Losing Faith in Grain Free...

Are their any studies or any evidence at all that proves to us that

Peas and Potatoes are any better (or less harmful) to our Kitties

than Whole Grain Brown Rice and Barley for example?  

In general, I try to feed low carb, and mostly wet food rather than dry,

but when faced with the decision to feed Whole Grains vs Starches, I am really torn.

My Kitties never had any issues until they started eating Innova Prime which has a LOT of peas.

I have also read that Potatoes are not good for cats. Any definitive answers on that issue?

Additionally, it used to be "The Rule" that too much protein is tough on cats' kidneys,

particularly for older cats - has that been proven to be false?

Finally, I have read on Vet Tech forums and other sites that

Vets are seeing just as many Urinary Tract and Kidney issues in cats that are fed Grain Free foods,

although I don't recall reading anything about if the GF foods were wet or dry or both.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on these issues.

Thanks!   

I'm curious too. Why would potato be preferable to a grain? They are both carbs that cats don't need.

I personally don't think grain-free dry foods are any better than grain-inclusive dry foods. I actually prefer grains like oats and barley to potatoes. . .nightshades are inflammatory. I don't know about legumes vs grains, but I'm not a fan of the plant protein provided by peas. Grain-free wet foods are good, if they're all meat and don't replace the grains with other carbs.

SevenWonders said:

Are their any studies or any evidence at all that proves to us that
Peas and Potatoes are any better (or less harmful) to our Kitties
than Whole Grain Brown Rice and Barley for example? :dk:

In general, I try to feed low carb, and mostly wet food rather than dry, but when faced with the decision to feed Whole Grains vs Starches, I am really torn.
My Kitties never had any issues until they started eating Innova Prime which has a LOT of peas.

Click to expand...

This study didn't include potatoes, but indicates that peas are one of the least digestible sources of starch for a cat: http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/86/9/2237.full

SevenWonders said:

I have also read that Potatoes are not good for cats. Any definitive answers on that issue?

Additionally, it used to be "The Rule" that too much protein is tough on cats' kidneys,
particularly for older cats - has that been proven to be false?

Finally, I have read on Vet Tech forums and other sites that
Vets are seeing just as many Urinary Tract and Kidney issues in cats that are fed Grain Free foods,
although I don't recall reading anything about if the GF foods were wet or dry or both.

Click to expand...

Starches aren't good for cats - that's what's tough on their kidneys, not protein.

Here is an analysis of the natural diet of cats: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434

They eat a diet that on a DM basis is 62.7% protein, 22.8% fat, 11.8% ash (minerals, e.g. bone) and 2.8% carbs, essentially none of which is starch.

Here is why cats need a high protein diet: http://endocrinevet.blogspot.no/sea...0-05:00&max-results=20&start=14&by-date=false

This is a referenced post, written by the small animal endocrinologist that first diagnosed hyperthyroidism in a cat, and pioneered the use of radioactive iodine treatment in treatment of the disease in cats.

There are three low carb grain-free kibbles. Wysong Epigen 90, Nature's Variety Instinct, and EVO. Anything else has more than 10% carbs.

I also calculated the amount of water a cat would need to drink for every 1.5 ounces of kibbles eaten in another thread. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/253410/high-quality-gf-dry-vs-low-quality-canned-diets#post_3295401

Auntie Crazy looked up the amount of water needed in the Nutrition Research Council book (on which AAFCO bases all its recommendations) and found

According to the National Research Council's "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats", any diet containing less than 62% water will result in a dehydrated state (Chap 2, pg 23, first para.). ;-}

AC

Click to expand...

So if you translate that into the amount of water an individual cat needs to drink on an all dry diet, that works out to....

If each cat eats 1.5 ounces of dry food a day, that is the (rough) equivalent of 6 ounces of canned food a day (at a 75% moisture content). So to achieve a 62% moisture content, each cat would need to drink 3.7 ounces of water daily (minimum needed to not be dehydrated).

Click to expand...

That's chronically dehydrated - not the "pinch test" kind of dehydrated (well, depending upon how much water is in their diet).



And the issue with struvite crystals isn't grains or no grains - its carbs. Carbs raise the urine pH, which is the environment in which struvite crystals are formed. If a grain-free food that is still relatively high in carbs doesn't have a urine acidifier in it (ammonium chloride or methionine.... those are the most common), then struvites can be a problem. And Purina, as early as 1998, found a potential relationship between the long term use of urine acidifiers (to offset the high pH caused by carbs) and chronic renal failure in cats. http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1998_vol3.pdf

Although species-related differences in renal acid excretion may contribute to this apparent difference, it is likely that the high incidence of uremic acidosis in cats relates, at least in part, to the acidifying nature of many cat foods. It has been speculated that routine use of acidifying diets may contribute to the relatively high incidence of CRF observed in cats over the past decade. Further, uremic acidosis may contribute to the chronic wasting typical of CRF.... ... of cats with chronic renal failure, approximately 80% had metabolic acidosis.

Click to expand...

...which is why it's best to skip the kibble altogether.

Thanks for the replies! A LOT of good info there!  

2 of my kitties seem to have developed a food allergy,

considering that, and the fact that neither are good for them,

I have decided to first try eliminating all peas and potatoes from their diets,

as those are the 2 ingredients that have increased the most during their time on GF foods.

(No small task - looked at ingredients of so many foods at PFD - seems that the vast majority have one or both.)

I read a lot of the articles from Dr Mark Peterson in addition to the one linked.

I have decided to resume supplementing the Kitties' food with some additional protein *

(in the form of chicken, turkey or egg)

during meals that do not include EVO or other high protein canned food.

* For those who do not wish to invest the time to sort through his research,

Dr Peterson concludes that Senior cats need even MORE protein than healthy adult cats.

LDG said:

Starches aren't good for cats - that's what's tough on their kidneys, not protein.

Click to expand...

I have a question:
If I understood right, kibbles with protein level around 48%-50% and low carb must be "easier" on cats than ones with 34%-36% protein. So, why do so many cats have digestive problems (soft stool, diarrhea) when fed dry food with high % of protein in it?
Many cat owners get scared and switch their cats back to the kibble with lower protein after seeing that their cats can’t tolerate "bad" high protein. I was one of them (back then I didn’t know much and was feeding kibbles along with wet), and I started to mix 2 kinds of kibbles together to lower protein after my cat had continues soft stools and was walking with a dirty bum for weeks.

So, I am guessing, is it the dry concentrated form of protein that matters? ( Well, we all know now, that cats are doing just fine on wet and raw high protein diets!)

I think it's the plant protein in the high-protein dry foods. I haven't heard of the same problems with, say, Ziwipeak or any other dry food with all animal protein.

Willowy said:

I think it's the plant protein in the high-protein dry foods. I haven't heard of the same problems with, say, Ziwipeak or any other dry food with all animal protein.

Click to expand...

Whether protein is plant-based or animal based is very important. :nod:

Unless they're feeding EVO, Nature's Variety Instinct, Epigen 90, or Ziwipeak's air dried raw, that kibble either has protein coming from plant sources or despite a relatively high protein level that is all or mostly animal-based, the food is relatively high in carbs or fiber from something (which wouldn't be an animal). Those are the only dry foods that have carbs under 10% on a dry matter basis.

And even some forms of fiber can really mess up a cat's digestive system. Someone feeding raw with a recipe that included psyllium husk found that even with lower-than-recommended calcium levels (which would normally result in a soft stool) one of their cats become constipated.

LDG said:

Whether protein is plant-based or animal based is very important.

Unless they're feeding EVO, Nature's Variety Instinct, Epigen 90, or Ziwipeak's air dried raw, that kibble either has protein coming from plant sources or despite a relatively high protein level that is all or mostly animal-based, the food is relatively high in carbs or fiber from something (which wouldn't be an animal). Those are the only dry foods that have carbs under 10% on a dry matter basis.

And even some forms of fiber can really mess up a cat's digestive system. Someone feeding raw with a recipe that included psyllium husk found that even with lower-than-recommended calcium levels (which would normally result in a soft stool) one of their cats become constipated.

Click to expand...

Just curious... (I'm not crazy about the lack of Chicken "MEAT", or the inclusion of Clay and Salmon Meal so high on the list,

but with the ingredients in bold below, how can Instinct have less than 10% carbs?

I thought Tapioca in particular is a Starch, and is "mainly" carbs?

Instinct GF Chicken ingredients:

Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat, Tapioca, Pumpkinseeds, Salmon Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken Liver, Kelp, DL-Methionine, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate , Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Apples, Chicken Eggs, Cottage Cheese, Cranberries, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Carrots, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseeds

Guess I'm out of luck with their Dry snacks...

Since I am eliminating peas as a trial,

I will stop feeding EVO dry.

Don't like the Instinct ingredients much,

I can't afford Ziwipeak, or Epigen 90,

and won't consider regular Epigen due to the CORN meal. 

Since I only feed a little Dry anyway,

(around 20 kibbles each per day)

what do you think about these three?

 Evolve: (Might have to reconsider, as the canola oil is likely made from genetically modified rapeseed... then again, I think GM rice is coming soon!) 

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Natural Flavors, Ground Barley, Fish Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Taurine, Canola Oil, Calcium Sulfate, Salt, Dl-methionine, Dried Skim Milk, Dried Kelp, Dried Cheese Product, Yucca Schidegera, Cranberries, Blueberries, Tomato, Carrots, Celery, Beets, Parsley, Lettuce, Spinach, Lactobaccillus Casei, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum, Enterococcus Facecium, Vitamins: Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Minerals: Zinc Polysaccharide Complex, Iron Polysaccharide Complex , Manganese Polysaccharide Complex and Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite

Analysis:

Crude Protein (minimum)35.00%
Crude Fat (minimum)18.00%
Moisture (maximum)11.00%
Ash (maximum)6.50%
Crude Fiber (maximum)4.00%
Taurine (minimum)0.18%
Magnesium (maximum)0.09%

 

California Natural Chicken & Brown Rice:

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Sunflower Oil, Flaxseed, Vitamins, Potassium Chloride, Minerals, Taurine, DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract

Analysis:

Moisture 10.00%
Protein 36.00%
Fat 16.00%
Fiber 3.50%

Wellness Complete Health Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal and Rice :

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Rice, Ground Barley, Ground Rice, Chicken Fat(preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Natural Chicken Flavor, Salmon Meal, Chicken Liver, Cranberries, Tomato Pomace, Olive Oil, Chicory Root Extract, Cranberry Extract Powder, Cranberry Fiber, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Thiamine Mononitrate, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine, Hydrochloride, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Taurine, Rosemary Extract.

Analysis:

Crude Protein, minimum33.00%
Crude Fiber, maximum5.00%
Ash, maximum6.00%
Taurine, minimum0.18%
Crude Fat, minimum19.00%
Moisture, maximum10.00%
Magnesium, maximum0.10%
Linoleic Acid, minimum3.50%

You need to convert the analysis to a dry matter basis. Here's a link to one: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DMB-Calculator.xlsx

This is the only way to analyze the macronutrient content on an apples-apples basis: remove the water. (More important when analyzing wet food, or comparing wet and dry food, really, because kibble is low moisture content).

And yeah, the guaranteed analysis won't necessarily be accurate, because it's based on "minimums" and "maximums." And some companies don't report the ash number. When they don't, I just assume that ash in kibble is 7 or 8% (which is typical), and in wet food it's 2% (it's usually between 1.5% and 3%).

So on a DMB basis:

Evolve

Protein 39.3%
Fat 20.2%
Fiber 4.5%
Ash 7.3%
Carbs 28.7%

and California Natural:

Protein 40.0%
Fat 17.8%
Fiber 3.9%
Ash (assuming it's 7.0% as fed) 7.8%
Carbs 30.6%


Though kibble is typically 10% moisture, so just add all the macronutrients up, and the difference between that and 100% is carbs, and it won't be too far off.


As to how NV kibble has such a low carb content, obviously the tapioca and everything below it on the ingredient list is a relatively small amount. :dk: But yeah, I don't like all the extra "stuff" they put in everything, including their frozen raw food.

Thanks again Laurie!

You have been very helpful, as always  

We are trying the Evolve now, and the California Natural should arrive from PFD tomorrow. 

Hope it agrees with them better than the EVO!

Thanks - I hate to stop using EVO Dry (the Ferals are loving it though!) 

Since this is just a trial, if they recover from their allergies after some time with no peas,

I "might" try giving them some EVO Dry again at some point.

I am hoping it was just the very large amount of peas in Innova Prime that bothered them.

They are still enjoying EVO 95% wet food.

Everyone except my most picky boy likes the Beef.

Jerry did enjoy the Duck and even the Venison, much to my amazement!  

But, I give them the Chicken & Turkey most often.

UPDATE: It has only been 2 weeks since I eliminated all peas and potatoes from their diet,

but we are seeing some good signs.

The 3 who had the allergies have almost completely stopped scratching and "mowing" (grooming excessively),

their little "scabs" are healing,  their fur is growing back,  

and the fur on all 6 Kitties has actually gotten softer and shinier as well.  

To summarize, I eliminated EVO Dry and Blue Buffalo Wilderness Duck Dry

(both great foods as Grain Free dry foods go (IMO)... the Blue went to the Fosters and the EVO went to the Ferals.)

I replaced them with Evolve and California Natural Chicken & Brown Rice,

although they and I like the CN better, so the Evolve might go back to the Ferals.

As far as wet goes, I eliminated Innova Cat & Kitten and Evolve - the Fosters and Ferals

are enjoying these in addition to their usual Grreat Choice / Friskies Poultry Platter cans.

I replaced these with California Natural Chicken & Brown Rice cans,

as well as Natural Balance Ultra Formula, NB Turkey & Giblets and  NB Chicken & Liver Pate.

They are still enjoying EVO cans (all varieties)

as well as occasional cans of  Wellness Chicken, or Before Grain Quail,

and (once a week) BFF Tuna Pumpkin Valentine or NB Ocean Fish.

Just ordered a case of California Natural Venison & Brown Rice cans for them to try,

but those also contain some Whitefish and Herring, so I'll feed them only occasionally.

So far, so good - let's hope that they continue to improve!   

Those pesky peas and potatoes... You know, it is easier to find food without objectionable ingredients if you feed commercial raw instead of canned.

Seriously, I'm really glad they're doing better with the whole foods, rather than the non-grain starches. :rub:

SevenWonders said:

Are their any studies or any evidence at all that proves to us that
Peas and Potatoes are any better (or less harmful) to our Kitties
than Whole Grain Brown Rice and Barley for example?   :dk:

In general, I try to feed low carb, and mostly wet food rather than dry,
but when faced with the decision to feed Whole Grains vs Starches, I am really torn.
My Kitties never had any issues until they started eating Innova Prime which has a LOT of peas.

I have also read that Potatoes are not good for cats. Any definitive answers on that issue?

Additionally, it used to be "The Rule" that too much protein is tough on cats' kidneys,
particularly for older cats - has that been proven to be false?

Finally, I have read on Vet Tech forums and other sites that
Vets are seeing just as many Urinary Tract and Kidney issues in cats that are fed Grain Free foods,
although I don't recall reading anything about if the GF foods were wet or dry or both.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on these issues.

Thanks!    :high5:

Click to expand...

I appreciate your posting this thread. Nutro is coming out with grain free sometime next month. I've been feeding some of the grain free wet products out there to my cats in addition to their daily dose of Nutro Max and Nutro Natural Choice.

I've read nothing but praises of grain free on most of the online forums I belong to for both dogs and cats. Ordinarily I would be all excited about grain free but I have heard very few testimonials that it makes a huge difference. Yes, I've seen the results in dogs with severe allergies and the grain free is remarkable helping those animals with the itching etc.

I'm interested in reading all the opinions and responses.

Willowy said:

I personally don't think grain-free dry foods are any better than grain-inclusive dry foods. I actually prefer grains like oats and barley to potatoes. . .nightshades are inflammatory. I don't know about legumes vs grains, but I'm not a fan of the plant protein provided by peas. Grain-free wet foods are good, if they're all meat and don't replace the grains with other carbs.

Click to expand...

Whole grains are better than some of the others from what I've been able to determine. I've only fed gf wet foods to my cats so far. My dogs are getting Nutro Ultra which is a discussion for a dog forum but I've considered the gf for them. All my furkids are doing very well on their current diets and I'm a big believer that if it isn't broke, don't fix it state of mind. That is just me though.

SevenWonders said:

Thanks for the replies! A LOT of good info there!   :nod:

2 of my kitties seem to have developed a food allergy,
considering that, and the fact that neither are good for them,
I have decided to first try eliminating all peas and potatoes from their diets,
as those are the 2 ingredients that have increased the most during their time on GF foods.
(No small task - looked at ingredients of so many foods at PFD - seems that the vast majority have one or both.)

I read a lot of the articles from Dr Mark Peterson in addition to the one linked.
I have decided to resume supplementing the Kitties' food with some additional protein *
(in the form of chicken, turkey or egg)
during meals that do not include EVO or other high protein canned food.

* For those who do not wish to invest the time to sort through his research,
Dr Peterson concludes that Senior cats need even MORE protein than healthy adult cats.

Click to expand...

Seven, have you talked to your personal vet about the possible allergies your cats have developed? I'd be interested in hearing what hisher thoughts are.

SevenWonders said:

UPDATE: It has only been 2 weeks since I eliminated all peas and potatoes from their diet,
but we are seeing some good signs.

The 3 who had the allergies have almost completely stopped scratching and "mowing" (grooming excessively),
their little "scabs" are healing,  their fur is growing back,   :nod:
and the fur on all 6 Kitties has actually gotten softer and shinier as well.   :rub:

To summarize, I eliminated EVO Dry and Blue Buffalo Wilderness Duck Dry
(both great foods as Grain Free dry foods go (IMO)... the Blue went to the Fosters and the EVO went to the Ferals.)
I replaced them with Evolve and California Natural Chicken & Brown Rice,
although they and I like the CN better, so the Evolve might go back to the Ferals.



So far, so good - let's hope that they continue to improve!    :high5:

Click to expand...

I am so glad to hear you are seeing the results you want! YAY!

NutroMike said:

Seven, have you talked to your personal vet about the possible allergies your cats have developed? I'd be interested in hearing what hisher thoughts are.

Click to expand...

Sorry I missed your replies Mike - I've been stuck on the couch with a hurt back for a few days. (Getting better now  )

Only 3 of my Kitties were showing signs of an allergy,

but with 6 resident kitties, 5 Ferals and currently 2 Fosters,

and an income that has been dramatically reduced over the past year or so,

I thought I'd do some trials on my own first, as I'd imagine the testing can't be cheap.

We are closing in on 3 weeks without peas & potatoes,

and they are all still improving, so hopefully a Vet visit won't be necessary.  

I'm just very relieved that it doesn't appear to be a poultry allergy -

that would be such a pain!