Angel Has Cystitis AGAIN (3rd time in 5 mo.s!)

Hi every one. We are back from the Vet. & have an update.  He does have strurite crystals this time. The last two times, I believe there was just some debris in the bladder.

We are continuing the Dasequin, along w/ the Amitriptyline. This time, I got 2 bags of fluids & are to give them every other day as before. This will last two weeks.

His Vet thinks we do need to make a food change, because obviously, it's not working. I will try the blue buffalo, and hopefully that will make the difference.

His pH was 8!  (so that means either it increased just from last night, or my strips are wrong, because I got a 6.5 last night). 

Whatever it's called on the chart for water (don't remember), was a 10 so she said he is getting plenty, more than most cats.

She wants to see him again in two weeks.

As far as the corn silk, she said the only issue may be is if he had a grain allergy. As far as the rest, she doesn't have a problem w/ it, just doesn't have the knowledge on them.

I'm not sure that the silver would do anything in this case, because there is no bacteria infection.

There was one thing she told me about. It's an injection that cost 80.00! -and, I would have to give it. It's Polysulfated Glycosaminoglycan. It's supposed to insulate the bladder tissue from the urine,

so the crystals don't irritate  it. If it were a one time treatment, I would consider it, but the print out she gave me said it's given 2xs/wk for 4 wks. I can not afford that!

So lets all pray that the food change will work. I will still look into the corn silk tea. I'd rather him be a little itchy & fix this once & for all than go through this again!

It's really taking a toll on me. (emotionally & financially)  I almost started crying on the phone w/ my mom today. It's stressing me out, & that's not good for him!

"Looks like we will both be on Rescue Remedy!!!!!!

Thank goodness I have some!!!

I recommend writing to Bravo and Before Grain to ask what the magnesium content of the food is. They don't list it on the site, I looked.

But being high protein, low carb, and the Bravo being raw, his urine pH should be spot-on.

I suspect he's having the same thing Spooky is. She went INTO the raw diet with three stones in her bladder. The very existence of those stones (or the sludge, in the case of Angel) raises the urine pH, which keeps the cycle of struvite production going. What caused them? It could be the food - it could also have been triggered by stress.

With Spooky, we dissolved the stones with the use of methionine in addition to her raw diet. Meat is high in methionine, which is an acidifier. In fact, it is the acidifier that is added to the prescription Hill's c/d diet. We kept her on that long enough to lower her urine pH despite the stones in her bladder, and they were subsequently dissolved. We used the sub-q fluids to flush her out. But we didn't do enough sub-q fluids. I didn't know it at the time. But I kept testing her urine pH with the home test strips, and a couple of months later, her pH started creeping back up. So I took her for an ultrasound, even though she wasn't exhibiting any signs of a problem. That's when they saw she has some residual sludge still left. So we put her back on the methionine and did a more aggressive round of sub-q fluids for longer.

I don't know if we completely flushed her out or not. But I'm keeping track of her urine pH, and so far, so good. :cross:

There is no better diet for FLUTD - especially if there is an actual crystal problem - than raw. The high level of methionine that occurs in the meat keeps an already healthy bladder with a urine pH of 6.25 - 6.5, exactly where it needs to be. But I don't know the Bravo patties - are you feeding the balanced blend? No veggies, right? :dk: I don't know the bone content, so it's best to ask them for the bone content, the Ca ratio, and the amount of magnesium - either on a dry matter basis as a percent, or the mg per kg.

Of course you can try switching foods. Without checking the mineral content in comparison, there's no real way to know if it will help. And BG doesn't list the amount of magnesium on their website either.

But if that sludge had not been complete flushed, it would, over time, raise the urine pH, and cause another round of struvite crystal production. It is a cycle that just keeps going round in circles, unless you get him completely flushed out.

I would chat with the vet about using methionine temporarily as a urine acidifier. My vet looked it up, and found the daily dose to be given should range from 1,000mg - 1500mg for my 11 pound Spooky. I bought Solgar 500mg methionine, and add one capsule to each meal every other day, and to two meals every other day, and I did this for a month, while administering the sub-q fluids. Obviously for Angel, you'd want to continue with the other prescribed meds, and try the cornsilk.

If the problem isn't diet, but some type of stress (despite the lack of stressors! ), you can consider giving him 25mg of L-theanine daily. It comes in treats prepared for cats. I just give Spooky 1/4 of a 100mg L-theanine capsule (by NOW).

!!!!!!!

L theanine comes in treats? Where do you get those?

http://www.kalahealth.nl/calmix_nl.htm

There may be other brands, I don't know, that was just a quick search. I do remember not liking all the other ingredients, so I decided just to use the plain supplement.

Easiest to search for Suntheanine.

Kelly, I looked up some threads in nutrition to find canned food recommendations. Apparently By Nature 95% has an appropriate mineral profile. Otto uses it for her Mazy cat that has a problem with crystals (and was on prescription food for years), and it kept her pH stable.

Oh - I really should add - in the thread that identified By Nature as a good food for kitties with struvite crystal issues, it was mentioned that the Before Grain didn't keep the pH stable!

Sorry, one more thing. :anon: If you want to consider making homemade raw, the use of eggshell powder provides a lower magnesium level than using bone, and is something worth considering for kitties with struvite crystal issues. :nod:

LDG said:

Oh - I really should add - in the thread that identified By Nature as a good food for kitties with struvite crystal issues, it was mentioned that the Before Grain didn't keep the pH stable!

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Thanks Laurie, that's good to know. He does like the by nature (that's what he used to always eat before Pet Smart disco'ed it & couldn't find it anymore) & would be less expensive to get than the B.B. I took the 4 cans of BG back to the Nat. pet food store yesterday to exchange.

They didn't have B.B. so after telling them what was going on, they said their "go to" for UT stuff was the Natures Variety Instinct, so that's what I have for now. (4 cans).

I will have to contact Bravo & ask about the minerals. It is the Bravo Complete burgers. It does have some veggies in it though. I know that in the long run it's less expensive to make your own,

but I am on a very tight budget (especially now), & am not equip to do it. I was wondering about the raw. even though It's the healthiest, I think I started him on it back in the summer, & that is when this all started, so  it's really made me wonder. For now, I think I just want to stick to the canned that we know will be okay. I'm so overwhelmed, emotionally, & financially!!!

It's tough handling all this by myself. I am so grateful for you & all the other members help & support!!!

As for the L-theanine, I did price some at the health food store, & it was very expensive,( 20.something dollars)  so unless I can find some cheaper... I will look at the link for the treats you posted.

He is still on the Amytriptaline(5mg/day). (only 8.40 from the vet)

Do you still think the Prosperous Farmer we have him on for the itchy skin/damp heat is o.k.?

I go back to work tomorrow, so I will take the Bravo box & make a copy, so I can Scan it & email it to you.

Your vet didn't recommend a veterinary prescription food? My cat had this and he is now on Royal Canin SO cat food and hasn't had it occur again.... I, also, invested in 3 water fountains to encourage my cats to drink more and they drink a lot more then did before!

OK, it'll help to know more info about the Bravo patties. We'll see if there's enough info on the box. But given otto saw a rise in pH with the Before Grain, it could be that. :dk:

Did you discuss using methionine for a month or so with the vet at all?

As to the Prosperous Farmer.... when did you start using it in relation to the problems? At this point, everything needs to be re-evaluated. My only concern is that it seems to have otherwise contributed so much to his comfort.

A side effect of amitriptyline is urine retention. It is even prescribed to treat bed-wetting in children. He won't get flushed out if he's retaining urine. It could be causing his urine to become concentrated and get crystals. See what your vet thinks about a connection here.

I hope he's feeling better soon.

Well, it's prescribed as an anti-spasmodic in this instance.... and it's the amount of water intake that impacts the urine concentration, and Angel gets plenty of water from his diet. I expect his urine specific gravity is good - Kelly, can you get the number?

I was just thinking it might be causing him to retain urine, regardless of the amount he drinks. I just wanted to point out that amitriptyline can cause bladder issues because it would be a shame if a medicine prescribed to help him could be contributing to his cystitis.

It's actually a fairly common part of the treatment protocol.

I just think that to avoid prescription food, a urine acidifier must be considered, at least temporarily. Methionine is the same acidifier used IN the prescription diets - but it can be provided without all the other crap that comes with the prescription diet.

And Kelly, I know how frustrating and worrisome this is.

smitten4kittens said:

A side effect of amitriptyline is urine retention. It is even prescribed to treat bed-wetting in children. He won't get flushed out if he's retaining urine. It could be causing his urine to become concentrated and get crystals. See what your vet thinks about a connection here.

I hope he's feeling better soon

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It was prescribed because it's an anti-spasmodic & anti- anxiety. To help with bladder spasms, so he could go, & for any stress.

Thanks, I just want him to get better too.

Thanks Laurie, I will email & ask the vet about the methionine. As far as the Prosperous farmer pills, I will have to look back in his file of invoices, & see when I started them.

I am at work now until 2:00 today, so I will get that Bravo info to you.  I start the fluids again today, Oh how I hate to do it, but know I must!!

LDG said:

Well, it's prescribed as an anti-spasmodic in this instance.... and it's the amount of water intake that impacts the urine concentration, and Angel gets plenty of water from his diet. I expect his urine specific gravity is good - Kelly, can you get the number?

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Sorry Laurie, I just saw this. Do you mean his moisture level number?  I don't remember what the term the vet used but she said that was a 10. something, so that he is getting plenty of water, more than most kitties.

Angels mommy said:

There was one thing she told me about. It's an injection that cost 80.00! -and, I would have to give it. It's Polysulfated Glycosaminoglycan. It's supposed to insulate the bladder tissue from the urine,

so the crystals don't irritate  it. If it were a one time treatment, I would consider it, but the print out she gave me said it's given 2xs/wk for 4 wks. I can not afford that!

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Sounds like she's referring to Adequan injections. Are you sure the $80 is per injection??? That price is outrageous. I get a whole vial from my vet for between $50-60 and it lasts for more than a year of monthly injections for my cat's arthritis. Maybe clarify with your vet what the cost is. If it helps make it cheaper, tell her you'll get your own syringes from the pharmacy.

Angels mommy said:

Sorry Laurie, I just saw this. Do you mean his moisture level number?  I don't remember what the term the vet used but she said that was a 10. something, so that he is getting plenty of water, more than most kitties.

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No, not if the number was "10." Part of a urine analysis is measuring the concentration of the urine. It's called "specific gravity."

Here's information:

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/urine-specific-gravity-test
http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/ua-rout/sg.htm
http://www.iris-kidney.com/education/en/education05.shtml

We're not worried about his kidneys - but about the amount of water vs crystals in his urine:

From Catinfo.org

If there is not enough water flowing through the bladder on a regular basis the following will happen with respect to crystals:

The urine specific gravity goes up meaning that the urine becomes more concentrated. When this happens, the crystals are more apt to become 'super-saturated' in the urine and form stones.

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http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth#Urinalysis/Dietary_Issues

LDG said:

No, not if the number was "10." Part of a urine analysis is measuring the concentration of the urine. It's called "specific gravity."
Here's information:
http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/urine-specific-gravity-test
http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/ua-rout/sg.htm
http://www.iris-kidney.com/education/en/education05.shtml
We're not worried about his kidneys - but about the amount of water vs crystals in his urine:
From Catinfo.org
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth#Urinalysis/Dietary_Issues

Click to expand...

That must have been another test than, because whatever it was, she said the 10 was good, meaning he was getting a lot of water. (& I don't remember the word gravity being in there).

Hi Everyone,

Sorry it's been so long. Angel just had his follow up appointment yesterday.  The vet said his pH was perfect (yay!), But, that there were still some stravite(sp?) crystals in the urine.

SO, She said that IF there are still some in there when we check again in a month, then we will have to talk about a food change. I am praying that by then, there won't be, because I know he is on good food. I have checked out the yahoo FLUTD group, & they were saying on there that the minerals being to high in the food was an old & unproven theory. ??? That many on there feed their cats BG.

Angel was on that sense April, & has been on the By Nature for a couple of weeks now. (& the Blue Buffalo in between, while waiting for the by nature to come in). There have been no changes as for stress, so

I am hoping what is in there is just the remains of what was on there to start, & no new have formed. I am still giving him fluids, (just started his 2nd bag, although doing that does stress him out!) 

The vet also said that sense he is not having any trouble, (peeing BIG bladder size clumps)  I can take him off the Amytriptiline. She didn't say I needed to do this, but thought I would wean him off by cutting the 5mg half pill in half again to 2.5 for the week, then his first two days off, I would be home. (just in relation to no stress).

ANYWAY, one of my bosses just called to ask me if I would work Sunday in a home show we are in this weekend. I never work these, our salesman do, but we are down from two, to one, so asked if I could do Sunday. (10-3)  "I am SO stressed about it!" I do not want to do it, because it's one of my only days off (Sun & Mon.s), especially w/  Angel  going through this right now, but I really don't feel like I have a choice.   Otherwise he will have to drive down 7 hrs to work 5 hrs at the show.   I just hate to do anything out of the ordinary right now, because I don't want Angel to have ANY stress.

"This sucks!!!"  I hate feeling backed into a corner like this. "I should have just said I already had plans!"

I will just have to make sure I give him some Rescue Remedy before I leave, & I'll be taking it too!!