Siamese-shaped head and have green eyes.  Their fur is short and is black with a silver undercoat.  Does anyone know if these nice cats might be a branch of the Siamese family?  If they are purebred, it might be easier for us to place them. I'm inserting a photo below.  Thank you, anyone who would know about this and be able to help.

 

StefanZ

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They are so alike it is prob more than just siblings. Yes, I can imagine they are purebred to be that alike.  I myself dont get ideas for clear identification.  Perhaps Burma, them being so dark the masque isnt clearly visible...

Lets hope others get ideas...
These kitties have a Siamese-shaped head and have green eyes. 
Nay, at least not modern siamese, who do have prolonged faces.  You are possiblly thinking about siamese old type?  Ie siameses from 50 years ago.

Otherwise, green eyes and siames-type heads, I thougt on Orientals, who are essentially not pointed siameses.  But they arent siameses nor orientals no.

You may please send in more good photos of them?!

Welcome to our Forums!

Good luck!
 
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shelterhelper

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Thank you, StefanZ, for your quick response.  I'm afraid I don't have really good photos of them, but I'll post what I have below.  I am going over to the shelter tomorrow and will take more/better photos of them and post them tomorrow evening.

Hopefully, someone else will recognize what breed they are.  Thanks.



 

StefanZ

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If you really hot want to press them into a pure breed, I suppose if somebody wanted to create a black smoke Russian  (blue), so a Russian Black Smoke would perhaps look so.

There are breeders for everything, so for example, there are Russian Tabby... So why not Russian Black Smoke?

But it is a REALLY long shot, with the probability so near null, so the probability calcule is cracking and sparkling, and shadows of dragons and witches almost seems to be flying around...

It would be easier to find a Russian Blue and let it adopt them, thus lawfully making them Russians them too.    :)

Sorry for the joking.  Im feeling so much about these two so my ideas are going on sky high.   :)
Can't think of a breed they'd resemble, but their colour is black smoke.
Ah, black smoke. Tx!  I was wondering if it was some sort of tortoise colour - and which of them.
 

maewkaew

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I have a wild guess. Could they possibly be Smoke Burmillas? ( do those come in Black Smoke as well as Sable Smoke? I think they may be called Asian Smoke in GCCF ( the main UK cat registry). http://www.asiangroupcatsociety.co.uk/page3.html They don't really look exactly right, and it sure wasn't from a breeding program with many American burmese ( which have a much shorter face) Or they may be some similar cross of breeds, not an official breed but something experimental some individual person was breeding. (Or it could even be random and they're just siblings and got the same genes. There ARE smoke moggies. ) I was already thinking they reminded me of European Burmese in shape. but it is impossible for them to be Burmese with the Inhibitor Gene ( that causes smoke) and with an undercoat. (Southeast Asian cats like them and would have very little to no undercoat. they are single coated.) But Burmilla is a breed that came from a cross of Burmese and Chinchilla Persians. The Persians is where they get the undercoat and the smoke . but then I think they were bred back to Burmese so they're mostly Burmese. http://www.gazzellacats.co.uk/page813.htmlIn your last post, where there are 3 photos, the 3rd one looks like a different color. The cat looks brown in that one! actually like a sable smoke or even champagne smoke ( chocolate smoke) . Is there a 3rd cat, or is that just very different lighting on one of these black smoke cats?
 

callista

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I don't think they have a particular breed, but black smoke is a really unique color among DSH cats. Quite rare. I've never seen it in the shelters where I volunteered--ever--and I saw hundreds of cats.

Their good looks may well get them an adoption, especially if they are also friendly and outgoing, or at least the sort of cat who enjoys human contact.

If they do have a breed, I don't think it's one of the "recognized" breeds; it might be a little-known or experimental breed. And of course they don't have papers, so you can't say they are purebred. But mentioning how rare their coloring is might draw some people in enough to meet them and see their charms for themselves.
 

maewkaew

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You know, you could say they have a rare coloring LIKE a Black Smoke Burmilla and that would be honest, and might be enough to attract interest. It sounds like Callista is thinking along the same lines as I am, that they COULD just be like this by chance, or they could be some sort of experimental breeding. ( might not be with Burmese at all! )
The Burmilla would count as a rare breed in the US and I dont think it has full recognition in a US cat registry. but it does in Canada. and as mentioned, I think the breed is better known in Europe and Australia. Their muzzles are more prominent than Burmillas I have seen from North America since they've used American Burmese . As I mentioned, this is more like European Burmese... but there are European Burmese in North America and have been used in Burmilla breeding. .

they are very striking cats... Their former owner's family didn't know anything about where he/she got them? I'm glad they are safe. Sorry to hear your shelter is having to close. You know... you might check with some purebred cat rescue
 
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shelterhelper

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Thank you, everyone, for your input.  Sorry I didn't get back sooner.  I've been busy registering our cats on the Petfinder website.

Maewkaew, in answer to your question, the one picture is not of a third cat.  We have both incandescent and fluroscent lights at our shelter, and they can make the cats look different colors in different locations.

I am certainly learning a lot more about cats at this site than I knew before.  I'm posting a few more pictures I took today in case you'd like to see them.  I will read over your replies more carefully when I have more time. 

Again, thanks for all your suggestions.  We tried looking through books, etc., but could never find a cat who looked like these two.




 

northernglow

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^I thought only shaded pattern was recognized in Burmillas? But then again I'm located in the "rest of the world" and not USA, and our main registry may have different colours. I've only seen shaded Burmillas in shows, never any other patterns.
 

orientalslave

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In the UK a Burmilla is what some people call a shaded Asian.  Asians came from a oops Chincilla x Burmese mating, the original offspring were all shaded, but obviously the F2 cats would start producing all sorts of colours and patterns - shaded, tipped, solid, smoke, self, tabby, anything except with white, or siamese / tonkinese colour restriction.  Several hundred colour & pattern combinations if you add it all up.

"The 5 varieties of the Asian Group are:
  • The Burmilla (Asian Shaded)
  • The Asian Smoke
  • The Asian Tabbies (Ticked, Spotted, Mackerel and Classic)
  • The Asian Self and Tortie (including the Bombay)
  • The Tiffanie (Asian Semi-Longhair)"
The Shaded & Tabbies can be with or without silver, and the Tiffanie in any of the Asian colours....

http://www.asiangroupcatsociety.co.uk/page2.html

http://www.burmilla.co.uk/History.htm
 

StefanZ

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Oriental, all this nice and well, but can you with your broad knowledge about all these breeds and patterns press in our TS´s protegées into any of them?  Preferably one which also is probable for them to be, and not just barely theoretically possible... :)

Also, they are hardly some breeders top examples - as this would be known to the relatives, cat fanciers or not. Sooner they are sold as pets, perhaps from a inbetween generation in a breeding programme.

I think the "smell" of purebreed is quite strong from them.
 

orientalslave

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Do you mean do I know what breed the smoke cats might be descended from?  Not the faintest. 

Silver tabbies occur naturally (after all they came from somewhere!) so smoke cats must also occur naturally.  We don't even know where ShelterHelper is.
 
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shelterhelper

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OrientalSlave, I live in the central United States, in a small town in the Black Hills of South Dakota.  Our state has a low population and no cities larger than 75,000 people.  I very much doubt we would have a large, sophisticated cat breeding facility here.  But who knows?

The history of these kitties is a mystery.  They were turned in to our shelter when their owner died.  As far as I know, no official papers were found for them in the lady's estate.  We have no idea how she came by them - if she was the original owner or if she got them from somewhere else.

Forgive my ignorance, but would any of you know if DNA testing could determine the breed?  My fellow Humane Society volunteer and I would be willing to pay for a test if it would help.

Thanks for the input, everyone. 
 
 

orientalslave

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DNA testing to determine breed doesn't exist in cats. Unless a cat has genuine papers the only honest description is domestic lh or sh.
 

maewkaew

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DNA testing to determine breed doesn't really exist in an accurate way, but University of California at Davis veterinary genetics lab IS offering a test now that might be able to look at regions of origin. then they compare it to breed. It can't be a proof a cat is pedigreed, when the vast majority of cats are not. and they may not be able to tell the difference between a Maine Coon and random-bred longhair cats of North America. but they might at least identify the cat as being from the wide European race of cats. then tell how closely the cats DNA comThere's also tests for some genes related to coat color. The cat coat color DNA panel would include looking for the 'sepia' allele that originally came from Burmese. probably even the Black Smoke Burmillas ( called Black Smoke Asians in the UK) would be likely to carry one copy of the gene, though it is recessive and takes two copies
 
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shelterhelper

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Thank you, everyone, for your input.  I found your responses very interesting and informative.

I wish these kitties could talk "human" and tell us their story.  I will not list them on Petfinder.com as an exotic breed, since I can't prove that with no paperwork.  I'm hoping  their unusual and striking looks will attract attention.  They certainly look like purebred cats.  The male is friendly and the female is extremely outgoing.

I appreciate your help. 

Sue
 
 

maewkaew

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Hope you will find them a great home. You can at least describe them as black smoke , which people might think sounds special like a "breed", as well as showing photos of how cool they look . In fact you could write what you just did -- about how you wish they could talk and tell their history.... you could even put a link to this thread! that might stir up interest in guessing.
 

kada caddy

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They are black smoked Asians. I have one actually. She just turned 5 in march and she looks identical to the two you have. They are a we rare breed and most vets I have taken her to have never heard of the breed before. I was also asked how I managed to et one in Canada... They are VERY lovable and VERY affectionate! If you'd like I can share a picture of my baby girl ad you can see they are exactly the same. White fur underneath right now to the dark black nose. Mine has brown eyebrows though.
 

StefanZ

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Kada Caddy.  A couple of pics are always welcome, for us to have a comparison.   And please tell what you did answered the others who asked,  how did you got this rare breed?
 
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