Kibble and Teeth?

bluebo · Nov 26, 2012

I know that people on this forum believe that kibble doesn't help a cat's teeth, BUT then why does my cat's breath smell SIGNIFICANTLY worse since he has been on a 100% wet diet?
He is utd on his vet check ups and just had a dental so why would he have such halitosis on canned food? Of course my vet says its the wet diet and I'm honestly starting to believe it.... his breath didn't stink until I switched his diet. It actually didn't smell at all!
I have been applying this dental gel onto his teeth for about 2 weeks and it doesn't seem to be doing any good. What do I do?

txcatmom · Nov 26, 2012

Here's my opinion.....I'm not an expert of course. I think it is not so much that dry food cleans the teeth, but that wet food clings to the teeth more than dry food. So the claim that dry food does not clean the teeth could indeed be true. And if wet food does cling more to the teeth (as I suppose) then that would explain the poorer dental hygiene you are experiencing.

I think the health benefits of wet food so outweigh dry food that I use wet food anyways. (Actually most of mine are on 50% wet and 50% raw.)

mrblanche · Nov 26, 2012

I've never had a cat with serious tooth problems, and all my cats have eaten mainly dry food. Does that prove either diddly or squat? Nope, just an observation.

I will defer to the researchers on this, who can conduct controlled studies.

bluebo · Nov 26, 2012

mrblanche said:
I've never had a cat with serious tooth problems, and all my cats have eaten mainly dry food. Does that prove either diddly or squat? Nope, just an observation.

I will defer to the researchers on this, who can conduct controlled studies.

I don't know why you are being so rude... I'm genuinely curious why his breath has become so unbearable...?
Can you please point me in the direction of these said studies?

bluebo · Nov 26, 2012

txcatmom said:
Here's my opinion.....I'm not an expert of course. I think it is not so much that dry food cleans the teeth, but that wet food clings to the teeth more than dry food. So the claim that dry food does not clean the teeth could indeed be true. And if wet food does cling more to the teeth (as I suppose) then that would explain the poorer dental hygiene you are experiencing.

I think the health benefits of wet food so outweigh dry food that I use wet food anyways. (Actually most of mine are on 50% wet and 50% raw.)

I wish my boy would eat some raw. At least he would get some dental benefits... *sigh

mrblanche · Nov 26, 2012

bluebo said:
I don't know why you are being so rude... I'm genuinely curious why his breath has become so unbearable...?
Can you please point me in the direction of these said studies?

Rude? You must have read something other than what I meant. I was agreeing with you.

bluebo · Nov 26, 2012

mrblanche said:
Rude? You must have read something other than what I meant. I was agreeing with you.

I'm confused lol. You believe that kibble does help? Sorry if I misread! :lol3:

catwithmycoffee · Nov 27, 2012

Perhaps it's something in the brand of wet cat food?

With my kitties, I have noticed (especially with Sam!) that their breath has an odor when I feed them Fancy Feast. But when I used to feed Natural Life there was hardly any odor at all. And with Sam - who loves giving kisses - his breath would be really foul when I fed them the beef flavor. Not so bad when I feed the chicken flavor, but you can still smell the stinky breath. And I've never observed any wet food clinging to their teeth, either.

I had to switch to the Fancy Feast due to the limited availability of Natural Life in my area. Really wish more stores around here would carry it...

catwithmycoffee · Nov 27, 2012

CatWithMyCoffee said:
Perhaps it's something in the brand of wet cat food?

With my kitties, I have noticed (especially with Sam!) that their breath has an odor when I feed them Fancy Feast. But when I used to feed Natural Life there was hardly any odor at all. And with Sam - who loves giving kisses - his breath would be really foul when I fed them the beef flavor. Not so bad when I feed the chicken flavor, but you can still smell the stinky breath. And I've never observed any wet food clinging to their teeth, either.

I had to switch to the Fancy Feast due to the limited availability of Natural Life in my area. Really wish more stores around here would carry it...

Oh, and I feed both dry and wet food. Dry as their main diet, and the wet as a "treat".

ktlynn · Nov 27, 2012

Dry food doesn't clean teeth. Even the cat food manufacturers who years ago used to make that claim on bags of dry food no longer do.

Dry food is also tough on the kidneys and should be fed sparingly. Using as treats is fine.

Good canned food has lots more moisture and meat in it than dry, which contains lots of carbs. Canned food is much closer to what a cat would eat in the wild as opposed to highly processed dry food.  The bad breath is, in part, from the meat in the canned food breaking down and being digested. Feeding poor quality food can make the problem worse.   But it's mainly due to tartar build-up on the teeth which comes from all types of food. Sometimes the odor can be due to health problems.

The best thing you can do to help alleviate the bad breath is to feed high quality food and brush your cat's teeth.   Getting regular dental cleanings at the vet is very important. In the meantime, there is a fairly new product on the market by Hill's Science Diet called T/D, their answer to Feline Greenies. It's similar to a dry food but the kibble is fairly large and has been made to actually scrape plaque off the teeth when the cat bites into it. Supposedly this has been clinically proven. I'm not a fan of Science Diet products but it might help for tough situations. Keep in mind that each piece of kibble is about 9 calories, so if you make it 25% of your cat's diet (as Hill's suggests) you're likely to end up with a heavy kitty. Better to feed maybe 6 or so per day.

BTW, beware of Feline Greenies for cats.   My dental tech has advised against using that product as she has seen a number of cats with tooth fractures who've eaten them.

ilovemia · Nov 27, 2012

Mia and Mac both had horrible breth when I switched them to wet food and they only ate it for 3 weeks. They are back on dry (they are good drinkers) and the bad breath is gone!

bluebo · Nov 27, 2012

KTLynn said:
Dry food doesn't clean teeth. Even the cat food manufacturers who years ago used to make that claim on bags of dry food no longer do.

Dry food is also tough on the kidneys and should be fed sparingly. Using as treats is fine.

Good canned food has lots more moisture and meat in it than dry, which contains lots of carbs. Canned food is much closer to what a cat would eat in the wild as opposed to highly processed dry food.  The bad breath is, in part, from the meat in the canned food breaking down and being digested. Feeding poor quality food can make the problem worse.   But it's mainly due to tartar build-up on the teeth which comes from all types of food. Sometimes the odor can be due to health problems.

The best thing you can do to help alleviate the bad breath is to feed high quality food and brush your cat's teeth.   Getting regular dental cleanings at the vet is very important. In the meantime, there is a fairly new product on the market by Hill's Science Diet called T/D, their answer to Feline Greenies. It's similar to a dry food but the kibble is fairly large and has been made to actually scrape plaque off the teeth when the cat bites into it. Supposedly this has been clinically proven. I'm not a fan of Science Diet products but it might help for tough situations. Keep in mind that each piece of kibble is about 9 calories, so if you make it 25% of your cat's diet (as Hill's suggests) you're likely to end up with a heavy kitty. Better to feed maybe 6 or so per day.

BTW, beware of Feline Greenies for cats.   My dental tech has advised against using that product as she has seen a number of cats with tooth fractures who've eaten them.

I know about canned being superior to kibble. That is why I switched him to 100% canned.
I can also state my anecdotal experience- that kibble does in fact reduce bad breath significantly.
I find that very hard to believe about the Feline Greenies. A cat's teeth are meant to crunch through bone. Greenies are like kibble... plenty softer then bones.

carolina · Nov 27, 2012

bluebo said:
I know about canned being superior to kibble. That is why I switched him to 100% canned.
I can also state my anecdotal experience- that kibble does in fact reduce bad breath significantly.
I find that very hard to believe about the Feline Greenies. A cat's teeth are meant to crunch through bone. Greenies are like kibble... plenty softer then bones.

The type of bones cats are supposed to eat, raw and small - comparable to their preys, are actually not hard - they are quite pliable actually..... We are not talking about huge cow's bone here.....
I don't know about Greenie's and broken teeth.... anytime I tried them what I got was awful diarrhea so that was a :nono:

. Of course Bugsy has issues.....
Now..... Nothing has kept my kitties teeth as clean as raw, even without bones - their breath is great, and their teeth are quite clean. Cleaner than ever been - on wet or dry. This is one diet I can say has definitely made a difference.

otto · Nov 27, 2012

My cats have always eaten canned diets, and their breath has always been sweet. I would be looking at the ingredients in the wet food you are feeding, perhaps there is an ingredient or ingredients that is causing some digestive upset for your cats.

Bad breath can be caused by stomach/digestive problems as well as dental problems.

Wet food doesn't stick to teeth, it washes down with saliva. Kibble crumbs do stick to teeth, between teeth and under the gumline, and can cause bacteria to grow, leading to tartar, gingivitis and periodontal disease.

Dental health, however, is largely genetic. I have never fed kibble to my cats (with one exception on a "prescription" diet which just about destroyed her digestion) and they all have always had nice sweet breath.

ktlynn · Nov 27, 2012

bluebo said:
I know about canned being superior to kibble. That is why I switched him to 100% canned.
I can also state my anecdotal experience- that kibble does in fact reduce bad breath significantly.
I find that very hard to believe about the Feline Greenies. A cat's teeth are meant to crunch through bone. Greenies are like kibble... plenty softer then bones.

Glad your little guy eats canned - it was good that you improved his diet by making the switch.

As far as the bad breath - I'll take that over kidney problems any day.

My dental tech has been practicing 20+ years. She does dentistry only. The vet practice where she works ( a large emergency hospital) sells Greenies products, so she's not trying to push a competing brand. She regularly attends dental conferences where information is shared and others have reported problems with Feline Greenies as well. Greenies are not like kibble because they are much larger, much more dense and harder than kibble. As Carolina has pointed out, the bones cats would normally eat are soft (relative to other types of bones) and more pliable.

krysta · Nov 27, 2012

Well, I'm a dental hygienist, and I know that at least in people, the action of chewing food actually does help keep the teeth clean. When a patient has a tendency to chew on one side more than the other, the side they do NOT chew with often has tons of calculus (tartar) buildup. It even develops on the actual chewing surface of the teeth, which almost never happens when the teeth are being used. I can usually tell right away if they're not chewing on those teeth. It's the chewing action and friction of the food against the teeth, it helps "disturb" the plaque before it has a chance to harden. So it makes sense to me that the same principle would be true in kitties as well. I would think that the harder foods and/or bones would help reduce the buildup. That said, there are some people who seem to build up calculus really quickly, and others hardly at all, just a difference in mineral content of the saliva. So that could also be true for cats, that some build it up worse than others no matter what. Plaque is made of bacteria that naturally live in the mouth--it would still develop even if you didn't eat at all. But starchy/ high carb foods do feed the bacteria, and they poop acid, which then eats a hole in the tooth, and ta-da--a cavity! So I guess "crunchy" things that are low-carb would be the best balance.

carolina · Nov 27, 2012

Thing is, cats don't really chew kibbles.... Which is why a toothless cat will do just fine eating them. Greenies? Yes, they chew them because they are massive. Give them a chunk of meat? Yes, they chew it. Their teeth are made to rip and tear the meat; they are true carnivore teeth. I feed mine chunks of meat and I can really see the chewing and tearing.... When I fed them Kibbles? Pretty much vacuumed it whole.

otto · Nov 27, 2012

Krysta said:
Well, I'm a dental hygienist, and I know that at least in people, the action of chewing food actually does help keep the teeth clean. When a patient has a tendency to chew on one side more than the other, the side they do NOT chew with often has tons of calculus (tartar) buildup. It even develops on the actual chewing surface of the teeth, which almost never happens when the teeth are being used. I can usually tell right away if they're not chewing on those teeth. It's the chewing action and friction of the food against the teeth, it helps "disturb" the plaque before it has a chance to harden. So it makes sense to me that the same principle would be true in kitties as well. I would think that the harder foods and/or bones would help reduce the buildup. That said, there are some people who seem to build up calculus really quickly, and others hardly at all, just a difference in mineral content of the saliva. So that could also be true for cats, that some build it up worse than others no matter what. Plaque is made of bacteria that naturally live in the mouth--it would still develop even if you didn't eat at all. But starchy/ high carb foods do feed the bacteria, and they poop acid, which then eats a hole in the tooth, and ta-da--a cavity! So I guess "crunchy" things that are low-carb would be the best balance.

Human teeth are WAY different than cat teeth.

It's not a reasonable comparison.

When my cats eat chunks of raw meat, I watch them "chew". The action of their jaws is up and down, they do not grind like humans do.

And the meat is cut and shredded by their very sharp carnivore teeth, not "chewed" as we know it. When they perform this action on meat, the meat rubs against all sides of the teeth, perhaps offering some cleaning action, especially if they are eating something gritty like gizzard, or something that takes a lot of work, like raw bone or cartilage.

When a cat "chews" a kibble, the kibble simply shatters into crumbs. These crumbs get between the teeth and under the gums, and stick there. There is no dental benefit. None.

"Prescription" foods like the Hills t/d supposedly have a different molecular structure that causes them to shatter in a way that "scrapes" the tooth. I remain skeptical of any benefit this provides a carnivore, not to mention all the detrimental reasons such as the fact that it is dry food, the fact that it is full of species inappropriate stuff, such as corn, more corn, and cellulose. And. Because it is kibble.

krysta · Nov 27, 2012

Originally posted by otto:

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]When they perform this action on meat, the meat rubs against all sides of the teeth, perhaps offering some cleaning action, especially if they are eating something gritty like gizzard, or something that takes a lot of work, like raw bone or cartilage..........[/color]When a cat "chews" a kibble, the kibble simply shatters into crumbs.

I see your point on that. For the record, my kitties do eat raw for the most part. Kibble makes up a really small part of their diet. One of mine will eat chunks of meat, the other only ground. I haven't tried any chicken wings or necks or anything on them yet, but I'm working toward it!

I agree with you that the overall benefits of raw or canned outweigh any potential dental benefits of the dry.

bluebo · Nov 27, 2012

I haven't tried the gizzards yet, I totally forgot about them!!! I'm going to buy some the next time I go grocery shopping.
Don't worry guys, I haven't switched him to kibble or anything. It was such a hassle to get him onto canned, I'm NOT going back!
He just can't give me kisses right now *gag* :lol3:

Kibble and Teeth?

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