2 kittens becoming 1?

catsintaiwan

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Hi All. I'd very much appreciate any advice some of you could offer.

I have two kittens, both were rescued from outside. The girl from a hillside where I go hiking, while the boy was found in the city. Within a day of each other. After quarantining them, they have become fast friends and play fight less every day, and sleep together 70% of the time. They are about 4.5 months old at a guess. I'm aiming to rehome them although I love them. They are healthy and strong.

I have been told by all over here that I should de-sex them. I dislike this as it goes against their reproductive rights, but it's been hard to find good homes for them, so I can see with babies it would be even harder. It's time for him to be cut.

They have two options now-to live in apartments, or I just let them go. Living in a house with a yard outside is impossible-I live in a built up city, and very few people have houses. Actually, I have found a 4 floor house for the girl cat and an apartment for the boy cat. There is a possiblity the house family (with two small children and another older cat) can take him in, but I won't find out for 2 weeks. The apartment has an older boy cat for him to play with.

His personality is very sweet (I guess he was a house kitten) but talks a lot and resents being locked up. He loves sleeping on laps. He is jealous of her being petted, which is annoying because she changes when he is around, becoming more careful or competitive.

As a more feral kitten she is less comfortable being touched, but getting used to it and liking it. She squeaks, not meows. She is reserved but very sweet too. She is super fast and tough. I like her more.

My question is whether I should strive to keep them together, or break them up? Does it matter for them in the long run? Will their close relationship persist as they get older, and after being de-sexed? What should I do, I'm quite confused, and just want to do the best.

If they go to the house, in 3-4 years the children will be full time at school-7am-6pm outside and there will be no one at home. The cats will be 4 years old, prime of their lives, and unable to get outside. If the family only takes her, then she may get bored by herself. At least if he's there she'll have a companion. There is an older cat but they may never be as close as she is now with him.

Thanks!
 

sushi_2286

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LWith the feline overpopulation problem that happens worldwide, I don't think the world is going to miss these kittens' reproductive rights. :) they won't really miss them anyways. Some animals, the instinctive need to reproduce just causes them distress.

As the rescuer of the kitties, it is your prerogative to be picky about their forever homes. If you feel that it would be better for both of them in the long run to go together, you can encourage the family to take them both.

I won't ever have a single cat if I can help it, I believe that there's a social interaction and stimulation that I just can't give them, because I'm not a cat. :)

Let us know what you decide, and how it goes. I wish them a long and happy life. And thanks on their behalf for giving them a fighting chance at a good one!
 

Willowy

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If they're friends, I think they should stay together if at all possible. De-sexing won't change their relationship :). In fact, if they reach sexual maturity, their relationship WILL change, so best for everyone to have it done soon so they can remain "just friends".
 

callista

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I have been told by all over here that I should de-sex them. I dislike this as it goes against their reproductive rights, but it's been hard to find good homes for them, so I can see with babies it would be even harder. It's time for him to be cut.
You can really set your mind at ease about this. Really. You are not going against their rights. :) I've been thinking about this for a while, so this is probably going to be a long and rather philosophical post, so I guess you can skip it if you want; but I think it's important to try to see things from a cat's perspective.

Cats are not like humans. I'm not talking about our being smarter or using language or building cities; those aren't the critical differences in this case--rather, it's how we reproduce that's so significantly different. Humans pair-bond. We find another human being, and when we sleep with them, it's not just a matter of reproduction. It's also for fun and for deepening a romantic relationship. Sex, for humans, is a way to communicate. Our hormonal cycles don't drive us to it; rather, we engage in it through the whole cycle, even when we're not fertile.

But cats are different. For a cat, sex is reproduction only. A queen who goes into heat is driven by her instinct to call for a tom, and the toms are driven by their own instincts to mate with her and possibly fight and kill each other over her. There's no pleasure in it; the queen often has never met the tom, and will not miss him if she never sees him again. That's not heartless--cats aren't heartless. It's just that when a cat mates, its relationship with the other cat doesn't change--they are still strangers if they were strangers before.

For a cat, intimacy is entirely a matter of friendship: Siblings, mother and grown kittens, unrelated adults who have grown up together or gotten to know each other. A particularly nurturing cat who would enjoy having kittens does not need to be fertile to engage in these behaviors. Have you ever visited the The Itty Bitty Kitty Committee blog? This family fosters kittens, and have a permanent cat named Charlene, who has never had kittens--but who mothers every litter of kittens until they are grown and ready to go to forever homes of their own. Charlene is happy and she doesn't need to have kittens which share her DNA to express her natural mothering instinct. Many cats will express such nurturing instincts with their siblings or with other animals in the household--sometimes even with humans, especially human children. When I was a little girl, I bottle-fed an orphaned kitten named Tiger; and when she grew up, she mothered me in turn. She taught me all about what it meant to be a cat, and she didn't need to have a kitten to do it.

In the wild, a cat will have many kittens, and almost all of them will die before they are old enough to have kittens of their own. If the population is staying steady, over her lifetime every cat will have two kittens that survive to reproduce.

In captivity, this changes, because we give a mother cat a safe environment, and almost all of her kittens will survive. An average litter contains four kittens, so even if every female cat ever had only one litter and every cat-loving person adopted as many cats as they could care for, eventually two of those kittens could not find homes. If we don't neuter our cats, then even with the absolute ideal situation, the absolute maximum of cats in loving homes, half of the cats born in the world will not have homes, and will die or become feral.

Here are the facts: There are too many cats. They die on the street; they're put to sleep in shelters. There are not enough homes to go around and there never can be, simply because cats are so prolific. Cats, unlike humans, do not consider mating to be enjoyable; they are simply forced to it in an almost reflexive manner. And cats can be nurturing, have loving relationships with other cats and with members of other species, without ever having had kittens.

When we domesticated the feline species, we took on the responsibility for their well-being. When we neuter a cat, we prevent the birth of inevitably unwanted kittens without having to isolate the cat away from other cats, at the mercy of its instinct to find a cat to mate with. Neutering removes those hormones altogether and leaves the cat free to live the life of a domesticated animal. A male cat gains no social or emotional benefits from mating, and is often harmed by fights. A female cat does enjoy raising kittens if she is the nurturing type--but these benefits, the friendship, caretaking, and emotional closeness, can also be had from relationships other than mother-and-kitten. And the benefit to the kittens can be literally life-saving. Whenever a female cat is spayed rather than allowed to become pregnant, that leaves the spaces in the shelter, or in your home, free for the kittens who were not so lucky, who were not wanted. When your female cat is spayed, you can use that free space in your home to adopt a kitten who was abandoned by someone who wasn't as smart or responsible as you were. And when your male cat is neutered, you can make it possible for the owners of the female cats in your area to similarly keep those spaces open for cats in need.

If cats were not particularly numerous, it would be okay to let them reproduce until we had as many as we wanted--but only until then. Inevitably, because of a cat's reproductive cycle, we are going to run into an overpopulation problem, and if we want to solve it without either letting unwanted cats die young or killing them ourselves, we absolutely have to neuter our pets.
 
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catsintaiwan

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Many thanks for all your replies!

Callista, yes I always read everything someone writes to me-and you've made such an effort. Thanks. It does take a lot to convince me, and you've done that. I don't need to run through the countless permutations or opposing arguments anymore. They will be neutered.

I wonder how the adult male cat will behave compared to now as a kitten. I hope he'll leave her alone more, let her wander around without chasing her and trying to interact-to me he seems a bit needy. I had two female cats as pets when I was young (Yep, some of my feelings about spaying may come from latent guilt). So I've never seen them interact with a male cat, nor seen the behaviour patterns of a male cat. If anyone can give an explanation on that it would help, cheers.

Thanks Sushi_2286 for your reply-I'm doing my best, it's complicated by the fact I must wait for the family to get back to me.

Thanks Willowy, yes I'd prefer they stay together. I can have him desexed immediately, unfortunately, I have to wait till January to have her done, which is complicating things. The reason is the government is subsidising the cost in January. Ideally I'd let him go to the family immediately and give her more attention for 3 weeks, care for her after the op, and then let her go to the family then.
 
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minka

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You can really set your mind at ease about this. Really. You are not going against their rights. :) I've been thinking about this for a while, so this is probably going to be a long and rather philosophical post, so I guess you can skip it if you want; but I think it's important to try to see things from a cat's perspective.

Cats are not like humans. I'm not talking about our being smarter or using language or building cities; those aren't the critical differences in this case--rather, it's how we reproduce that's so significantly different. Humans pair-bond. We find another human being, and when we sleep with them, it's not just a matter of reproduction. It's also for fun and for deepening a romantic relationship. Sex, for humans, is a way to communicate. Our hormonal cycles don't drive us to it; rather, we engage in it through the whole cycle, even when we're not fertile.

But cats are different. For a cat, sex is reproduction only. A queen who goes into heat is driven by her instinct to call for a tom, and the toms are driven by their own instincts to mate with her and possibly fight and kill each other over her. There's no pleasure in it; the queen often has never met the tom, and will not miss him if she never sees him again. That's not heartless--cats aren't heartless. It's just that when a cat mates, its relationship with the other cat doesn't change--they are still strangers if they were strangers before.

For a cat, intimacy is entirely a matter of friendship: Siblings, mother and grown kittens, unrelated adults who have grown up together or gotten to know each other. A particularly nurturing cat who would enjoy having kittens does not need to be fertile to engage in these behaviors. Have you ever visited the The Itty Bitty Kitty Committee blog? This family fosters kittens, and have a permanent cat named Charlene, who has never had kittens--but who mothers every litter of kittens until they are grown and ready to go to forever homes of their own. Charlene is happy and she doesn't need to have kittens which share her DNA to express her natural mothering instinct. Many cats will express such nurturing instincts with their siblings or with other animals in the household--sometimes even with humans, especially human children. When I was a little girl, I bottle-fed an orphaned kitten named Tiger; and when she grew up, she mothered me in turn. She taught me all about what it meant to be a cat, and she didn't need to have a kitten to do it.

In the wild, a cat will have many kittens, and almost all of them will die before they are old enough to have kittens of their own. If the population is staying steady, over her lifetime every cat will have two kittens that survive to reproduce.

In captivity, this changes, because we give a mother cat a safe environment, and almost all of her kittens will survive. An average litter contains four kittens, so even if every female cat ever had only one litter and every cat-loving person adopted as many cats as they could care for, eventually two of those kittens could not find homes. If we don't neuter our cats, then even with the absolute ideal situation, the absolute maximum of cats in loving homes, half of the cats born in the world will not have homes, and will die or become feral.

Here are the facts: There are too many cats. They die on the street; they're put to sleep in shelters. There are not enough homes to go around and there never can be, simply because cats are so prolific. Cats, unlike humans, do not consider mating to be enjoyable; they are simply forced to it in an almost reflexive manner. And cats can be nurturing, have loving relationships with other cats and with members of other species, without ever having had kittens.

When we domesticated the feline species, we took on the responsibility for their well-being. When we neuter a cat, we prevent the birth of inevitably unwanted kittens without having to isolate the cat away from other cats, at the mercy of its instinct to find a cat to mate with. Neutering removes those hormones altogether and leaves the cat free to live the life of a domesticated animal. A male cat gains no social or emotional benefits from mating, and is often harmed by fights. A female cat does enjoy raising kittens if she is the nurturing type--but these benefits, the friendship, caretaking, and emotional closeness, can also be had from relationships other than mother-and-kitten. And the benefit to the kittens can be literally life-saving. Whenever a female cat is spayed rather than allowed to become pregnant, that leaves the spaces in the shelter, or in your home, free for the kittens who were not so lucky, who were not wanted. When your female cat is spayed, you can use that free space in your home to adopt a kitten who was abandoned by someone who wasn't as smart or responsible as you were. And when your male cat is neutered, you can make it possible for the owners of the female cats in your area to similarly keep those spaces open for cats in need.

If cats were not particularly numerous, it would be okay to let them reproduce until we had as many as we wanted--but only until then. Inevitably, because of a cat's reproductive cycle, we are going to run into an overpopulation problem, and if we want to solve it without either letting unwanted cats die young or killing them ourselves, we absolutely have to neuter our pets.
This is the most thoughtful, insightful post on s/n I have ever seen. I just emailed it to myself. Thank you.
 
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callista

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I wonder how the adult male cat will behave compared to now as a kitten. I hope he'll leave her alone more, let her wander around without chasing her and trying to interact-to me he seems a bit needy. I had two female cats as pets when I was young (Yep, some of my feelings about spaying may come from latent guilt). So I've never seen them interact with a male cat, nor seen the behaviour patterns of a male cat. If anyone can give an explanation on that it would help, cheers.
If he tends to be clingy now, he'll probably have the same tendencies later, but as he ages he'll mellow out. They tend to do that, especially the males--when they're young, they'll barely leave your house in one piece, but they settle down as they get older. Not that an active kitten won't grow up to be an active adult--my cat Tiny is a case in point for that; he's still very active and energetic even as an adult. But he has settled down a bit, and is no longer so chaotic about his need for activity. He requests a game of chase, or gets my attention somehow, instead of just getting frustrated and stalking my toes.

Tiny does stalk Christy, my other cat, but that has been getting better over the years. They are now four and eight years old (Christy is older) and they are cordial with each other. Tiny knows to back off if Christy hisses at him, and Christy is more confident about claiming her territory.

When cats have been altered, males tend to be more open to friendships with other males. They don't see each other as dangerous rivals; more as siblings.

Females do tend to rule the roost in most multi-cat homes, but that's not a hard and fast rule. Cats aren't pack animals anyway, and they tend to share dominance in many situations, with cats having spots of their own, or even time-sharing particularly desirable places like a windowsill. My two cats have a shared-dominance sort of arrangement, where Christy gets her favorite places to herself and Tiny chases her only until she gets impatient and ducks into a spot too small for him to follow. If you keep the fur from flying during the initial introduction, most cats tend to learn to tolerate each other's presence. Most will do better than Tiny and Christy, really--both cats are "special needs", with Tiny being a tamed semi-feral and Christy having been taken from a shelter where she had severe anxiety problems. Most cats are more confident than my two scaredy-cats. :)
 
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catsintaiwan

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Thanks Callista, you're an angel. Sounds like you've done wonders with those wee kittens you adopted. My main issue is that whenever Girl (we still haven't chosen names, will leave that to the new family if/when they get permanently homed), whenever she comes to me wanting a pat and cuddle, after 3 minutes (or less) often Boy will come along meowing like "what about me". Girl then stops purring and goes on the defensive. Hopefully in the bigger house of the new family (4 floors) then there will be more times she'd in one room with one child and he's in another room-and she can gain confidence. She grew up on the hillside, so I'm teaching her to become familiar and comfortable with patting and holding. She had 15+ minutes purring and patting the blanket on the sofa while he was sleeping in another room today, so it's increasing daily.

There are many funny things when they play, but the funniest thing must be that she squeaks! She doesn't meow (well maybe she does, I just haven;t heard it for a while). When she wants a pat, I hear this "ee ee ee," and she jumps up on my knee. Never seen a squeaking cat before. Extremely cute.

Yet most times when they sleep they'll be curled up together. I assume from this they are forming a bond that should last a lifetime, and I want to encourage it and make them strong friends before adopting them out. If possible.

 
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whollycat

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Yet most times when they sleep they'll be curled up together. I assume from this they are forming a bond that should last a lifetime, and I want to encourage it and make them strong friends before adopting them out. If possible.
You know, catsinTaiwan, you might just end up doing what I did: When Abby and Tuffy were rescued as wee kittens, I had no kitties. I didn't want any kitties. (Blasphemy to me now!!) I called around to everyone I knew, and no one wanted them both, which was my stipulation, that they both be together. Well, after all the rejection, it dawned on me that NO home but my own would be acceptable. I was smitten. I say all this because why would you want them to bond if they're going to be separated? Kitties grieve losses, so this is something to consider.

Sadly, Abby's brother Tuffy died of CKD when he was only 7-1/2 years old after a 5-1/2 year battle with this crappy disease. Abby is now 16 and I could never imagine my life without him or the short time with his brother. In a way I feel God sent me these two babies--and Tuffy's illness is what prompted me into being a kitty advocate and the reason I do what I do on various kitty forums to help other kitties. And...Abby isn't alone in feline companionship--he has Maxie (Maine Coon) and Izzy (rescued girly) to keep him company. And a forever grateful mama, me.
 
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catsintaiwan

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Thanks Wholly Cat. As much as I do love them, truth is I probably won't be around in this country in 5 years, let alone 10 or 15, and it would be irresponsible of me to keep them. Hence I'm trying to do the right thing and find them a loving home. It's taking longer than I expected.

Immediate order of business: searching online to find ways to stop them playing at 2am-5am, my sleep has been insufficient the last 3 weeks.
 

otto

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The female is very close to her first heat, if not already. Please, get her spayed now. The last thing you want is a litter of kittens to find homes for!

Really, you might as well have them done at the same time.

Spaying and neutering does not change their personalities. What may change their personalities is sexual maturity. The male will become very unhappy unless he can mate. The female will continue to go into heat over and over, until she becomes pregnant. Very unhappy way to live both for the cats and for the humans.

Congratulations on the rescues. They are beautiful cats. I do hope you can find them a home where they can remain together.

PS Play with them every day several times a day, and especially a lively interactive game right before you go to bed. Wearing them out will help you get some sleep. :)
 
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orientalslave

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Since a cat cannot make a concious descision to have kittens or not, they don't in my view have reproductive rights.  Please get both neutered ASAP - the male will get vile-smelling urine and probably spray it round the house if left unneutered, and the female will get pregnant.

Their bond may or may not last their lifetime - sometimes when cats (neutered as well as entire) become socially mature they fall out, plus it can be a lot harder to find a home for two kittens than one.  However at present they will probably be better togeather.
 
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catsintaiwan

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Yep, it's 1am here and she's definitely in heat, she's never vocalized  like this. I spotted him mounting her earlier in a novice fashion earlier in the evening so kept a watch on both and gave them plenty of exercise. Looking like a long night for cats and me-I'm exhausted. Will probably put both in cat boxes and use earplugs. Leaving them in separate rooms will wake the neighbours. :(

Luckily I talked to the family today for the first time (the introducer had been acting as a go-between, but it was dragging way too long so I insisted on getting their number), and they are meeting the cats tomorrow evening. Probably 24 hours too late. Seems they only want one, although I am trying to persuade them to take both.

We cannot afford her op. Very frustrating, and it would have been half price in 3 weeks time. I only have their home telephone number, which makes it troublesome as well.

She's so small! I would never have thought she could go into heat so quickly. Poor kitten.
 
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GoldyCat

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If you can only afford one spay/neuter at a time, have the female spayed first. Males still have sperm in reserve and can impregnate a female up to 4 months after they've been neutered.
 
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catsintaiwan

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thanks for the further replies. I got through the night by making cat pants from an old sock. That meant nothing would happen, and I just let them wander around. He spent most of the night on my bed anyway, probably embarrassed by the body condom he was wearing, and the disdain she looked at him with 


they are both going to the vet today, stay overnight there, both operation tomorrow morning. IT's not expensive since they are strays, and the family taking them will cover the cost. Well, they still haven't decided if they'll take 1 or two, I'm still working on that, but he has a good home to go to in case they just take her.
 

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I wouldn't trust pants and leave them unsupervised, even under supervision it only takes a second for cats to mate and only one mating is needed to fall pregnant.  Best to keep them apart until she is spayed.

I notice you mention leaving the country at some point, cats do travel well so you can always bring them with you. 
 
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catsintaiwan

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Ugh. Quite disappointing, the family only will take 1 kitten since they have an older one already. That is a 4 floor house with nice loving parents and two very young children. :(

I now have to make a decision to split them or keep them longer and look for another home for them.
 

callista

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I think they'd be okay. They're still young--kittens are adaptable. If they were ten-year-olds who had been together all their lives, it might be a different story, but they're still kittens. They'll adjust.
 
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catsintaiwan

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Thanks, but maybe my heart is too soft-I prefer them to stay together. They came to us a day apart and close in age, and have become fast friends. If I'm going to deny reproductive ability I might as well do my best to ensure they are happiest.

I'll try a little harder-printed and laminated some photos and will travel to a tourist town with lots of b&b type places and ask around. I'll also go to some more communities where people have real houses, instead of apartments, and ask there too.
 

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Most research shows that cats are more social than has been claimed.  They gain great comfort from being together and may be more likely to be lonely if left alone too much.  Given that, the important thing is the quality of home they get.  If the best home is a single cat one, don't hesitate to split them up.  If I read your comments right, the male is very clinging and demanding.  He most likely won't change when neutered (which you MUST do, both of them), but he could be even more demanding of attention if he's split up from his friend.  Shelter adoption counselors face this decision all the time.  While I have tried to adopt certain bonded pairs together, I never turned down a good home for one of them.  Also, as someone else posted, separating bonded kittens is much less traumatic than separating bonded adults.  Fix them first and then find them the best home possible, apart if necessary. 
 
 
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