New research shows that cats are able to self-regulate their diet.

The key word here is "addicted." Studies should be done on a sample that's representative of the population in question as a whole. If it's true that the cat population "as a whole" is already addicted to kibble, then yes, this study would not apply to "real world" cats. But if the cat population "as a whole" is not addicted and can make choices that aren't influenced by addiction, then yes, this study would apply to a wide range of cats. I would think that "addicted" cats are the outliers and not representative of cats in general, and that if a cat compulsively eats kibble then it definitely needs a more specialized, controlled diet; but I would not say that all cats must eat the same restricted diet as the "addicted" cat. That said, I still think that 12% is too much carbs for any cat.

StealthKitty said:

Thank you for this. So a normal homemade raw diet doesn't aim for 12% carbs?

Yes, that study is interesting in some aspects, but I'm not convinced that it's a reliable basis for designing the "ideal" diet for a house cat.

ETA: ...but it is a start.

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Well, as I just pointed out, we need to account for the fact that the study is looking at things on an energy basis, not a dry matter basis.

But some house cats have had a lot of damage done to their systems from years of eating a species-inappropriate diet. And those cats do need something like pumpkin or slippery elm added to the diet to help proper digestive motility.

Carolina said:

I feed pretty much the same diet Laurie feeds, calcium supplemented home made frankerprey. I also give Krill oil as Omega 3, and trim the fat. My Carb percentage is in between 1-2% and no way I would take it to 12%.

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Thanks for this too.

The Plantinga study:

Energy basis macronutrient content: crude protein 52 %, from crude fat 46% and from N-free extract only 2%.
Dry matter basis macronutrient content: crude protein 62.7%, crude fat 22.8%, and carbs 2.8%.


From the Waltham study:

Energy basis macronutrient content: 52% protein, fat 36%, carbs 12%.
They don't provide the DM basis.

StealthKitty said:

The key word here is "addicted." Studies should be done on a sample that's representative of the population in question as a whole. If it's true that the cat population "as a whole" is already addicted to kibble, then yes, this study would not apply to "real world" cats. But if the cat population "as a whole" is not addicted and can make choices that aren't influenced by addiction, then yes, this study would apply to a wide range of cats. I would think that "addicted" cats are the outliers and not representative of cats in general, and that if a cat compulsively eats kibble then it definitely needs a more specialized, controlled diet; but I would not say that all cats must eat the same restricted diet as the "addicted" cat. That said, I still think that 12% is too much carbs for any cat.

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I don't know StealthKitty.... I really don't..... Considering that a LOT of cats, if not the majority are actually fed kibbles only..... That actually represents a large portion of the polulation.
It can be seen when you try giving wet to those cats..... A lot of them will flat out refuse to eat, or eat very little of it, because they have become "addicted" to kibbles. Some cases are more extreme than others, but it happens very often.
It is easier to see when you want to transition that cat to wet or raw, and you have the hardest time to do so.
Kibble addiction is not an unusual thing, on the contrary. it happens, and it happens a lot due to the mentality that cats should be fed one food only day in and day out for long periods of time, and the myth of dry food being better for their teeth, which unfortunately a lot of people and vets still believe on. Convenience, of course plays a large roll.....

LDG said:

Well, as I just pointed out, we need to account for the fact that the study is looking at things on an energy basis, not a dry matter basis.

But some house cats have had a lot of damage done to their systems from years of eating a species-inappropriate diet. And those cats do need something like pumpkin or slippery elm added to the diet to help proper digestive motility.

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You lost me when you started talking about "energy basis" and "dry matter basis." Could you explain the difference?

So pumpkin or slippery elm would make up a certain percentage of the diet of a cat with digestive problems? Not just as an occasional supplement? I ask because I've heard of people giving pumpkin to their cats to help with stool problems, but I guess I figured that it would be given just until the stools became normal.

And, where does the small percentage of carbs come from in the diet you feed your cats? (Sorry if I missed it, I see you mention proteins and fats--including sardine, salmon or krill oil--but still curious about the carbs?)

Carolina said:

StealthKitty said:

The key word here is "addicted." Studies should be done on a sample that's representative of the population in question as a whole. If it's true that the cat population "as a whole" is already addicted to kibble, then yes, this study would not apply to "real world" cats. But if the cat population "as a whole" is not addicted and can make choices that aren't influenced by addiction, then yes, this study would apply to a wide range of cats. I would think that "addicted" cats are the outliers and not representative of cats in general, and that if a cat compulsively eats kibble then it definitely needs a more specialized, controlled diet; but I would not say that all cats must eat the same restricted diet as the "addicted" cat. That said, I still think that 12% is too much carbs for any cat.

Click to expand...

I don't know StealthKitty.... I really don't..... Considering that a LOT of cats, if not the majority are actually fed kibbles only..... That actually represents a large portion of the polulation.
It can be seen when you try giving wet to those cats..... A lot of them will flat out refuse to eat, or eat very little of it, because they have become "addicted" to kibbles. Some cases are more extreme than others, but it happens very often.
It is easier to see when you want to transition that cat to wet or raw, and you have the hardest time to do so.
Kibble addiction is not an unusual thing, on the contrary. it happens, and it happens a lot due to the mentality that cats should be fed one food only day in and day out for long periods of time, and the myth of dry food being better for their teeth, which unfortunately a lot of people and vets still believe on. Convenience, of course plays a large roll.....

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Ah, I see your point. But it should also be taken into account that "addicted to kibble" is not the normal state of a cat; it's a developed condition. (And I wish more people took it as seriously as you do; I completely agree that people need to think harder about what they feed their cats and not base their choice only on "convenience".)

That said, I think this study makes at least one good point--that cats need wet food (and I would love to see more pet foods formulated with a higher percentage of moisture and so it impresses me that a study done by a pet-food manufacturer would reach that conclusion); but then it goes ahead and recommends feeding dry kibble along with the wet, which seemed kind of wishy-washy to me.

I suppose they might have recommended that out of concern that cats might not consume enough "carbohydrate to meet the metabolic demands for glucose required, for example, by the brain," as they state; but, then right after that they say that "the cat appears to be metabolically adapted to meet its glucose requirements on a very low carbohydrate diet, it seems unlikely that the higher carbohydrate intakes seen in the present experiments is the result of cats actively seeking higher carbohydrate intake [...]" I find it confusing that they admit that cats probably don't need to consume high levels of carbohydrates, but then they say to feed your cats (what seems like to me) high levels of carbohydrates.

Developed condition or not, it is the reality of cats out there, you see? And my poit was, These cats won't simply self-regulate when ofered wet and kibbles, because they will mainly, if not always tend to go to kibbles due to their history.
My point was for real world cats, with real world issues, who live in real world homes, and are generally, unfortunately, fed kibbles...... That, unfotunately, is the reality.
Yes, I see that they said to feed wet and dry, and that is a positive point.
But saying that cats will self regulate in a normal environment is a stretch IMHO.

StealthKitty said:

...That said, I still think that 12% is too much carbs for any cat.

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They're talking 12% carbs on an energy basis, not a dry matter basis or "as fed" basis. I don't know how to convert energy-basis to DM basis. I don't think it can be done without at least knowing the ash (mineral) component. :dk: We need mschauer!

Carolina said:

But saying that cats will self regulate in a normal environment is a stretch IMHO.

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I have to agree with this!

I mean - why bother offering a selection of species-inappropriate foods and species-appropriate foods? Why not just feed the species-appropriate food? :lol3:

Carolina said:

Developed condition or not, it is the reality of cats out there, you see? And my poit was, These cats won't simply self-regulate when ofered wet and kibbles, because they will mainly, if not always tend to go to kibbles due to their history.
My point was for real world cats, with real world issues, who live in real world homes, and are generally, unfortunately, fed kibbles...... That, unfotunately, is the reality.
Yes, I see that they said to feed wet and dry, and that is a positive point.
But saying that cats will self regulate in a normal environment is a stretch IMHO.

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Yes, I do see your point. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm sorry if it was annoying.

LDG said:

Carolina said:

But saying that cats will self regulate in a normal environment is a stretch IMHO.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with this!

I mean - why bother offering a selection of species-inappropriate foods and species-appropriate foods? Why not just feed the species-appropriate food?

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Yes! I think we can all agree on this point!

StealthKitty said:

You lost me when you started talking about "energy basis" and "dry matter basis." Could you explain the difference?

So pumpkin or slippery elm would make up a certain percentage of the diet of a cat with digestive problems? Not just as an occasional supplement? I ask because I've heard of people giving pumpkin to their cats to help with stool problems, but I guess I figured that it would be given just until the stools became normal.

And, where does the small percentage of carbs come from in the diet you feed your cats? (Sorry if I missed it, I see you mention proteins and fats--including sardine, salmon or krill oil--but still curious about the carbs?)

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I will speak for myself here.
When feeding raw, constipation generally happens due to the percentage of bone/Calcium in the diet. However, like LDG explained, years of a less than appropriate diet can break havoc in some cats system, and those cats might need some extra help - pumkin and SEB are excellent choices as they work great for either diarrhea or constipation - they help with motility.
In my experience, raw is very healing, and after a while the kitty no longer needs those supplements. I am giving my Bugsy SEB now to aid with Hairballs, in addition to egg Lecithin - he is a Ragdoll with a HUGE amount of fur, and has IBD, so he has a motility problem to begin with. Raw has eliminated his IBD problems and greatly reduced his hairball issues, I am just giving the final help he needs for the hairballs.
On my diet, the Carbs comes from the meat, meat has a bit of carbs, not much, but a little bit.

LDG said:

StealthKitty said:

...That said, I still think that 12% is too much carbs for any cat.

Click to expand...

They're talking 12% carbs on an energy basis, not a dry matter basis or "as fed" basis. I don't know how to convert energy-basis to DM basis. I don't think it can be done without at least knowing the ash (mineral) component.

We need mschauer!

Click to expand...

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm hung up on this "12%" thing; I'm just trying to understand the 52/36/12 ratio in the terms of practical application; and also it seems strange to me that they would say that the macronutrient profile for "free-ranging feral cats" is 52/46/2 but that for a house cat it should be 52/36/12. I suppose the different lifestyles would account for it. I'm just trying to get a more complete picture. Thanks for being open to the discussion!

Carolina said:

I will speak for myself here.
When feeding raw, constipation generally happens due to the percentage of bone/Calcium in the diet. However, like LDG explained, years of a less than appropriate diet can break havoc in some cats system, and those cats might need some extra help - pumkin and SEB are excellent choices as they work great for either diarrhea or constipation - they help with motility.
In my experience, raw is very healing, and after a while the kitty no longer needs those supplements. I am giving my Bugsy SEB now to aid with Hairballs, in addition to egg Lecithin - he is a Ragdoll with a HUGE amount of fur, and has IBD, so he has a motility problem to begin with. Raw has eliminated his IBD problems and greatly reduced his hairball issues, I am just giving the final help he needs for the hairballs.
On my diet, the Carbs comes from the meat, every meat has a bit of carbs, not much, but a little bit.

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Yes! This is answers some of my questions! Thank you!

StealthKitty said:

You lost me when you started talking about "energy basis" and "dry matter basis." Could you explain the difference?

Click to expand...

.

The "guaranteed analysis" you see on the back of a can or bag of cat food is on an "as fed" basis. It includes the water content of the food.

So here's EVO, as an example.

EVO chicken & turkey canned food. The guaranteed analysis shows it is

12% crude protein
8% crude fat
0.5% crude fiber
3.0% ash
78.0% moisture


EVO chicken & turkey dry food. The guaranteed analysis shows it is

50% protein
22% fat
2.0% fiber
10% moisture
It doesn't list ash (but it's typically 7% - 10% in dry food).


They look VERY different, right? But the canned food is 78% water: the kibble is 10% water. To compare the macronutrient content of the food, you need to remove the water. What's left is only the nutrients: the water "dilutes" their percentage in the food "as fed." So remove the water, and the nutrients you're left with are:

EVO canned:

55% protein
36% fat
2% fiber
12% ash


EVO dry:

56% protein
24% fat
2% fiber
9% ash


Now - on an energy basis, fat has (usually) more than twice as many calories as protein. Fiber has none - it's not digested or converted to energy. Carbs - I don't know how carb calories compare to fat or protein calories, and I'm sure it depends on the source. BUT, for the sake of example, if you feed 3 ounces of food, and one ounce is protein, one ounce is fat, 3/4 of an ounce is carbs, and 1/4 of an ounce is fiber.... (assuming carbs have the same calories as protein, which I have NO idea), if the protein had 35 calories per ounce, the fat would be about 80 calories per ounce, and if we're assuming carbs have about the same calories as protein, the carbs are about 26 calories (being just 3/4 of an ounce), then on an energy basis, this food is 24.7% protein, 56.6% fat, and 18.5% carbs.

So looking at food on an energy basis (where the calories are coming from) is very different than looking at it on an as fed (which includes the water) or on a "dry matter" (which is just the nutrients without the water) basis.
.

StealthKitty said:

So pumpkin or slippery elm would make up a certain percentage of the diet of a cat with digestive problems? Not just as an occasional supplement? I ask because I've heard of people giving pumpkin to their cats to help with stool problems, but I guess I figured that it would be given just until the stools became normal.

Click to expand...

Well, in a raw diet you typically control how much water is in the stool with the calcium. Calcium (and fiber) regulate the amount of water available for passing stool. (Ever taken a calcium supplement without magnesium? This causes many people to become constipated). Too much calcium results in a cat being constipated; too little calcium, and the cat will have loose stools. Yet at the same time, cats need a specific calciumhosphorus ratio. Calcium and phosphorus work together, and must be in the correct proportions. So for a cat with a "damaged" GI system, they may become constipated when there's not enough calcium in the diet to balance the amount of phosphorus in the meat. So in a situation like this, a cat may need some kind of fiber supplement in the diet - and sometimes it may be for some time. It's not necessarily forever, because for the most part over time a cat's system will heal. But there will likely be a huge difference between switching a 3-year old cat to raw, and switching a 16-year old cat (that's eaten kibble her entire life, let's say) to raw. That 16- year old kitty may need a teaspoon of pumpkin a day in her food for the rest of her life. Maybe she'll need a teaspoon 2 - 3x a week. Maybe she'll need it daily at first, and then only 2-3x a week after a few months or a year or whatever.
.

StealthKitty said:

And, where does the small percentage of carbs come from in the diet you feed your cats? (Sorry if I missed it, I see you mention proteins and fats--including sardine, salmon or krill oil--but still curious about the carbs?)

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In my diet, I think it comes from the egg yolks.

OK - I was wrong. The discussion of why the cats in the Waltham study ate a higher level of carbs than feral cats was addressed in the new study, not the original one (makes sense - the Plantinga piece was published after the original Waltham study, but before this one. :lol3: ). Basically, they point out the cats may just have tasted the high carb food, rather than avoid it - and being high carb, eating a small amount would skew the results:

...it can be seen that self-selecting cats in all three experiments achieved remarkably similar diet compositions in terms of the proportions of protein, fat and carbohydrate selected when offered very different combinations of wet and dry foods. Whilst not identical, these profiles accord well with the target composition reported previously (52/36/12) for adult domestic cats offered choices of wet foods (Hewson-Hughes et al. 2011; yellow dot in Fig. 7) and provide further evidence of the cats’ ability to regulate their macronutrient intake, even when provided with foods of very different macronutrient and moisture content simultaneously. Hence, achieving this regulatory outcome involved cats eating different amounts and proportions of foods according to nutrient content, not whether wet or dry. This conclusion is supported by simulations which indicated that had the cats eaten a fixed amount from each bowl of food offered, the macronutrient composition of the resulting diet would have been significantly different to the actual compositions selected and the target macronutrient profile.

Interestingly, the macronutrient profile of the diets composed by domestic cats in the present experiments and previously (Hewson-Hughes et al., 2011) are similar to that reported for free-ranging feral cats (52/46/2; Plantinga et al., 2011), indicating that domestic cats have retained the capacity to regulate macronutrient intake to closely match the ‘natural’ diet of their wild ancestors, even though the manufactured foods provided to domestic cats bear little resemblance to the natural foods (e.g. small vertebrate prey). The macronutrient with the biggest discrepancy between our studies and the reported natural diet of feral cats is carbohydrate. Previously we reported that in achieving their target macronutrient intake cats consumed ~8 g/day carbohydrate (Hewson-Hughes et al. 2011), while in the present experiments cats consumed ~13–20 g/day (Table 2). Eisert (2011) calculated that the maximal amount of digestible carbohydrate (from glycogen and gut contents) a cat could derive from consuming (carbohydrate-loaded) rodent prey is ~2.1 g per day.

The prey-based natural diet of a hypercarnivore such as the cat supplies insufficient carbohydrate to meet the metabolic demands for glucose required, for example, by the brain, and this demand for glucose is met by a high capacity for gluconeogenesis from amino acids (Eisert 2011). Since the cat appears to be metabolically adapted to meet its glucose requirements on a very low carbohydrate diet, it seems unlikely that the higher carbohydrate intakes seen in the present experiments is the result of cats actively seeking higher carbohydrate intake, although this cannot be completely discounted. Thus, having a brain that metabolises glucose like any other animal (Eisert 2011) might have encouraged evolution of broader metabolic use of glucose after generations of access to a higher carbohydrate diet through association with humans. This possibility aside, the cats in the naïve and experienced self-selection phases of these experiments were faced with two or more foods that contained at least 24 % of energy from carbohydrate and intake of only relatively small amounts of these foods would obviously lead to increased carbohydrate intake. Of course, it could be argued that if cats do not ‘need’ dietary carbohydrate then they could have completely avoided these foods, but this does not allow for sampling errors or that animals may have an adaptive strategy of actively sampling available foods to assess their nutritional value or potentially toxic nature (Day et al. 1998). Under either scenario (sampling errors or adaptive sampling), ingesting any of a high-carbohydrate diet will boost intake beyond that possible on a rodent-based natural diet. Although no food type was avoided completely, nonetheless, it is interesting to note that the intake of food Da (the dry food with the highest carbohydrate content, 52 % CER) was very low, particularly in the ESS phase, suggesting that cats had learnt to avoid eating this food.

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StealthKitty said:

Thank you for this. So a normal homemade raw diet doesn't aim for 12% carbs?

Yes, that study is interesting in some aspects, but I'm not convinced that it's a reliable basis for designing the "ideal" diet for a house cat.

ETA: ...but it is a start.

Click to expand...

Well having fed my cats just kibble for YEARS, and having transitioned to an all canned diet (specifically targeting high protein, low carbs, no grains) in late 2010, I saw huge improvements in them (and I thought they were thriving before). Then I transitioned to raw in January of this year (2012 still :lol3: ), and again, I saw huge improvements in them. And that was over a year on a canned version of a species-appropriate diet. Four of my cats were 9 when we transitioned, 1 was 8, 1 was 7, 1 was 5 and one was 5 or 6. So I'm going to have to say... yeah, works for our pets. :lol3:

Thank you, LDG! With the help of the people here on TCS, I'm piecing together a picture of feline nutritional needs and this helps.

OK, let me see if I understand:

• The "as fed" basis includes the percentages of everything that composes the food that's being consumed
• The "dry matter" basis is the percentages of just the nutrients without the moisture, since the moisture doesn't contribute nutrients (that is, the nutritional composition of the food consists of, say, 50% protein, 25% fat, 20% carbs and 5% fiber/minerals)
• The "energy basis" is what percentage of calories (energy) each macronutrient is contributing to the calorie total (eg: in 100 grams of a food composed of 33% protein, 33% fat, and 33% carbohydrate, the proteins (4 kcals/gram) contribute 132 kcals, or 23.5% of the total calories, the fat (9 kcals/gram) contributes 297 kcals, or 52.9% of the total, and the carbs (4 kcals/gram) contribute another 132 kcals, or 23.5%, for a total of 561 kcals in 100 grams of food.)

Is that correct?

I've read before about the role of the calcium/phosphorus ratio in digestive process of cats; thank you for explaining what role a supplement like pumpkin would play.

And just to explain, the reason I said the study would be "a start" for designing a diet for cats is because they acknowledge that cats need high protein wet food, but they don't go so far as to recommend a 100% wet diet. I've read experiences here on TCS about how cats improve after switching from kibble to wet to raw, and I am a believer!

Having done a lot of reading about raw diets, I couldn't imagine where 12% carbs would fit in; and if cats truly do self-regulate to consume that 12%, it ought to fit in somewhere (thus the curiosity). It makes much more sense that the carbs they need are the ones they get from the meat (or egg yolks, as the case may be ) and not the ones they would get from kibble made from grains or from other vegetable sources.

I noticed those portions you highlighted, too. Yes, that study has some interesting points. I'm just not convinced about the conclusion that cats ought to be offered both wet and dry food.

StealthKitty said:

They aren't saying that cats have changed their dietary needs; the opposite, in fact. Cats naturally regulate their diets to match the same nutritional requirements that their ancestors had.

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But 12% is a HUGE difference from only 2% in feral cats.
And when raw feeders are giving 0-1% carbs, then what does that mean for them? That veggies now need to be added?
That's what I was saying.


EDIT: andddd of course I should have read the rest of the thread before replying X__X
neverminddddd