Semi Feral Mom and new born kittens. Help!

lainiwakura1

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There's a cat in my neighborhood that I've taken in during her pregnancy and she finally gave birth yesterday to what appear to be four healthy kittens. I've been feeding this cat for years and since she's been living She actually with us she has been pretty obedient, letting us touch her and listening if we tell her to get down off of furniture or other off limit places.

She gave birth on the top platform of a stairwell where we go up and down everyday so I figure she must be kind of comfortable if she chose there especially since I left my actual apartment door open the night before giving her access to part of my living space thats darker and quieter.

Well today we have been trying to figure out how to change the dirty linen. In the end we decided to set up another box nearby in hopes she moves them on her own. While we were cleaning off the platform to put up another box she started hissing and growling at us. Eventually she laid down our continued growling every time anyone walked past her. So its very apparent there's no way she will let us actually touch the kittens if she is so over protective for no reason?

She's let me, my sister and both of our boyfriends... all people she is familiar with actually pretty her while she's in the box with the kittens but we're sure if we even touch them a little bit she will freak out. . Another weird tid bit, she attacked my boyfriends arm last night while he was sitting with her on the bottom of the steps... just seconds before she was rubbing on him and letting him pretty her. He was nowhere near the kittens.

I'm a bit lost on how to handle the next few weeks.
How should I handle changing the linens if she won't move them on her own?

In a few weeks we will have to move the box to a enclosed room to ensure the kittens safety so they can't wonder out and down the steps.... That's another hurdle.

Also when and how can we socialize the kittens if mother cat won't let us handle them?

If anyone has any general advice with dealing with housing angry mother cats and newborns it is all appreciated. She's not super angry but she is angry enough.

Im intimidated by her when she's upset but it seems she's kind of chosen me as her human mom since she followed me around a lot before going into labor and seemed to want me to be with her while she was giving birth. Last night she kept coming down stairs into my apt.... then I'd go back In the hallway and make her go back to the kittens. She'd only go up once she saw me start going up the steps. This was right before she attacked my boyfriend.Thoughts on this behavior are also appreciated!
 

eb24

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Alright so I have to say I saw your post and actually had to walk away for about 30 minutes and brainstorm what I wanted to reply with. You are amazing for looking after her and being so concerned about her wellbeing and the wellbeing of her kittens. She is so lucky to have you!

That said, you are definitely in a delicate situation and I don't know if there is a solution that's going to leave everyone happy. I'm admitting off the bat that I do not have much experience working with ferals (even semi-ferals). But, I do with Queens and kittens so here goes nothing!

I think first and foremost you have to move her. Yes, she's going to hate it and probably try and take your arm off but I don't see that you have a choice. I think her somewhat bi-polar behavior (friendly one minute and attacking the next) is partially caused because it sounds like her nest is very exposed. Den moves are common with Queens in the most comfortable of situations: with hers in a frequently used stairwell she's bound to move them, and probably sooner rather than later. It's a total question mark where she would move them to and there is no guarantee you will find them if she does. Also, the kittens are in great danger of being dropped or having their necks punctured with her dragging them up and down the stairs. 

So, in my opinion she has to be moved indoors ASAP. 

Now for the how, which is obviously easier said than done. What I would do is set up an area for her inside that is dark and quiet with a litterbox and food dishes nearby. Try to block off spaces that may be appealing (like under the bed) and make her nesting box as attractive as possible (quiet location, covered with a blanket, ect). Once that is ready put on some thick gloves and get a carrier. Even if she freaks just start putting the kittens in the carrier- she will follow them in. Once locked in the carrier transport them inside. If you can, go ahead and put the kittens in the new nest. If she's blocking them then just open the carrier door and leave the room for awhile and let her calm down. 

Once she's in the room I would go in periodically and check on her. Talk to her, try and sooth her as much as you can. Normally I always advise that people weigh their kittens everyday so that they know they are gaining. In your case however I don't know that I would. It's normal for Mom's to be defensive of their babies but she sounds like she's taking it to the extreme. If handling the kittens causes her that much stress then I would refrain from handling them. Other than getting weights and looking them over in general the kittens don't need anything from you at this point. Your sole job is to care for Mom so she can care for them. As she settles into her new space and they kittens grow she should gradually become less possessive. Once they start crawling around is when you step in for the socialization process. 

I know. This sounds terrifying but I really think moving her indoors is what is safest for her and for her kittens. Also, she may be less aggressive if there are less people around. So, once she's indoors maybe just have one person go in and see her at a time. She may respond better to some people and not others. As for changing the bedding- it's always good to do this at least once a day but again, given her high stress level you would be fine to do it every other day or so. There really is no great way to do it: glove up and just start taking the babies out. If you can have a rotating nesting box that you can just swap that would probably be ideal. 

She's going to be unhappy with the move but I really think it's in everyone's best interest. In general Queens bond quickly to their kittens so it's unlikely that she will abandon them. Even if she does I think it's worth taking that risk of getting them inside versus having her move them somewhere that you can't find them. 

I truly wish you the best of luck with this situation. Regardless of what you decide to do please keep us posted on how this all plays out!
 

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EB24 gave some excellent advice, several things I would have said had she not.

Yes, having her nesting spot so exposed is a big problem and adding unecessary stress for her.

Definitely move the kittens, she will surely follow. Perhaps when she is up and using the litterbox, for instance.

She's not going to like it but won't actually attack you. What she WILL do however is grab any kitten she can before you do once she sees what you are doing, taking her babies away.

BTW she is alos on guard of protecting her babies if they are exposed to outdoors, as she knows that any unfixed males around are a huge threat, as well as raccoons, dogs, people.

As for the socializing, here is what I do with feral moms who refuse to let me handle the kids, once they hit about 3 1/2-4 weeks they will be coming out on their own, that's when you nab them :)

However I don't think it will be such an issue once she is relocated in a quiet, private and safe place. You'll see.

I have loads of experience in ferals with babies, and am happy to help, as I'm sure EB24 is too!
 
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lainiwakura1

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Thank you both so much for your responses!

Im going to apologize ahead of time for the lengthy post.

To be more detailed, the babies are in a box in a little alcove at the top of the stairwell. (no outside access) We were actually going to build an enclosure of sorts around it to prevent the kittens from getting into any accidents once they manage to get out of the box they are in. We also figured if we didn't end up moving them before...we would move them once they were beginning to move around a bit more in the box...and would be more likely to climb out.

I know the cats will usually give birth in a comfortable place, or at least make moves to move the babies some place that they deem fit which is why I find it strange that she purposely chose that box. She's aware of the foot traffic, and she's made no attempts to move them since she's had them despite us going back and forth. I spent a great deal yesterday sitting by her box. She was hungry but the kittens wouldn't give her a break...which led to me holding a spoon with kitten food in the box for her to eat while she was nursing them. We had a repeat of that today but a my sisters boyfriend did it this time and she seemed just as content as when I did it yesterday. She seems to not mind us sitting near her box, or reaching in to pet her. So far we haven't been met with growls or scratches when we do. She also makes no move the cover the babies when we do so I dont think our presence really bothers her any.

To be a bit more detailed about recent events as well. I just want to give you guys as much information as I can (plus its great to tell the story)! All day the day before she went into labor she was spending time with me in my house. I think she's developed an especial liking to me because she's been following me around more so then the others in the house over the last week...and then the day before she went into labor she was near me most of the day, or hanging out in another comfy area I made her in my kitchen. I left my door open that night allowing her to sleep in my kitchen area or roam the hallway as she wanted. She actually spent the entire night sleeping under my kitchen table until she got closer to labor apparently.

When I woke up I went to check on her and she was hanging out in the other nesting area in the area on the steps. When I went back to my door my sister told me she had followed me down. So I went back to the steps and she ran back up into her box. Am I over thinking it if I say I figured she wanted me to be there for her while she gave birth? I left her alone for about 20 minutes and then when I went into the hallway I heard heavy breathing so I went back up the steps and she was in labor. I sat with her a bit, petter her and spoke with her and then gave her some privacy. We've been checking on her and petting her/feeding her every so often since then.

Now last night, same day she gave birth she kept coming downstairs to my apartment, I guess to get some attention from us? We'd pet her until the kittens started mewing and then Id walk out into the hallway and she didn't seem to want to go back up the steps until I started climbing them. This happened a few times until I gave in and sat by her box at like 7am this morning. She made no more attempts to go down while I was there. She made another appearance at my front door this afternoon, mewing to get my attention.

Im flattered shes taken such a liking to me, and is kind enough to let us all get so close to her and her kittens. I feel like despite her actions she is comfortable to some degree since she leaves the box to come out and socialize with us. Im not a kitty pro but I was speaking with a friend and she said its weird that she left the box at all, especially since it had been less then a day!

Now on to the matter at hand!

Im actually sort of afraid of cats...I love them and snuggle them but don't have the heart to deal with angry cats. Im simply not brave enough for it. Theres enough of us taking care of her for me to avoid having to be the one to move her kittens and deal with her reactions...in fact Ill probably be the one keeping her preoccupied while the others either move the new box (hopefully shes moved them herself) or move the kittens from the old to the new box.

By the advice you guys have given it seems like it really is just best to move the kittens to where ever the new space will be, and best with her not to quite be around for it. Would it be okay if I have her downstairs with me, maybe with my apartment door closed while the others move the kittens inside to a secluded room? Im afraid if she runs out and sees them being moved she will act out, or if she runs upstairs and see the box or kittens missing with the upstairs door closed she may panic...Perhaps it would be better to have it kind of out of sight out of mind and once she lets out of her she can follow the mews to where they are?

Or do we just allow her to run up and see it while its happening?

And another question!

So at 3 1/2, 4 weeks it should be easier for us to nab them to play with them and get them accustom to human interaction. I've read that the mother can also have a negative influence on them since she is not 100% trusting of people. When would it be okay to separate them providing this is actually a problem?  From what I've gathered 12 weeks is how long people prefer to keep the mother with the kittens. After that we can wait a week then take her to get spayed, let her recover in the house then let her back outside with out any worry? She will still be welcome to hang out in our hallway from time to time especially during the colder months but we plan to build her an insulated permanent home in our front yard. :)
 

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In general Queens bond quickly to their kittens so it's unlikely that she will abandon them. Even if she does I think it's worth taking that risk of getting them inside versus having her move them somewhere that you can't find them. 
Yes, I agree, this with cat moms abandoning their kittens because a human touched them is essentially a myth. It may be true for deers and wild rabbits, but not for cats!  Even not feral cats.

Yours isnt really feral, and she knows you.

So, prepare a movable nest. Have the nest  at her nest, and move over her kittens when she can see them. Eventually her too if she allows.  Otherwise, you take the movable nest, and carry it to your flat, with her following...  Place it somewhere where you had already prepared a real nest for her, in some nice corner...  Shut the door to the flat.  Done.

(You can have a Feliway diffuser on, if you wish. Or Feliway spray sprayed.)

Something like that.

She will surely hiss, she may whack you. So have thick clothes and gloves on. Preferably also some glasses on, so you dont need to be physically afraid and feel unsecure because of it.

She may possibly try and grab some kittens and rush away, as Catwomen speculates. So close off the stairs...   Still, there are all chances she will afterwards, when calmed down, come to yours flat to the other kittens.

Welfare of their children is more important for them than "freedom". So is it for human moms, so is it for cat moms.

If she recognizes you and your place is the best practical chance for them - so she will accept the situaton and cooperate. Even a real ferale will do so.

Good luck!
 
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feralvr

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I am agreeing with my comrades!! I would move the family indoors asap. When you mentioned about moving the kittens inside when momma cat is "downstairs" with you that means she is inside of your apartment? Once she comes inside and is downstairs with you, have someone keep the apartment door closed and move the kittens with the "nest" inside that safe room that you will already have prepared with all of the necessities. Keep the door closed after that so mom doesn't run out. She will smell her kittens and seek them out, I would think. Since she follows you, she might even follow you to the safe room where you have the kittens. This mom cat will not hurt you but I know they can be intimidating. She sounds like she trusts you and knows you are only helping with the mothering. I would start handling them at two weeks of age. Each day mom will become more and more relaxed with you near the kittens. Even a truly feral cat will accept human intervention and aide with her kittens. They have that sixth sense that you are not going to hurt but only going to help. Offer mom cat extra special canned foods, even canned foods made for kittens as she needs the extra calories. I do hope that momma cat can be spayed once the kittens are weaned. She sounds like a very friendly abandoned stray and needs a home. Thank you SOOOOO much for taking her and her kittens in. :heart3: :hugs: :vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes:
 
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lainiwakura1

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Momma cat is already indoors not outside shes just not inside the actual apartment all the way. We live in a private house so our hallway is indoors. :)

My sister tried petting the kittens while she was spoon feeding momma cat in the box and she watched closely but didnt react! We are going to try later today to try to encourage her to move them on her own but if she doesn't we will be doing it for her tomorrow.Ive noticed she only has one top fang and one bottom....will this make it difficult for her to move them by herself?

If she doesnt do it and we do it tomorrow or possibly later this evening do you think it would be best to try to move them with her there or should we just play it safe and wait till shes away from them?
 

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Some great advice!

I want to add a couple things too.

If you coax her from her kids and then move them, when she goes back to where they were the last time she saw she is going to have a fast panic, not acting so much just a rush of panic thought, "where are they" type thing, Show her immediately and close the door, leaving her to lick them and do a head count, seeing they are there and fine, she will relax and nurse them.

Give her some time to settle in once this is done before opening the door and interacting with her again.

The spoon feeding her thing is good, it shows her positive things from you, and anytime there is anyone with her they should also pet the babies.

I don't think you're going to have the trouble you are contemplating, she sounds like a once-owned/abandoned kitty.

Next is true for any moms with babies, when interacting, try not to be standing up bending over, try to be more on their level, it's MUCH less intimidating.

It's uncommon for a momma cat to act aggressively with people, they may with a male cat, but that's because a male (unfixed) cat IS a huge threat to the babies. Unfixed male can/will actually kill the male babies, as they are a threat to his territory, and attempt to mount the female babies claiming his ownership so-to-speak for future mating. (which will usually kill the female baby obviously)

If anything she would grab the baby and try to get it away from you, but not attack you.

When she attacked your boyfriends arm, there must have been something that caused this, quick motions, he felt nervous, could be a number of reasons, but it's not common.

Lastly, as time goes by, weeks I mean, you should be able to pick up and hold the babies, no prob. At first time, pet her too at the same time, remind her you are good, if she seems upset give the baby right back. After a few times she won't get so nervous.

The babies should nurse fully for at least 5 weeks, then introduced to food while still nursing, gradually will eat more than nurse, and by 7-8 weeks should be done nursing. (can be anyway!)

Seperate kids from mom otherwise they will continue to nurse for comfort, mom needs to not nurse for at least 10 days before being spayed so she will dry up.
 

eb24

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Thank you for shedding some more detail onto the situation. It does help to have more context!

However, I'm still standing by my original statement: I really think you need to move both her and the kittens. Even though she does not have access to the outside there are still some big risks in waiting to see if she moves them on her own. The biggest of course being if she does move them. I have seen kittens put in great danger by Mom wanting to move the nest. In the process she can become panicky and make mistakes. If she drops one going down those stairs that is potentially fatal. I also thought you mentioned something about her missing two teeth. If that's the case it does add another level of danger. Obviously cat's teeth are sharp- when moving kittens the weight is generally distributed among the 4 main teeth. Basic physics would imply that less teeth= uneven weight distribution= higher likelihood of neck punctures. 

You have gotten some absolutely stellar advice from who I consider to be some of the absolute best posters on this site (Feralvr, Stefan, and Catwoman each have a tremendous amount of experience and are people who's advice I would regularly take without question).  I agree with everything they have said and I hope some of their comments have put you at ease about her potential aggression and the need to bring her indoors. As Catwoman said she needs to be a part of the moving process so that she doesn't go back to an empty nest and panic. 

As for later socialization: don't jump the gun on that just yet. For now, focus on getting her indoors and settled. The fact that she is leaving the nest is a very good sign (though not an uncommon one) and I have a lot of faith that she will settle in to your handling the babies no problem once they get bigger. Yes, kittens can pick up on Mom's tension towards humans but not until they are a little older. Focus on all you have on your plate now and worry about that in a week or two. We are all more than willing to go over all the possible options but I don't think you need anything else clouding your brain! 

Finally, I know you don't have a lot of experience with cats and that you are somewhat fearful of her and her unpredictability. That's totally understandable but try to be calm when you are around her. Cats very much pick up on energy and if she feels you being tense it will put her on alert too. Watch her ears and tail when you are near her- ears flat and tail low and/or bushy means she's tense. Heavily flicking her tail can mean that as well. Ears up and a relaxed tail mean she's calm and receptive. You may like this article as it gives some pictures of feline body language: http://www.catster.com/cat-behavior/cat-body-language . Once you can read what she is communicating to you I think you will be a lot more comfortable around her. 

Keep us posted! 
 
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lainiwakura1

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The move went successfully but I wasn't home for it! My sister and her boyfriend did it while she was using the litter box. They told me my sister picked up the box of kitties while Mittens was in the litterbox. Mittens saw my sister move them but didn't react so she brought them in the house and closed the door so they can switch the nest. After that was all said and done they opened the door for her. She wasn't frantic about it when she realized the box was gone...and was about to lay down on the top platform and my sister coaxed her to the room with the kittens with food to make sure she knew where they were. She ate a bit then got in the box with them for a bit then came back out into the living space to hang out with my sister and her boyfriend.

My sister sat next to her box after the move and stuck her hand in to pet her and she didn't react despite her huffing and puffing, About two hours later I got in and she ran down the stairs to greet me hung out with me there for a while and the went back upstairs. She is still growling and huffing a bit...and I guess she is just being protective of the old spot? When I was out there grabbing the open can of kitty food she growled when she walked past me to the can. She also gave my sister a growl when she was coming back up the steps. Cat ares so funny! She didn't growl while the kittens were there but now that theres nothing she wants to be protective :) She was like this to a worst degree last night Id say, so Im sure it will pass 100% by morning.

I feel its funny, like shes sending mixed signals? She doesn't show any signs of being frantic when they were moved but still got huffy and puffy anyway?

Either way heres a video my sister managed to get of the babies



NOTE!

In response to EB24! Im aware animals pick up discomfort and I do my best when it comes to Mitts. I think she sympathizes with me on this matter lol. She got on the couch next to me like 3 days before going into labor and climbed onto my lap...just with her front two paws and starting kneading my stomach. I was a bit uncomfortable...she didnt climb all the way on or stay on long...and settled with kneading right next to me instead. Not to long after that she climbed on top of my legs to knead on the other side of me :)
 
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eb24

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Good I'm glad the move went well! 

Her huffing and puffing is just normal given everything that is happening in her life: new babies, moving those babies, somewhat new people that she's still earning to trust.... She's just letting you know how she feels in the moment!

Hopefully now she will settle in and calm down. It sounds like you and Mittens have a good understanding of each other and that she understands your hesitancy. Hopefully you two will bond even more through this process!

If she's okay with you handling the kittens then it is a good idea to get weights on them everyday. A kitchen scale that weighs in grams works well and is relatively cheap. Try to do it at the same time everyday to get the most accurate measure. Otherwise just keep Mittens happy and let her do her thing! 
 
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lainiwakura1

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My sister and I are going to try petting them again this weekend, were going to feel it out based on her actions too decide exactly when to go for it. Im going up to feed her again in a few hours but I dont want to pet them since they were just moved. I love that she likes getting spoon fed in the box, its a great opportunity to for all to have individual bonding time with her with the babies around. I personally love the bonding time even if it take a bit of time to do :)

Ill post another update with more information ASAP.

We will try weighing them as soon as we feel shes ready for it. I think if she seems okay with us petting them daily then we will give it a try. I know we should weigh

them daily, but I want to really move slow to ensure were on the same page. If she lets us weigh them I aim to weigh them a few times a week at least. If not, Ill at least try to get a weigh in once a week, or every other week...or if the kittens don't seem to be growing quick enough we will consider it an emergency and begin monitoring them more closely even if Momma isn't on board.

Thank you so much everyone for your support.

The information and OKs we got from everyone was enough to make us all more comfortable with this obstacle, and future ones as well.
 

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I have a feeling that weighing them isn't going to be of much use - it's most useful in the early days, when done every day as even a couple of days or not gaining, or losing, is a big warning sign.  I suspect that by the time she will happily let you weigh them they will be 3 weeks or so, which is the point at which I personally stop weighing them as they no longer fit my scales.

However if she will let you weigh them now, try again tomorrow, and keep going.  Do it very quickly in front of her, or when she's away at the litter tray.  Fingers crossed they are easy to tell apart!
 
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lainiwakura1

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Hey Everyone!

I held 3/4 of the kittens today!

Mittens lets us take them out of the box without much worry, we didn't get a chance to weigh them today as this was our first time testing the water with taking them out of the box. Were hoping to weigh them if not tomorrow on Tuesday which would be the one week mark for them!

I didn't get pictures of all of the ones I held, just this adorable baby who nestled his head between my hands and fell asleep.

 

eb24

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Yay! This is such progress!

I totally agree with what OS said but if you can weigh them then by all means it can only be a benefit. 

I'm so glad that the transition is going so well! 
 
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