Raw feeding or BARF in Australia - Need Some Food Advice

Hello, short-time lurker, finally coming out of the woodworks because I have a question that my Googlefu cannot answer...gah.

I live in Australia, and I've just adopted a lovely 3 month old kitten named Fagin (single cat home for now). Now, I was already planning to do wet food, but as I read catinfo.org and everything Dr. Pierson wrote, and then subsequent readings from other vets/nutrition hounds, I came to realize that I really want to incorporate some raw food into my cat's diet. All of his food if I can afford it.

After a lot of reading, I came across BARF - biologically appropriate raw food. There are two different popular companies which do this, but there's also smaller ones as well. They have nutrition info and ingredients listed here:

Dr. B's: http://www.barfaustralia.com/Products/BARFFlavours/BARFforCats.aspx

(which doesn't include the info for the rabbit, which makes me frowny face. I do like that it's been done by a vet)

Big Dog:

Turkey:  http://www.bigdogpetfoods.com.au/product-view/turkey-barf-for-cats-37

Kangaroo:  http://www.bigdogpetfoods.com.au/product-view/kangaroo-barf-for-cats-38

Now, I saw that about a year ago, Aunty had made some comments in a previous thread about Barf potentially making cats constipated when combined with meaty bones. Which brings me to my questions:

1) Is BARF a bad idea to be fed all on its own? When I read the contents/nutrition, it definitely seems superior to canned foods, and follows the basic guidelines Dr. Pierson recommends on her site in what to look for in premade foods. Plus it costs the same as canned, basically.

2) What is a cost effective, raw-friendly way to feed my cats that's not like the above? I think I could do Frankenprey with cost effectiveness, but I don't trust myself to balance his food out completely, and would probably still supplement with canned just to make sure. I'd be willing to try though!

I was planning on doing the Dr. B's BARF plus fresh meat once a day/a few times a week, with the occasional meaty bone as a treat. Right now we're at a 50/50 mix of his canned and BARF, which he licks right up, but he won't eat the BARF totally alone yet, so I'm taking it easy to switch him over. I've already noticed benefits - his poos are much less smelly! 

I'll confess, the BARF also makes it easier for me if we need to have someone else feed him. 

I want to do what's best for my kitten overlord, but I can't afford to grind my own food like Dr. Pierson's recipe is done. The supplements are the problem - getting a 30-40 count supplement bottle here runs around $35-45 apiece, and meats like turkey are hard to come by/expensive when you do get it.

Add to that I live in a space conscious apartment (AKA I have no longterm food storage for big batches), and I just go Argh!

If you read this, cookies for you, and a guide if you come to Australia. Thank you so much!

PS - just to make sure we're clear, I try to follow the guidelines on Catinfo for my minimum standard: no dry food, no seafood, no cooked bones, etc.

Silviar!!  Good to hear another Aussie is trying to decipher this stuff!.  Sorry, I don't have answers for you, but I am pretty much at the same point myself in terms of research and trying products (additionally my cat hates minced foods, so grinding or pre-made like Dr B's is out).  Kato is a good eater of chunked meat and chicken necks...but after a couple of years of doing a can plus various chunked fresh meat, I am upping my game to get this 'balanced' thing sorted.  SO, I'm waiting with baited breath for all the advice your post is about to get!  (PS, kitten no. 2 arrives in Feb!).

BARF is the term commonly used for the method of feeding dogs that includes some grains and veggies. . .not really appropriate for cats. But if a company is just using the name but their food IS appropriate for cats, no problem!

Well.... the BARF foods listed there are rather high in carbohydrates (based on the guaranteed analysis, it's over 20% on a dry matter basis), kind of defeating the purpose of feeding raw, IMO. Biologically appropriate food for cats doesn't include much in the way of carbs. I find it ironic that they call it BARF - yet include apples, carrots, etc. :lol3: The BARF concept is based on the theory that dogs are omnivores, not carnivores, and that wolves eat the stomach contents of their larger prey (which they don't). Why BARF was even "adapted" for cats, I have no clue. :dk:

And carrots really provide nothing in the way of nutrition for cats. They do provide fiber. But cats lack the ability to convert beta carotene into retinol (vitamin A), so .... :dk:

Auntie Crazy's concern about the constipation issue is that BARF, as practiced by Dr. Billinghurst (the founder of the diet), recommends too much bone - which is then "offset" by the inclusion of grains/veggies/fruit to increase the amount of fiber. Too much calcium in the diet = constipation. Too little calcium = soft poop. With raw, the consistency of poop is adjusted by the amount of calcium, not the amount of fiber. For cats with a lifetime of damage to their GI systems, they MAY need some fiber - though there are better forms (pumpkin, slippery elm bark powder).

The Ca ratio does appear to be OK. I only looked at the turkey diet, but it's 1.2:1. (The guidance range is 1.0:1 - 1.5:1).

An analysis of feral cat diets from around the world indicated that on a dry matter basis, cats naturally eat a diet of whole small mammals, and while they do eat the stomach contents, that amounts to a total carbohydrate intake of 2.8% on a dry matter basis (just 2.0% on an energy basis). On a dry matter basis, the natural diet of a cat is Protein 62.7%, fat 22.8%, ash 11.8%, and carbs 2.8%. The cats ate nothing but prey - some chewed a little grass. If you want to read the study, this is it: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8404219 (The full report is free, I just can't link to it directly). FYI, "NFE" is "N-free extract" meaning nitrogen-free extract - anything that isn't protein/fat/mineral (which is carbs and fiber). "EE" is "ethereal extract" which is fat.

I wouldn't have a problem including the foods in a rotation, if you needed something easy for someone else to feed if you do a lot of traveling. But it's really not that hard to prepare meals in advance for someone to dethaw and put out, if your cats are already eating raw by the time you have to travel.

Balancing a whole prey model raw diet isn't difficult, really. You do need to know how much food they'll eat a day so you can calculate the right proportions. But the basic guideline is 80% meat, 6 - 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ (like kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, etc.). This diet will be short in choline, vitamin D, and omega 3s, which is why whole prey feeders include at least egg yolk (includes all three), once or twice a week; sardines (tinned, water, no salt) once or twice a week - or a fish oil supplement of some kind (I use salmon oil, 500mg daily for some cats and krill oil, 500mg daily for some of our cats). The sardines/salmon oil/krill oil are high in vitamin D and the omega 3s. I personally feed sardines once or twice a week AND use the salmon or krill oil. I also feed egg yolks twice a week.

If you can source hearts (I use chicken, duck, and turkey - many use beef hearts, but there you may be able to easily source lamb hearts), these are great to use as the meat portion of the diet 2 - 4x a week as they are packed with taurine.

These links may help you:

http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/getting-started-tips-for-frankenprey-feeding/
http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/a-frankenprey-and-whole-prey-feeding-guide/
http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/My-Feeding-Schedule.pdf
http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Frankenprey-Calculator.xlsx

If there are smaller companies making BARF diets there, maybe they have cat foods that don't have as much ... "other stuff?" :dk: Because for a prepared food, what you're looking for is one that uses the same rough guidelines as the whole prey model raw. For cost and nutrition, many companies will use up to 20% liver. This is fine, so long as the Ca ratio is kept around that 1.2:1 or 1.3:1 (or lower, down to 1.0:1) ratio, and don't count on fiber to prevent constipation. IMO.

If you have access to an asian market, you may be able to easily source anything you need to make your own. FYI, if you can access green tripe, this is also a great meat portion of a meal 1-2x a week. It's packed with nutrition and probiotics. Cats in the wild do eat the stomach and guts of their prey, so they get a dose of probiotics with every meal. To make up for this, I feed my cats a human probiotic that includes acidophilus and bifidus daily - 10 billion live CFU. Yogurt is not an appropriate source of this - it doesn't have enough probiotics in it to make a difference, and milk (cultured or not) is simply not appropriate for cats. I buy a human supplement with live colony forming units (CFU) and just sprinkle it on their food daily.

I hope this helps!

Willowy said:

BARF is the term commonly used for the method of feeding dogs that includes some grains and veggies. . .not really appropriate for cats. But if a company is just using the name but their food IS appropriate for cats, no problem!

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Yes, here in AUS they use the name for their cat and dog types, each of which have different formulations. The cat ones generally having the more appropriate more meat and minimal roughage, but as always, the label is where it's at.

LDG - I don't know if you have that prewritten for everyone who has the same questions (sorry if I made you repeat), but THANK YOU for that explanation about what you add to the meat/bone/etc. the way you explained several points really helps me understand more about balancing the diet. I read all of Dr. Pierson's page, but it was a little... intimidating. I'm going to reread them again, and have a think more about Fagin's food.

Sourcing other types of prey body parts like hearts is, surprisingly, easy to do here. I also have a butcher right around the corner I can get some of my meat from if the stuff at the supermarket is no good. I'm pretty sure I can get the tripe for the same reasons. I know I've seen some sort of tripe around. Asian markets, unfortunately, are in small supply on my part of the coast. I live 2 hours from the nearest city, but I've learned that the things they sell in the US you can often get in the plain regular markets here. You just have to look in the right spot, and that's the trick here.

I can't seem to find any predone food that doesn't minorly source to fruits and veg, even if that's supposed to be a no no. The filler thing we just can't get away from. I think the only one on the list you made about feeding your cat cost of natural vs canned we can get here is Evo - and the cheapest I could find was $67 for 12 x 365 gram cans. (Excluding, of course, Whiskas and Fancy Feast, which are the two biggest sellers in the world. Those, ProPlan, a select few Hill Science, Dine, and Applaws are basically the only canned foods you can get in stores here). If I do find one, I'm posting an update so other people in Aus can find it, too. (*waves to TammyP*)

I really, really wish we had things like Nature's Pride to buy here. It's so frustrating not being able to get higher quality commercial things. I guess on the plus side, it does force me to really get down to giving him the freshest/most natural options available. But I'd do anything for my baby. 

LDG - how did you come up with the 20% carbs on the guaranteed analysis for the BARF? Just curious, so I can do my own calculations better from on out!

Silviar said:

LDG - how did you come up with the 20% carbs on the guaranteed analysis for the BARF? Just curious, so I can do my own calculations better from on out!

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You add up the other percentages (on a dry matter basis), and what's left over is carbs. Like the turkey one---50% protein, 23% fat, 3% fiber = 76% so the rest is 24% carbs :/. Although there's probably some ash in there too so we'll say 20%. That's pretty high, more than a lot of kibbles even.

Carb calculator: http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

Dry matter basis calculator (for the brands that don't provide it): http://fnae.org/dmb.html

And no, :lol3:, not a canned answer.

IMO, when you're first starting out, it ALL seems intimidating. :lol3:

Dr. Pierson uses a number of supplements that most whole prey model raw feeders do not, and there are reasons for this: the principal reason is that her recipe is for ground food. When you grind food, you increase the surface area exponentially, and this exposes FAR more of the meat/organ to oxidation, and you wind up with more potential nutrient damage. Feeding whole prey model raw, for the most part the meat remains intact - chunks, anyway, so you don't have the same issue with oxidation and nutrient damage.

The meat and organs provide most of the nutrition our kitties need. But it is a "model" - it's not an entire animal, and we need to substitute for what they're missing by not eating brain, the other organs, the blood, etc. Brain is high in omega 3s (DHA, EPA), and thus we compensate with fish oil (best a high quality one, thus salmon or krill). Meat doesn't have much vitamin A or D - the liver and kidneys, especially, are high in vitamin A. The USDA nutrient database is missing information for a lot of things for vitamin D, so I don't really know where it comes from, but I do know that if we feed the sardines and/or fish oil, and egg yolks, it's (more than) sufficient in the diet.

So that's really the primary difference, I believe, between what's "needed" when feeding prey model vs. a homemade ground.

It's also why, when feeding prey model, it's important to include different proteins. The more variety (over time) you can provide, the better. Goat vs lamb vs chicken will all have different levels of different nutrients. And the thigh vs the breast vs the shoulder will also have a different nutrient profile.

I feed my cats chicken, pork, beef, lamb, goat, rabbit, cornish hen, llama.... I use chicken liver and beef kidney because they're easy to source. I use duck hearts, chicken hearts, and turkey hearts - again, easy for me to source. I use whole quail and quarter it for them once a week (I rotate who gets what quarter - I have 8 cats). There, I imagine it would be easy to incorporate some kangaroo. I would use duck, goose and pheasant - but none of my cats like it. :dk: Others that live near ethnic markets are able to provide spleen, pork brains, pancreas as the "other" secreting organ....

When transitioning, it is best to keep it simple, and introduce new proteins/new organs slowly.

But don't feel bad asking questions - that's what the forum is for!

Hi Silviar and LDG.  

Thanks for the encouragement LDG.  My husband and I did our first buying and packaging for a balanced raw diet today - we just about killed each other.  I know it will just take time to settle into an easy model - but this week we have a painfully calculated mixed package for each meal (21 tubs) of all the meat/liver/organ/bone Kato needs.  Time for a breather before I tackle this again and get more of a menu model worked .  On the plus side, Kato crunched up with great satisfaction the whole lot of 1 chicken rib - bone gone!  I think our week is going to be frustrating tho, as I don't think he's going to eat the liver or the chicken hearts, maybe not even the lamb brain just to confound it (he ate it last time).  Fingers crossed.

Silviar,  I'm also looking at better types of canned food.  We've been on Dine, which is nothing much to speak about, (but at least not as bad as something made from meat meal.) My breeder put me onto pookinuk and paws for life websites.  She recommended a NZ prduct Ziwipeaks - specifically the venison and fish.  She's not a total raw feeder herself and does also feed kibble, but in looking at the sites, I've asked them to send me just ONE can, to trial, of  Ziwipeak Venison And Fish Daily Cat Cans, Evo Cat Chicken And Turkey 95 Can, Felidae Grain Free Pure Elements Canned. l see these cans as an improvement for sure on Dine, as there is just so much more meat in them (anyone else care to volunteer an opinion on these?)

I've also looked at all the 'BARF for cats' labelled things available in Australia.  I share the concerns mentioned.  In fact, I always felt these products were made by dog-lovers and were more dog-centric.  I've written to one smaller Victorian company (Im in Melbourne) to get a bunch of answers about ingredients; I'll let you know if I think it is any good, but given there is garlic in there, I don't think this vet knows it is toxic to dogs and cats??  Anyway, I'm sure he will enlighten me about its inclusion.  

One other thing I've come across is the Kangaroo as pet food problem.  From what I've read ( a lot)  it appears that Kangaroo designated as pet food is manditorily treated with sulfites.  A pet food manufacturer will say they havent added any sulfites - and they may not have, but they don't know that the roo ingredient has already been treated.  I therefore steer clear of all pet roo meat.  I have fed Kato human grade roo meat...but again, this doesn't give us a premade natural diet, it's the total self made raw thing we're doing (trying to do!)

Lucy

Ziwipeak is a very good quality canned food - it's available here, and when I fed canned, I had it in the rotation. Same with the EVO 95% meat canned foods. :nod: Don't know the other one.

As to introducing new proteins and organs.... we're a year into raw feeding, and I still have some cats that are having issues with the liver and kidney. We have freeze dried chicken liver available here, and for them, I use that. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

The liver is high in vitamin A, but as it is fat soluble, it takes some time for a deficiency to develop. So there's no need to feed a balanced diet from meal one. Do you balance your diet at every meal? I know I don't. Nutritional deficiencies take time to develop, so there's no rush. When I transitioned to whole prey model raw, I did it one protein at a time. I think it was a couple of weeks before I started to introduce organs, and it took another few weeks for most of the cats to even be able to keep them down. I started with just a couple of bites - smothered in crushed freeze dried chicken breast (a treat they love). And it took a couple of months for most of them to eat the amount that was needed.

The most important thing is that this not be stressful - on you or the kitties!

Lol, yes, for this week, it's balanced at every meal (not actually my idea, and probably not going to be eaten).

I think I need to figure out the liver thing as Kato has low body fat like a greyhound (he is a Korat - we have to warn the vets about his body fat too). So, he may already have a deficiency as he has never eaten liver (the 2 times we tried) over the 2 years of his life (unless his 1 can a day has made up for it).

I think I'm being anal about doing all the calculations due to fear I am doing him harm on his previously mainly meat based diet.  i get this fear from Vets who don't support anything but commercial (I even had a Hills Science Vet rep call me to talk about their food that I had questioned when the vet tried to sell me it).  Also, Dr Lisa Pierson has made mention of people feeding an 'ad hoc' diet.  She says a forum was discussing her site but not following the exact recipe - a serious no-no apparently and she said if you don't follow exactly, you're better off with canned.  Was it this site?? Was she talking about a Frankenprey diet?? Does anyone know her views on a Frankenprey diet??  So, yes, I'm a bit anxious to get it  right, especially as we have a new one arriving in Feb...

Lucy

I figured that was the formula but wanted to check. Thank you, Willowy! I wish labels were more transparent (said every cat owner ever).

LDG - Right on, and I read you loud and clear. I'm going to start introducing 1-2 things this week, and see if he likes them/will eat them. I'm going to start with some straight up meat first before giving him his first bone, and slowly replace out the canned/BARF. He's still eating a 50/50 mixture of the two right now, and he eats it fine, but I won't buy any more BARF after this box, I think. Since I can get canned food that's technically better than barf. At least I won't have to say BARF anymore. Thank god.

Lucy/Tammyp - Really, Dr. Pierson says it herself when she recommends feeding raw. She doesn't really have a problem with Frankenprey. Her biggest beef seems to be getting people off of dried food and onto anything that resembles more meat, whether it's homemade or canned, with a nod to every person's budget being different.

I haven't tried Ziwipeak, but I did notice some online outlets selling it. I also know you can get Evo online in Aus, it's just expensive. Hopefully I won't need too many more cans of food - Fagin's pretty keen on gnawing things, so I think at least some parts of the diet he'll take right to.

Just take your time. I experimented giving Fagin BARF by itself first time. Since he didn't eat it or have any interest in it, after 10 minutes I did 50/50 with his canned food, and he loved it that way. He's gotten a lot bigger this week, and he's started eating his half/half pretty much all in one go rather than leaving half for his noon meal, which means I'm going to introduce some meat pieces for him to chew on midday, to keep him at at least 3 meals a day. 

And when you think about it, done correctly, a Frankenprey diet is what she grinds into the food she makes, but whole pieces instead. )

I happened to run into my butcher as I was getting coffee yesterday (the benefits of small towns!), and I told him what I wanted to get for my cat. It sounds like I'll be able to source everything through him. So excited. I'm going to try out some bits here in the next day or two.

I just thought you'd all like to know - I gave Fagin some sliced up chicken today, and after putting his canned cat gravy on it, he ate it all! And left the canned bit in the bottom of his bowl, LOL.

I took a picture because I thought it was funny. He didn't want to eat the chicken breast without the gravy on top lol.


The canned stuff is licked dry, and he only left one little chicken bit in there. 

So now my question is... is there a way to make canned 'gravy' type stuff for him if that's what he wants on top of his food, or do you think he'll eventually stop eating the canned altogether? Oh, so thrilled to hear him bite and tear into his meat!

Thanks Silviar!

I love the name of your kitty - 'Fagin' just sounds like he should be ripping into raw!

And after a bit of coaxing, I report Kato has made it through almost 3 meals (one piece of pork and one piece of lamb rib are left from breakfast - but he did play with them as I found on the floor).  Kato has a penchant for being hand-fed.  I think it is from Dave, my husband, giving him bits of meat as he chops them up for his tubs, so now he sees hand feeding as a bit of a love-fest!  It got him through the chicken heart and lamb brain tho!!

:lol3: Actually, hand feeding was a transition trick Carolina had to use with one of her cats! The trick is .... reducing that need.

And Silvia, no worries! Mixing the raw with canned is a VERY typical transition tool - and over time you'll be able to use less and less.

Hope you guys had a great and safe New Year celebration! HAPPY NEW YEAR!

And we've done it - chicken today was with no canned, and he gobbled it right up!

That was fast! He's discovered his inner carnivore! :lol3:

I know, right? He'd actually started leaving the canned food on the bottom for last, so I figured - why not? Now I'm sitting here looking at the leftover cans and thinking, "How can I get rid of this?"

I'm just so darned pleased right now.    I'm heading down to the butcher today to get our first bone in meals...then next week, I'm adding in the organs. I -might- do the liver this week, too. So excited. :>

Hang on to the cans for a bit, just in case.... but is there a shelter or rescue near you that might be able to use them?