Constipation/vomiting

l have a question about hard poops. l happened to be cleaning the bathroom or l wouldn't have seen this. The litter was in the hallway, and Tanner went poop. He did the first little bit fine, but he stayed in position for a good minute, straining and straining and finally a long poop emerged and sounded hard when it fell. Afterward, he walked oddly as if his backside was uncomfortable and kept licking it. After a couple of minutes, he vomited white foam. (He's just fine now, running around like a madman).

l guess my question is, did the vomiting come from all the straining? He was fed raw at 5am, and this happened just after 10am. They're not due to be fed for another couple of hours so l was surprised the vomit was foam! 

Should l add pumpkin to their raw once in a while? l use the catnutrition recipe to the tee, including the psyllium powder, so the struggle to pass a BM is surprising.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Andrya, you might want to consider adjusting the bone content of the ground. Maybe use just a tad less. The hard, dry poop is from an excess of calcium.

It's pretty much impossible to guage the Calciumhosphorus ratio when using bone in a ground recipe. But dry, hard poop to the extent it causes constipation is a good indication it's off, and there's too much calcium. I know the directions indicate how much bone to use - but it doesn't account for older or younger chickens, bigger or smaller chickens, with bigger or smaller bones. The only real way to know is... poop consistency. But the problem isn't fiber, it's the amount of calcium.

And yes, the vomiting is most likely from the straining, that's quite common.

If he's still constipated, then yes, I'd use a little pumpkin to help. But I wouldn't use it regularly, just when there's an issue with a batch of food.

Thanks for the reply 

This last batch that l'm using now (and for the past week or so) is a bonemeal batch.

ls it okay to reduce the bonemeal amount in the recipe without unbalancing it too much?

Would it be better to give pumpkin and keep the calcium the same, or is the calcium a bit high in the recipe?

The other 2 cats seem to be fine but l can't honestly say l've paid attention to their comings and goings in the litterbox.

1400 grams [3 lbs] raw muscle meat   
400 grams [14 oz] raw heart  
200 grams [7 oz] raw liver  
16 oz [2 cups] water
4 tablespoons bonemeal  
2 tablespoons unflavored gelatin  (l did NOT use gelatin)
4 raw egg yolks 
4 capsules raw glandular supplement, (Immoplex)
4000 mg salmon oil  (l used krill this time)
800 IU Vitamin E  (dry E)
200 mg Vitamin B-50 complex  
1.5 tsp. Lite salt  (with iodine)
4 tsp. psyllium husk powder

l also added the optional Taurine.

Can you post the amount of calcium and phosphorus per tablespoon of bonemeal? It should be on the bottle. Then I can figure the Ca ratio

Yikes, l thought they were all the same 

The one l use is Swiss Natural, and the ingredients are:

Per teaspoon,

Bone Meal (porcine bones) 1.6g

Naturally containing:

Elemental Calcium 360 - 440mg

Elemental Phosphorus 160mg.

Well, they are probably all close - I just don't know what the numbers are, offhand. And this is why I use boneless. :lol3: Look at that elemental calcium number - you could drive a truck through it! I'll put together a table for you.

I'm not doing something right, but don't have time to figure it out. I'm coming up with numbers that make no sense. I'll work on it when we're back from errands, OK? Oh - I see the problem. The amount listed is per teaspoon. I have to multiply the calcium by three. But I still have to run!

You're a star! Thank you 

OK, I'm still puzzled as to why he's constipated, unless it's the psyllium husk in the formula.

The Ca ratio even if the elemental calcium is at the high end, isn't even 1.0:1. At the low-end, it's 0.77:1, mid-range it would be 0.85:1, and high-end (440mg per teaspoon), it's 0.93:1. (And the recommended Ca ratio is typically 1.0:1 - 1.5:1. Most raw feeders shoot for either 1.0:1 or up to 1.3:1). If you've been feeding this amount for the week, if the issue was the amount of calcium, the issue ought to be soft stools, not constipation.

The only explanation is the psyllium husk.

Here's the table, and let's look up psyllium.


Edited to add: you can click on the pic and it will become larger/readable.

Oh - FYI, I used chicken for all the ingredients. But it doesn't matter much - there's really not enough difference to have any kind of major impact. Beef has more phosphorus, but that would only lower the ratios.

OK - quick search result. If not taken with enough water, psyllium can cause constipation. http://www.ehow.com/list_7418778_risks-psyllium-husk.html

In fact - there are a number of potential downsides to psyllium. I'd try leaving it out of the recipes, and see what happens.

FYI, Dr. Pierson has this to say:

When I first started feeding my cats a meat and bones diet over 9 years ago, 2 of my cats did experience a few episodes of minor constipation (cried one time in the litter box but were able to pass the stool within one minute) over the course of the first 2 years. I played around with the psyllium by increasing it, decreasing it, and then finally omitting it. All of my fooling around with the psyllium amount did not seem to make any difference in the moisture content of the stools.

Click to expand...

One of her cats has an abnormality in his colon, so she switched to guar gum as a stool softener. But without a lot of water... it looks like psyllium can be a problem. I'd skip it in the next few batches and see what happens. Cats don't need fiber (if they've got normal/healthy GI systems).

lt's wonderful of you to supply me with this information.

Thank you so very much 

Hmm, that is puzzling isn't it. You must be right, it may then be the psyllium. Next batch l'll make half with, and half without so they don't get a drastic change all at once. l'll add a little water to this current batch too until it's gone. l notice it's a little stiffer than the previous batches.

Thank you Laurie, once again for all your help. l'll cut and paste all this onto my Raw Feeding Forum "diary".

That sounds like a good plan. But do a bit of reading on psyllium... and consider slowly phasing it out and see how they do. If they need a fiber, I'd consider slippery elm bark powder, personally (though I really wouldn't know how to add it to a batch of food. :anon: ).