High Quality GF dry vs. low quality canned diets

kittymom88 · Jan 11, 2013

My husband and I struggle with this quite often, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. We've got 8 indoor cats, so trying to balance providing a high quality diet with a reasonable price

Currently, we alternate between TOTW and Chicken Soup dry foods with a pet fountain. We do also try to monitor water intake as best as we can. Ideally we'd feed a grain free canned diet exclusively (I have a severe aversion to raw meat- I throw up when I see it, or raw would be our choice) but if we did a wet exclusive diet, we'd be talking $400-$450/month in food!

If we chose a cheaper (read Friskies) canned food, we'd be down to $170 a month, but we'd be sacrificing serious quality. We also have several cats who have exhibited symptoms of grain allergies (we have two dogs with serious grain allergies, so I know what to look for)

Currently, we pay between $60 and $80 a month for the TOTW/Chicken Soup and occasionally another high-quality GF formula.

Does anyone feed a successful mixed diet? What would a good ratio of wet calories to dry calories look like? I'd love to get the additional benefit of fluids from the canned food, but keep the benefits of remaining strictly GF.

Advice?

cat person · Jan 11, 2013

KittyMom88 said:
My husband and I struggle with this quite often, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. We've got 8 indoor cats, so trying to balance providing a high quality diet with a reasonable price

I have four cats. Two indoor/outdoor, one completely indoor (by her own choosing) and one really sweet but really dumb, like, would run away type of dumb F3 Savannah.

Currently, we alternate between TOTW and Chicken Soup dry foods with a pet fountain. We do also try to monitor water intake as best as we can. Ideally we'd feed a grain free canned diet exclusively (I have a severe aversion to raw meat- I throw up when I see it, or raw would be our choice) but if we did a wet exclusive diet, we'd be talking $400-$450/month in food!

Wow, that is a CRAZY amount of money

. I do not blame you, for, not wanting to spend that much money on canned food! I sure would NEVER spend it

.

If we chose a cheaper (read Friskies) canned food, we'd be down to $170 a month, but we'd be sacrificing serious quality. We also have several cats who have exhibited symptoms of grain allergies (we have two dogs with serious grain allergies, so I know what to look for)

Currently, we pay between $60 and $80 a month for the TOTW/Chicken Soup and occasionally another high-quality GF formula.

Does anyone feed a successful mixed diet?

I used to feed, the following cans: Wellness Core (non-fish), Wellness (non-fish), Evo, and Instinct. Plus, I always feed Evo dry food. The Chicken and Turkey formula only. The above diet, was, the only thing, ALL, the cats could tolerate. By tollerate, I mean, the Savannah would eat ANYTHING. But, almost everything, with any sort of grain, gave him HORRIBLE GI upset. So, the above diet was instituted for a year or so.

Frankly, the above diet got way too expensive for my liking. So, three of the four cats, where good hunters (the two indoor/outdoor DSH's and the F3 Savannah) and the fourth ( a completely indoor DLH) learned to hunt very well from the Savannah. Now, I feed whole live prey, that I breed, twice a day. Plus, due to my hectic schedule, I leave out Evo dry food at all times. This system works great for me and my cats

.

In all fairness, I do not have any sort of meat aversion. Plus, I can breed all my own: mice, rats, rabbits, quail and 7 day old chickens. So, this new diet is very healthy and very inexpensive.

Hope, that was somewhat helpful. If you need any clarification, please ask

.

mrsgreenjeens · Jan 11, 2013

I just looked up Chicken Soup, and the adult feline formula contains brown rice, so I don't think that's considered grain free. But certainly TOTW is

.

I know lots of people feed a combination of kibble and canned, and not sure that there is a difference in a wet calorie and a dry calorie

. The more wet you can feed them, the better, IMHO, just because of the moisture factor. Even with your fountain, are they drinking much? I'm sure it's practically impossible to monitor...even when you can catch them drinking, who knows just how much they imbibe

?

Oh! just a thought...have you heard of I Love My Cat canned cat food? It's sold at Costco and last I heard it was under $1 per can (sold in a case, naturally) It's grain free and supposedly VERY tasty! Hee's a thread about it...be sure to read it all the way to the end, because there are some conflicting things in the middle

but the get straightened out by the end.

kittymom88 · Jan 11, 2013

mrsgreenjeens said:
I just looked up Chicken Soup, and the adult feline formula contains brown rice, so I don't think that's considered grain free. But certainly TOTW is

.

I know lots of people feed a combination of kibble and canned, and not sure that there is a difference in a wet calorie and a dry calorie

.

They get the Chicken Soup on the weeks that we can't make it to the store that has TOTW near us due to work schedules.

As for the calories- I was asking more in regards to the ratio. I agree that a calorie is a calorie, but you're comparing apples and oranges if you say they're getting x/X cup of kibble and x oz of canned. Even comparing ounce to ounce is a bit misleading as the canned food is more calorie dense.

As for are the cats drinking enough? We keep a daily chart of how much water we have to add to the fountain, as well as a chart of how often we see each cat drinking.

ldg · Jan 11, 2013

I'm not clear on the wet food being more calorie dense.... :dk: Just like with kibble, it can REALLY vary between brands. In figuring calories for cat food, protein and carbs have the same amount of calories (3.5 kcal per g), and fat has more than twice as many (8.5 kcal per g) - so any food high in fat will have more calories.

And Auntie Crazy looked up the amount of water needed in the Nutrition Research Council book (on which AAFCO bases all its recommendations) and found

Auntie Crazy said:
According to the National Research Council's "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats", any diet containing less than 62% water will result in a dehydrated state (Chap 2, pg 23, first para.). ;-}

AC

So if you translate that into the amount of water an individual cat needs to drink on an all dry diet, that works out to....

If each cat eats 1.5 ounces of dry food a day, that is the (rough) equivalent of 6 ounces of canned food a day (at a 75% moisture content). So to achieve a 62% moisture content, each cat would need to drink 3.7 ounces of water daily (minimum needed to not be dehydrated). Just so you have a guideline/comparison. (Although I have no idea how much dry your cats consume, and I don't remember how much mine did. I just know how much they ate wet. They eat even less on raw).

As to the food....

NutroMike will be along at some point, I'm sure, to provide the information that Waltham recommends a diet that is 80% canned food, 20% kibble (which they probably came up with given the necessary water content to be not dehydrated). (Sorry Mike, but the OP was asking!

).

KittyMom88 said:
Currently, we alternate between TOTW and Chicken Soup dry foods with a pet fountain. We do also try to monitor water intake as best as we can. Ideally we'd feed a grain free canned diet exclusively (I have a severe aversion to raw meat- I throw up when I see it, or raw would be our choice) but if we did a wet exclusive diet, we'd be talking $400-$450/month in food! :smshfrk:

If we chose a cheaper (read Friskies) canned food, we'd be down to $170 a month, but we'd be sacrificing serious quality. We also have several cats who have exhibited symptoms of grain allergies (we have two dogs with serious grain allergies, so I know what to look for)

We also have 8 cats.

They range in age from 5 or 6 (he was "3 or 4" when rescued. :lol3: ) to 10 years old. My cats ate about 1 can of wet food a day (the smaller ones ate less, but I feed the ferals canned and our cats' leftovers) after we pulled the kibble. How much are yours eating? The Friskies pates (5.5 oz cans) usually cost about $0.50 - $0.55 or so (if you can stock up when they're on sale). I know they're available in the larger cans, so less expensive then, though I understand the flavor choices available are limited. But I'm wondering how you came up with the $170 to feed Friskies pates - should be more like $120.

Some people feel quite strongly that even low quality canned food is better than any dry food. If you'd like to understand why, this is a good site for information (written by a vet). http://www.catinfo.org

The bottom line is that long term, a chronic state of dehydration stresses their organs. Now - I realize TOTW dry doesn't have grains, but no-grain doesn't necessarily mean low-carb.

So... do you have a budget in mind for cat food? Because even feeding 2 meals of wet food a day, especially if you add water to that, would really bump up their water intake. And there's no need to pick one brand. IMO, it's healthier to provide a rotation (different ingredients/sources) anyway (and also helps in the event of potential recalls, formula changes, etc.).

And you could also consider making those small meals, to fit your budget. If you split 2 of the 5.5 oz cans between them at 2 meals a day, you can probably provide a mix of higher quality foods, or at least incorporate some. :dk:

For instance, if you continued to provide some kibble (consider providing measured portions rather than just filling bowls) and the two meals of wet food a day (that should cover at least 50% of their nutritional/calorie need), you could consider including some canned foods like By Nature 95% (high protein, low carb, no grain, species-appropriate ingredients), Nature's Variety Instinct (these have peas and carrots, but you can just pick them out), Before Grain, Evo....

FYI, the TOTW dry is grain-free, but is very heavy on the fish ingredients. You might want to consider a different kibble that may cost a bit more, but isn't so heavy on the fish. When we fed kibble, we made a mix of several different brands.

I'm sorry raw meat grosses you out so much. :hugs:

FYI, I've suggested TCS start a vegan raw feeders support group - there are five or six now (and a number of vegetarians) feeding their cats raw. Sounds like you've got an insurmountable hurdle.

There are freeze dried foods you just add water to, and they don't look (or smell) raw at all - but they're even more expensive to feed. I suspect the commercial raw patties by a number of companies wouldn't gross you out - but again, if you stuck to the lower cost stuff (Nature's Variety, Bravo balanced blends), it would cost on the order of $400 a month or so for your 8 kitties. Of course, if the patties didn't gross you out, you could incorporate a couple of meals a week.

I feed homemade raw myself (although I started with commercial raw). But as you can see, I'm a big proponent of variety and rotation if you're going to use commercial. I see no reason to limit yourself to one brand, one type, and if there MUST be kibble in the diet, then I take the approach that ANY wet food you can add, as much as you can add, is better than none. The Friskies pate (non-fish flavors) is a good choice (though it does have rice), IMO.

ldg · Jan 11, 2013

Oh - I forgot to finish my point about the grain-free not being low carb. :anon: You'll find some type of urine acidifier in most dry foods (and many wet foods high in carbs). For instance, in the TOTW (I looked at the Rocky Mountain formula and the Canyon River formula), both have DL-methionine.

Purina, as early as 1998, found a potential relationship between the long term use of urine acidifiers (to offset the high pH caused by carbs) and chronic renal failure in cats. http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1998_vol3.pdf

Although species-related differences in renal acid excretion may contribute to this apparent difference, it is likely that the high incidence of uremic acidosis in cats relates, at least in part, to the acidifying nature of many cat foods. It has been speculated that routine use of acidifying diets may contribute to the relatively high incidence of CRF observed in cats over the past decade. Further, uremic acidosis may contribute to the chronic wasting typical of CRF.... ... of cats with chronic renal failure, approximately 80% had metabolic acidosis.

Just another reason to look for low-carb foods.Unfortunately, there just really aren't many low-carb dry foods. The only dry foods with less than 10% carbs are EVO, Nature's Variety Instinct, and Wysong Epigen 90.

I put together an analysis of the cost to feed (it includes 48 brands of kibble, 40 canned foods, and 15 brands of raw). I list the carb content (on a dry matter basis, based on the guaranteed analysis). I didn't look at ingredients, but each one is linked to the website: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Combined-Products-Cost-Comparison-1.pdf

Also, Dr. Pierson (CatInfo.org) has an analysis of commercial wet foods. Her analysis is based on the average nutritional content, not the guaranteed analysis, so is more accurate. Again - no mention of ingredients or cost, but using the Dry Matter Basis columns will help you find low-carb foods (under 10% carbs on a DMB basis is best), which is the best starting point.

http://www.catinfo.org/docs/Food Chart Public 9-22-12.pdf

Willowy · Jan 11, 2013

I struggled with that, too. I mean really? Canned Friskies better than dry TOTW? But I switched my cats to all canned about a year ago and they really are doing much better. I mostly feed Friskies because I have. . .um, more than 8 cats :lol3:. It's not too expensive, cheaper if you buy the 13-ounce cans. For 8 cats I estimate that it would cost about $105 a month (figuring 94 cents for the 13-ounce can, 6 ounces per cat per day). I also feed EVO 95% chicken and turkey occasionally, because that's the cheapest grain-free that comes in larger cans; it's only about $2 for a 13-ounce can.

I buy my food from www.doggiefood.com (the prices are figured with the 15% discount, it's not just for new customers; once you sign up they e-mail discount codes all the time), but the Friskies is also available at Walmart for that price.

If they eat the Chicken Soup with no problem I don't think they'll have a problem with the rice in Friskies.

A combo of dry and wet can work, too, especially if you add some extra water to the canned food.

just mike · Jan 11, 2013

KittyMom88 said:
My husband and I struggle with this quite often, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. We've got 8 indoor cats, so trying to balance providing a high quality diet with a reasonable price

Currently, we alternate between TOTW and Chicken Soup dry foods with a pet fountain. We do also try to monitor water intake as best as we can. Ideally we'd feed a grain free canned diet exclusively (I have a severe aversion to raw meat- I throw up when I see it, or raw would be our choice) but if we did a wet exclusive diet, we'd be talking $400-$450/month in food! :smshfrk:

If we chose a cheaper (read Friskies) canned food, we'd be down to $170 a month, but we'd be sacrificing serious quality. We also have several cats who have exhibited symptoms of grain allergies (we have two dogs with serious grain allergies, so I know what to look for)

Currently, we pay between $60 and $80 a month for the TOTW/Chicken Soup and occasionally another high-quality GF formula.

Does anyone feed a successful mixed diet? What would a good ratio of wet calories to dry calories look like? I'd love to get the additional benefit of fluids from the canned food, but keep the benefits of remaining strictly GF.

Advice?

Someone did a questionaire on what we feed our cats and our monthly costs on feeding quite some time ago. I believe my feeding costs were a bit around the $400 monthly mark for my 4 indoor and 1 feral cat.

IMO, and mine only, a lesser quality wet diet is preferable to an all dry diet. Hydration being the key here. I'll not belabor the cats are obligate carnivores discussion in this thread. And thank you LDG for mentioning Waltham's study although you are trying to assume their reasoning behind their suggestion of an 80% to 20% ratio of wet to dry

Personally I am really, really happy with my cat's diet of 90% wet to 10% dry. I know they are getting plenty of hydration and all of their wet food is premium quality. The bulk of their wet is Nutro but they get several other premium brands for variety.

A lot of cats do well on a mixed diet. A lot of cats also do well on an all kibble diet, provided they drink enough water. If I had to do an all kibble diet, I would get the most nutrient dense kibble my budget would allow. Likewise if I was on a budget and wanted to do a mixed diet; I would get the best bang for my budget dollar. If Friskies wet was all the budget would allow, then Friskies wet it would be. I'd try to supplement with a nutrient dense kibble if kibble is needed to supplement.

I know a LOT of people that currently mix a 50/50 ratio and have very healthy cats. For people on a strict budget the FF classics seem to be the wet of choice. I think you need to define exactly what you intend to spend and go from there. Sounds like you're doing everything right so far. TOTW is grain free IIRC. I would use it and then go with the best wet the budget would allow. That would be my choice but again, that is just me

ldg · Jan 12, 2013

NutroMike said:
And thank you LDG for mentioning Waltham's study although you are trying to assume their reasoning behind their suggestion of an 80% to 20% ratio of wet to dry

No assumption - a guess.

What is the basis for the recommendation? Do you have a link to the study?

just mike · Jan 12, 2013

LDG said:
No assumption - a guess. What is the basis for the recommendation? Do you have a link to the study?

I am going to try and find the study tomorrow. I have another person wanting to read it and I'll be sending it to them via PM. I'll also post it here. I honestly can not recall the reasoning behind the ratio. I was just poking you with the trouble stick anyway LOL!!!

But I'll see what I can dig up. I don't think it's changed at all because I would have received an update on it. Lemme see what I can find and will let you know.

ldg · Jan 12, 2013

Excellent, thanks Mike.

High Quality GF dry vs. low quality canned diets

kittymom88

TCS Member

Thread starter

cat person

TCS Member

mrsgreenjeens

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

kittymom88

TCS Member

Thread starter

ldg

TCS Member

ldg

TCS Member

Willowy

TCS Member

just mike

TCS Member

ldg

TCS Member

just mike

TCS Member

ldg

TCS Member

Latest Posts

Connect with us