I've tried everything :'(

My cat WILL NOT stop peeing immediately outside of the litter box.The previous owner said he never did it before we got him (and I know her well enough to know she isn't lying).  We got him when he was about 3 months old. He was a cat she found in a litter, and all of the other cats found homes amongst our friends,and none of the other brothers or sisters have this problem. I don't know when he first started, but it was within the first month of us owning him.  I found a spot by chance on a rug in our bathroom (which was right next to the box), and then on the rug in front of the toilet, and then on the living room rug.  We got rid of all those rugs and then he started doing it only on the plastic rug that catches litter right outside the box.  We tried buying a larger litter box (we have one other cat so we thought it might have been too much cat for one box) and that seemed to help for a while, but then he was back at it. We couldn't house a second litter box because we lived in an apartment that was just too small for that.  We cleaned the box twice per day and it always seemed pretty clean but he did it anyway.  He has been to the vet multiple times and he is fine.  He is fixed (he did this both before AND after we got him fixed).

So then we moved.  We bought a REALLY big house, enough space for 2 boxes (one small, one really big).  We gradually introduced the cats to the house by opening one door at a time to not overwhelm them.  They were fine.  No accidents.  The box gradually moved from the upstairs, to the downstairs, to the basement, no problem.  Then it started again.  Immediately outside the box.  One box had a litter rug, one was bare cement, didn't matter.  We bought rubber rugs for in front of them both, still peed.  We completely separated the boxes (one on each side of the basement), still problems- would pee in front of both of them.  Got rid of the small litter box and bought another HUGE box.  Nope.  Changed litter.  Nope.  Bought Cat Attract. Nope.  Moved the litter boxes back together.  Nope.  Took the lids off.  Nope.  He has also defecated 3 different times outside the box too.  Near it, but not in it.  A few times, since we've been at the new house, he peed about 10 feet away, still in the basement on the cement.  Sometimes we are home when he does it, sometimes we aren't.  He has even done it while we were watching him.  We've caught him in the act twice and it doesn't seem to matter. 

We always show up what he has done wrong, say "bad', tap his nose, and then put him in the box.  He has gotten to the point where as soon as we open the basement door he thinks he is in trouble and hides, or shakes when we pick him up and walk toward the basement.  It breaks my heart, so we've stopped this semi-discipline completely.  Any time he is good all day we spoil him and tell him how good he is.  

He is the kindest, gentlest cat.  He is so loving and so gentle; this is literally the ONLY thing he does wrong.  He is such a laid back, sweet boy so I have a hard time believing that he is marking his territory.  He and our other male cat are very kind and they love each other very much.  They cuddle and play with us and each other all the time.  Our other cat has no problems whatsoever.  When we first got him we forgot to clean the box all the time so it went for days a few times and he never went outside the box.  There were a few times when we first got cat #2 where we would go in the bathroom and they would both be in the litter box together, so it isn't that they don't like each other.  I thought that maybe he was just so sensitive to the smell of the box that he didn't want to go in, but he always goes in to poop (except those 3 times that I mentioned before).  AND we JUST got a brand new box yesterday and he already peed on outside the box by this afternoon, so it isn't that the box is holding in long standing odors.

Please, help.  We love him so much, but it is ruining out relationship with the cat, and my husband and I are even starting to fight about it. And it is so time consuming and tedious to clean the rugs or floor or wherever he peed every single day.

Please don't recommend any of the things I've already tried.  I've ready seemingly every blog on the internet about this issue and it seems like I've done everything.  Please tell me I'm wrong and that there is something else I can try.

Thanks

P.S. The bathroom at our old apartment was right next to the living room.  For a fleeting second I thought it might be because he didn't like being away from people, but he was very near to us and maybe only 3 feet away from our television, so I don't think that is it.

Hi catmoma17.. Welcome to TCS

So sorry you're going through this.  It must be very frustrating. 

I know it sounds obvious, but does he just not like stepping over the edge to get in?  Or perhaps it is the plastic?  Have you tried something like very low, plastic lined wooden box?  And all the different types of litter? 

Here's a whole thread on the subject.. just have a read through and see if anything rings a bell:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/9563/inappropriate-peeing-problems-answered

They mention Feliway there, and a Feliway diffuser is worth a try.

One thing, though, that cats just don't respond to is any kind of discipline.. I guess you've found that out.  Positive reinforcement is the way to go with felines.

Good luck... I do hope your problem is resolved really soon

Hi catmama17, and welcome here!

First of all, do understand that I hear your frustration. I can't say I understand, though...because, obviously, no matter what I've experienced myself, what you have and are going through are different.

And, frankly, I'm going to ignore what you said about 'please don't tell me...'

You need to accept that, perhaps, there are parts of what you've tried that may need to be redone....at least after some refinements.

Let me start by telling you that what I find most interesting is that the behaviour comes and goes...starts and stops - and you don't know WHY.

Perhaps that should be the starting point.

For instance....there is one urinary disease that is known to be caused by stress.......yes, stress felt by the cat.

And, common sense and everyday living tells us that stressful situations come and go in the course of that same daily living.

Now, I'm not claiming to have found the source of the problem....I've only suggested one possibility - which I, myself, would want to further explore if I were in your position.

If you want to stay onboard - if you want to pursue this,  let me know (we will have to re-do some of what you have tried) - if not, say so, and I'm outta here.

I do want to know exactly what you're feeding and the exact feeding schedule.

Also "he's been to the Vet"...that's not enough. WHAT tests were done, when and what were the results?

I say you need to retrain him.
Put him in a small bedroom or bathroom with his own litterbox (new if you can, and basic non-scented clumping litter), and see if he uses the box. If he does, it may be that the other cat does bully him, or at least make him nervous around the box. You may need to get a third box and keep that box somewhere other than the basement. :nod:

Wow, WhiteShadow made an awesome offer to help you - it really does help to have someone outside of the situation (and frustration) view things with fresh eyes.  And yes, so so so frustrating, but open yourself to accepting 'ridiculous' thoughts...cats think soooo differently to us, so even minor things we think are fine, and turn out to be fine most of the time, can be NOT fine.  Then it takes the 'hair that broke the camels back' for the cat to show you 'not fine'. This could be a 'ridiculous' source of stress eg: a dog barking outside (yep, it happened here).  On the positive front, their sensitivities are so welcome when they show love and care - we got the stress pee on our bed again when my husband was ill.  Turned out it was leukemia.  Clever cat!  

The good news is that you know when this started, and it wasn't happening before.  The 'bad' news is that when you find those triggers, its now not the whole story - you will also have to deal with a now learned behaviour; but this can be done.

The 4 things I thought of were:

1.  A very early pee was on a plastic type mat.  Cats are very sensitive to smell, and some plastics say 'go here'.  Also, the toilet mat may have had a bit of pee on it (from a male human) and that could have said 'go here'.  (I'm sure you've covered cleaning product ingredients that also say 'go here'?)

2.  New house was going well - there were 2 boxes.  TICK - keep doing that one.  Then you changed the location.  CROSS - revert to where it was going well.  (I've heard a lot of bad basement litter box stories, so I didn't think this location would be good).

3.  You're on the right track re discipline (bad results)- you need to tweak the positives though.  I make happy noises EVERY time Kato goes in his box.  End of a whole day is too removed from the behaviour.  And if you see him making to go somewhere not right, step in and gently lift him into the box with a 'this is the right place' loving, gentle encouragement.  I have had to do the replacement twice on a couple occasions before Kato settled for a pee, but normally, he sets to it straight away.  With me praising away!

4.  Feliway diffuser.  We know Kato is a stress pee-er.  And we can't control all stresses - eg, if we are sick, or have an argument (yep, there's the rub in a pee situation too; the couple getting stressed translates into cat stress!).  Feliway covers us.  We don't have it on all the time (expense), but when we know there's a period which could be stressful, we stick it on.  Never had a bad pee while it's been on.

Please remember that this whole issue will require a recipe to fix - miss or skimp on just one ingredient, and you won't get the desired results/you haven't found all the ingredients yet.  Eg, we are now replacing our mattress to totally cover the residual smell base (even tho we can't smell anything as have cleaned with enzymes multiple times), and we are getting water-proof covers for the new mattress and pillows!!  It's taken a while for us to bite the bullet and do everything that is necessary.  Environmental modification may give you a few wins too, depending on where he is going/if there is a pattern eg: Kato likes our bed, so we have put his rugs on it.  He won't pee on his rugs, but if they are moved, he will; so there is a morning bed making ritual and removal of pillows into a cupboard.  You may also need to some staggered retraining; curtailing him to one small area with all his needs until he is reliably using the litterbox.  For us, this translated into keeping the bedroom door shut as Kato was only going in the one place.

I feel your pain and frustration - and your little guy's too.  Cats are naturally clean; there's something unhappy causing this response, and it helps to remind yourselfof this so you can stock up on the patience and calm (and cleaning fortitude) 

Best wishes!

sometimes cats pee outside the box if they have a health issue or diet was that ruled out?

my cat brandon used to do that tell i found out he had a  infection in his bladder after one week on antibiotics he stopped

maybe you need 3 litter boxes?

A shot in the dark perhaps, but have you tried a different litter?

I ask because my old Grey girl just couldn't stand the coarseness of her old clay litter anymore. I guess it felt too rough to walk on. I changed to a softer more sand-like litter and it solved that problem.

Have you tried drugs, such as Prozac or Elavil?  Sometimes a combination of drugs works better than just one.

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for all the great advice.  I can definitely see where maybe stress is what is causing the behavioral issues.  The only thing that makes me scratch my head about that is that when he FIRST moved in with us he did not have accidents, and when we FIRST moved into the new house he didn't have accidents.  I think that is weird because those are very stressful situations.  I am sad to have to keep spending tons of money to fix this, but I will try the Feliway stuff because if he is stressed, that seems like a feasible option.  However, I don't know if there is an outlet in my basement (it is unfinished) near the litter boxes.  I only know of one for sure that is in the ceiling near where the water heater is.  I'll have to check that out.  How far does the scent of the Feliway go? 30 feet across a basement?

Minka, I don't think locking him in a room is the best idea.  He is a very social cat- I accidentally locked him in my walk in closet all day when I was at work and he was screaming when my husband got hime.  He was NOT happy!  Incidentally, he didn't have any accidents in there.

We have swapped many kinds of litter to no avail.  I've never tried organic wood or sand stuff, but he didn't have that as a brand new kitten and he didn't have accidents.

Also, keep in mind that he always poops in the box, and only pees outside.  I think the 3 times he has pooped outside the box were isolated events.  So how could he not like the litter to pee, but like it to poop?  Or not mind stepping over the edge to poop but hate it to pee? Is this cat logic?  I know they think different.... but that would be very strange.

I don't really want to move the litter box outside of the basement.  I really don't want moving the box to NOT help, and have him continue peeing outside the box but on my hardwood floor (the entire house is hardwood).  I'll save that option for last, probably.

White Shadow, I feed my cats Blue Buffalo Freedom.  I feed my family healthy organic food, so why wouldn't I feed my cats the same!!  We used to feed them the Blue Buffalo kitten chow, but we noticed that they both always seems to have upset bellies.  They were both fully tested at the vets (fecal, blood, whatever else they do..).  They both tried 2 or 3 different meds to get rid of any possible parasites to no avail.  Eventually I figured out that they have a problem with grains and/or gluten.  Since we switched them to the Freedom kind they've been good  We used to just feed them the recommended amount for kittens once per day.  As they grew, the amount they consumed got greater and greater.  Now that they seem to have stopped growing, they eat less.  For the past 3 or 4 months we have been feeding them between 1/4 and 1/2 a cup twice per day per cat.  They have separate bowls, but they share sometimes.  They never seem to be hungry, and if they do (the cat in question will ALWAYS tell you how he feels- he is very, very vocal! ), we will give them a little more.  I've read on some blogs to give them more wet food, but he doesn't like wet food at ALL!!!  He is a very picky eater- only likes dry cat food.  Unless I leave my groceries on the floor too long.... then he goes straight for my collard greens or fresh spinach.  He is weird, haha  

Ritz, I'm very apprehensive to drug my baby.  Those drugs aren't great for humans, so I can't imagine they're great for cats either :/

MewLittle, I don't think a 3rd box would make any difference, simply because there have been times where the box is completely empty and he still pees outside.  And the boxes I have are MASSIVE!!  I think they have plenty enough space.  If anyone has a really good reason why I'd need a third I'd be open to it, but I think they have plenty of room and we keep up after them constantly.

White Shadow- I'm willing to try anything you throw at me.

I'm sorry, I threw out a lot of info again!!

I have a 16 year old cat that would always pee in her cat box, even when she has been sick, but she would always poop right outside of it. We were so confused for along time on why she did it. When one of our other cats had surgury nd couldnt be in a liter box with clay litter because of the dust ans stitches in her tummy, we used a recycled paper liter in her box and low and behold our problem pooper started pooping in that box everytime! For what ever reason she did not like the same type of litter to pee as to poop in. So now with have ing four cats 2 boxes have scoopable clay litter and 2 have recycled new paper litter and we have never had another problem with her! So maybe you kitty is a ver picky kitty like ours and doesnt like the same litter for pooping as peeing. Not sure if it helps but just a thought!

Obviously no one *wants* to lock their cat up but if he needs to be retrained.. Then he needs to be retrained. There is no other way to do that.
The rule for litterboxes is one per cat + one, so that would put you at 3 boxes.

catmama17 said:

White Shadow- I'm willing to try anything you throw at me.

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OK.

First off, a little homework.

Judging from your writing, I'd say you're probably a reader.

I'd like you to read one section of a larger article by a very reputable Veterinarian. 'Remember I said that there is one urinary issue that is known to be caused by stress? That's what I need you 'up-to-speed' on. AND.....as you read about that, listen to what this Vet is saying about WATER.... OK?

Here you go: (read to about 1/4 down the page, to "Urethral Obstruction") http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth#Cystitis

Also, it's great he's been to the vet, but we need to know *specifically* if he's had his urine tested because that's what is important.

Hi again Catmama17,

Yes, the feliway diffuser does spread through a large room - the box/internet will say how far.  Buy it online to get it cheaper.

I would really, really advocate you to do something as the FIRST thing (not the last) because I think it will bring success...get a litter box in the house.  He needs an option that is not in the basement as that seemed to bring on the problems.  And as second stage, you can try a different litter in that box; but give the old litter, house location a go first.  And yes, I know! You reaaaally don't want to do that.  So often, that's a good clue to the solution as we are resistant to seeing things thru their eyes.  So just bite the bullet and do it.  If after a decent go (I'd give it a few months) it is not being used, then fine, you can take it back to the basement.  (Try putting down some pee pads around the box at first so you aren't stressed about your hardwood floors...as you see he is 'getting it', start to make the pads smaller, and then gradually remove).

Re the confusion about something being stressful, but the FIRST time it happened, he was fine, well, that's cats.  And that's humans too.  You've heard about the 'hair that broke the camel's back'?  In the case of cats, they are pretty polite and don't tell you things are only just barely acceptable...until another just barely acceptable thing (or a stress thing) happens and boy, then we get told 'NOT FINE'! So we have to go through all the situations where things are just barely acceptable and make them good, so things don't build up again. 

Also the site Whiteshadow gave you is awesome.  It also lists quite a few 'okish' canned foods and a lot of transition ideas to help kibble addicts get onto wet food.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I repeat....if there's no outlet in the basement you can always just buy the Feliway spray and mark a few spots with it every day when  you go in the basement to clean the boxes.   It's not as automatic as the diffuser but it'll get the job done.     Many years ago I took in a cat that went on the side of the box from an owner who couldn't care for her.   Her problem was a long-standing urinary infection.   Even if your cat has tested clear it is possible he still has a very subtle infection, you could have a culture done or even do a preventative round of antibiotics just to see.   

The other possibility is just that new training is needed.   You may have to do some of the things you don't want to, please think of the bigger picture - like shut him in a confined spacesmall room  with the box or set up other boxes in different rooms (it really doesn't matter that the two boxes in the same room are big).    Good luck!

I just wanted to address your comment that there's no plug near the litter boxes for the diffuser. It's not supposed to be plugged in near the box(es). Feliway is a scent that mimics the "friendly" markers in cats' cheeks. It's the wrong scent for a place to pee. The diffusers are used like an air freshener that to us just smells a little bit like hot wax, but to a cat, is a calming scent. But best if not plugged in near a litter box, to help prevent any confusion. Cats are very, very scent driven.

When was kitty last tested?  If it has been a few months I'd have another blood panel and urine test ran.  Also make sure blood sugar levels are being tested.  Really does sound like it could be stress related.  I'm sorry I am dealing with this as well but my cat is either diabetic or pre diabetic.

I bet you haven't tried consulting a behaviourist.  They are specialists in cat behaviour, and this sounds like a behavioural problem.  It won't be super cheap, it won't be an overnight fix and how well their advice works depends in part on how well you put it into practise.

If you go this route, do make sure whoever you consult is properly qualified and belongs to an appropriate professional organisation.

Originally posted by catmama17

The box gradually moved from the upstairs, to the downstairs, to the basement

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I would like to ask, what is the situation with the litter box now. Still in the basement?

Please let us know. Very important.

Melly123 said:

When was kitty last tested?  If it has been a few months I'd have another blood panel and urine test ran.  Also make sure blood sugar levels are being tested.  Really does sound like it could be stress related.  I'm sorry I am dealing with this as well but my cat is either diabetic or pre diabetic.

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OH! This reminded me of something else I meant to mention. I know he's been to the vet, but as others have asked, was a urine culture in addition to a urinalysis done? The urinalysis determines the composition of the urine and whether or not there are crystals in there. But was a culture done? Our cat Spooky had an ongoing problem peeing outside the box off and on over this past year, and she had multiple urinalyses and cultures done. But the last one, done a few weeks ago, indicated a "light" staph infection. It took four days via the culture to appear. It's "unlikely" that was causing her problems, but because she's had the issues, she was put on an antibiotic to eliminate it as a possibility.

Also, was an ultrasound ever done? In Spooky's case, her former diet led to the formation of stones in her bladder. We had transitioned to a new diet when she peed outside the box, and there were no crystals present in her urine, and an x-ray showed "slight" bladder wall inflammation, but nothing that would indicate to the vet that she was in any real discomfort. So at that time, it was determined there was no physical reason for her peeing outside the box.

Yet it happened again. So we had an ultrasound done. And it revealed three small stones. Apparently they could have been "rattling around in there for some time," - sometimes causing discomfort, other times not causing any discomfort. Normally they would recommend surgery to remove them. Oxalate crystals cannot be dissolved by diet; struvite crystals can. And because her urine was clear of crystals, there was no way to know what type of stones they were. We had recently started our cats on a raw food diet, which is naturally acidifying. The vet suggested we give it a few months, and see if the diet would by itself dissolve her stones.

A few months into it, she peed outside the box. So we had another ultrasound done. Turns out, the diet worked! It DID dissolve those stones, so they were struvite stones. BUT.... they were dissolved, not completely flushed out. So this time her urinalysis showed struvite crystals in it (as the "residual sludge" was being slowly washed out as she peed). The very presence of the struvite cyrstals raises the urine pH, which then causes her body to produce more struvite crystals. So where there wasn't a problem before, there was now. We had to put her on an acifidier (L-methionine) and give her sub-q fluids at home off and on for a few months, rather intensively. This worked, and completely flushed her out.

The last ultrasound confirmed - no more inflammation, no more sludge, and her urinalysis was clear.

So all of this is to say... if you have not had an ultrasound done, it's something to consider. Even if there are no crystals in the urine, there may be stones in his bladder.

Is he peeing on the bed? On clothes? In places that smell like you? It doesn't sound like it. Peeing in places like this are related to stress peeing - their urine mixes with your smell, and is calming to them.

But peeing on the bathroom rug is fairly common, especially if it had a rubber back. There's something about the smell of that rubber that cats like to pee on. And then he progressed to peeing on the plastic outside the box.

While it's a definite potential the problem is behavioral, unless he's peeing on stuff that smells like you, it may not be actual stress peeing. It could be the location of the boxes, the type of litter (even though he's been fine with that litter before - doesn't mean he's fine with it now), etc. etc. etc.

And without an ultrasound, there's no actual way to know the details of what's going on in his bladder.

Also, though especially in male cats, bladder infections are rare, the most typical cause of bladder infection is E. coli. Sometimes, however, this can "hide" inside the all - so a urine sample will be sterile and yet there is an infection. This can very easily be addressed by using D-mannose:

http://holisticat.com/flutd.html

Note: there is no empirical evidence other than one solitary paper that Vit C acidifies urine; the evidence is more mixed for cranberry. However, cranberry has a poor record of helping cats on my list. There are many reasons to avoid cranberry including the (albeit not huge) amount of benzoic acid it contains.

A better option is a sugar contained in cranberry - D-Mannose. This is available in mild-tasting powder which dissolves easily in water. It can be given alone, or added to food. All one needs is 1/8 -1/4tsp (corresponds with 250-500mg) daily for a few days. Use D-Mannose only if dealing with 2 bacteria - e. coli and Klebsiella. Research support is sparse, so at this point anecdotal support is what we've got to work with.

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Spooky weighs 11 pounds. Our vet had us give her D-Mannose at 1/4 teaspoon once a day for three days, just to eliminate this potential as part of her problem.