Which food is the lesser of two evils??

prisma11 said:

Actually there is very, very little science to back up her claims on her site.  

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There's quite a bit of science to back up everything she states on her site. And, in fact, she does provide the reference studies for three of the first four claims she makes. (The only one she doesn't provide a reference for is that cats have a low thirst drive, and their prey is 70-75% water). But our domestic cat pets are descended from desert animals.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/06/070628-cat-ancestor_2.html
http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/repr/add/domesticcat_driscoll2007.pdf


Regarding the macronutrient requirement of cats:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/6/1039.full

Regarding the evolutionary requirements of cats as obligatory carnivores:

http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...7588&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0954422402000070

Regarding the impact of diet on indoor cats:

http://brf.vpweb.com/upload/JAVMA 2011 Nutrition choices - indoor cats.pdf

Regarding a dry diet predisposing cats to urethral obstruction:

Segev G, Livne H, Ranen E et al: Urethral obstruction in cats: predisposing factors, clinical, clinicopathological characteristics and prognosis, J Feline Med Surg 13, 2011. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21145768 Several risk factors were found including age (young adult cats), increased body weight, and consumption of dry food. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21145768

Regarding the problem of excess carbs in the diet:

Funaba, M et al: Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats Am J Vet Res. 2004 Feb;65(2):138-42. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14974568 The study indicated that starch (carbohydrates) and fiber in diets stimulate formation of struvite crystals. "Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation."

Regarding the link between urine acidifiers used in most cat foods and chronic renal failure:

http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1998_vol3.pdf

prisma11 said:

People need to understand that not all dry foods are created equally.  I grant you there are a lot of bad dry foods (and canned too, I would argue) out there that add things like sugars, artificial colours and preservatives, and fillers to their foods, and that are formulated with inappropriate levels of nutrients - all of which are terrible for a cat's health.  Well not all dry foods (or wet foods) are like that.  

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Yet all dry food is... dry food. And all dry and canned food are highly processed foods. And almost all pet foods - there are a few exceptions - are made from the garbage of the garbage of the human food industry. All dry food contains some kind of "meal" - there's no other way to make it. And "meal" is by definition a rendered food, and thus unfit for human consumption. Rendered foods can contain 4D animals, and rendered foods do contain out-of-date garbage from supermarkets, restaurants, etc. - and more importantly, their packaging.

"Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade:Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes"
http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html

The very nature of dry food means that in general it is higher in carbohydrates. There are three exceptions: Nature's Variety, EVO and Wysong's Epigen 90. But in analyzing 48 brands of kibble, I found just THREE that had less than 10% carbohydrates on a DMB basis: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Dry-Kibble-Table-1.pdf (Four, if you include Ziwipeak's air dried raw that is not meant to be rehydrated).

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prisma11 said:

I don't mean to stuff Royal Canin in people's faces... I just don't know any other company that goes to their level (perhaps Hills comes closest).... But if you go really in-depth into their company, you'll find that their food science goes hand-in-hand with the study of the cat's physiology.  

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Actually, they don't seem to consider a cat's physiology at all - or their nature as obligate carnivores. Cats are not designed to digest carbohydrates (they can, but aren't designed to), and they don't downregulate protein metabolism - for which they are designed to ingest animal based proteins. Their fatty acid requirements and lack of ability to utilize plant-based ALA further support this.

MacDonald ML, Rogers QR, Morris JG 1984. Nutrition of the domestic cat, a mammalian carnivore, Annu Rev Nutr 4: 521-562. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6380542

Rogers QR, Morris JG, Freedland RA 1977. Lack of hepatic enzymatic adaption to low and high levels of dietary protein in the adult cat, Enzyme 22(5): 348-356. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19238?dopt=Abstract

Green et al. 2008 Cats are able to adapt protein oxidation to protein intake provided their requirement for dietary protein is met, J. Nutr. 138(6): 1053-1060. http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/6/1053.long

A referenced piece, not a journal study:

"The Essential PUFA Guide For Dogs And Cats"
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml

And another referenced piece, written by a small animal endocrinologist:

"Can Increasing the Amount of Fat or Carbohydrate in a Cat's Diet Compensate for Low Protein Intake?"
http://endocrinevet.blogspot.no/sea...0-05:00&max-results=20&start=14&by-date=false


Bluebo, hope you don't mind the studies supporting the reasons you switched to canned food from dry. :rub:

I never used royal canin i read up on it since i been thinking about buying some<price issues i think both is about is about the same you can buy both bags and mix it together

Carolina said:

Bluebo, this is my concern for Bo
I think it is a very risky step to take, even if you offer him just a little bit of kibbles (which would do nothing for his teeth anyways), you would risk him going off wet for good.
I think a couple chicken wings a week (or even once a week) would be far more effective and far, far less risky :nod: Chicken wings not only have the bones, but the meat has the enzymes that work on keeping the teeth clean as he chews it.....
We are not talking about a raw diet here...... But something just for the dental benefits of it..... Just my honest opinion.....

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Carolina-- I have decided to continue Bo on a 100% wet diet! I have made far too much progress and he is doing wonderfully and having spurts of energy that he's never had before.
I bought him some dental gel and also some chicken wings. I will be using them to "brush" his teeth from now on!
I should have titled the thread differently like- "alternative to vet dentals" or something similar. I really, REALLY don't want him back on kibble. His bowels are functioning so much better on wet.
HEY! Maybe these chicken wings are my first step to an all raw diet! And the plot thickens... lol

prisma11 said:

I looked thoroughly at the catinfo.org website and I am still far from convinced that feeding any dry food is evil.  I won't deny that canned food is great too if it's a good quality, and if your cat likes it (mine never really cared for it, and I see that as perfectly ok).  I am not wholly against raw feeding, although I have never considered trying it, mostly because I see no need to, but I think if done properly and for the right cats, there is no harm in it and it can be healthy.  I certainly do not believe that it is a cure-all or preventative against all diseases.

But I have major issues with this website, and others like it that I have seen.  The creator is ONE veterinarian (at least she is that) who has a love of cats, and a "passion" for cat nutrition and health.  As far as I can see, she has gone through veterinary school, done a lot of cat rescue work and helped very needy kitties (which is very admirable, don't get me wrong), talked to a person or two, read a few articles... and suddenly she is qualified to decide what the best food is for everyone's cats?  She has had no formal nutrition training or additional medicine credentials.  "Common sense" is her motto - which when I last checked was not science.  Actually there is very, very little science to back up her claims on her site.  No references, except an article that doesn't nearly support all the info she has put out on her site.  Some of her information is correct, other stuff is totally bogus or skewed.  This site, and most people who oppose dry food, will completely generalize dry food.  But there are such vast variations in dry foods, that to make blanket statements about all dry food is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

People need to understand that not all dry foods are created equally.  I grant you there are a lot of bad dry foods (and canned too, I would argue) out there that add things like sugars, artificial colours and preservatives, and fillers to their foods, and that are formulated with inappropriate levels of nutrients - all of which are terrible for a cat's health.  Well not all dry foods (or wet foods) are like that.  

I don't mean to stuff Royal Canin in people's faces... I just don't know any other company that goes to their level (perhaps Hills comes closest).... But if you go really in-depth into their company, you'll find that their food science goes hand-in-hand with the study of the cat's physiology.  The pet's needs are at the heart of their research, and they base their foods only based on their real needs.  They do a ton of research on things like growth, urinary crystals, diabetes, obesity, renal disease, cancer, etc, and they test their foods to make sure their diets are benefiting pets as much as possible.  They are a global company that employs thousands of veterinarians, nutritionists, and other scientists - many of them more educated in nutrition than "Dr. Pierson, D.V.M." - and many, I'm sure, just as passionate about pets as she is, as most people in veterinary medicine and nutrition are.  Royal Canin does more studies and publishes more peer-reviewed material on pet nutrition than any other pet company out there.  They work with clinics and fund university research programs to do things like test hundreds of thousands of urinary crystals to determine their compositions so they can better learn how to prevent and treat them.  They work with kennels and catteries to ensure that their diets are creating urine with low relative supersaturation - and even do studies comparing the efficacy of dry and wet diets.  The cost and time put into all this I'm sure must be tremendous.  But their research is what makes them, in my opinion, the best of pet foods, and it is for that reason that I trust their food.  

In response to Carolina... Interesting indeed.... especially because I am almost certain that Royal Canin has never had a vegetarian cat food... if you could find me info on that diet I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.  

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Your comment about Hills concerns me... they are about the LAST brand I would ever feed my pets.

bluebo said:

Carolina-- I have decided to continue Bo on a 100% wet diet! I have made far too much progress and he is doing wonderfully and having spurts of energy that he's never had before.
I bought him some dental gel and also some chicken wings. I will be using them to "brush" his teeth from now on!
I should have titled the thread differently like- "alternative to vet dentals" or something similar. I really, REALLY don't want him back on kibble. His bowels are functioning so much better on wet.
HEY! Maybe these chicken wings are my first step to an all raw diet! And the plot thickens... lol

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Oh Bluebo, I am SO glad!!! You are definitely making the right decision for Bo :bigthumb: You worked so hard and you both have come so far! Congratulations on yet another very wise decision! :rub:

bluebo said:

Your comment about Hills concerns me... they are about the LAST brand I would ever feed my pets.

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I NEVER FEED HILLS MY CATS GET SICK FROM IT and 9lives sucks to every time i take my cats whent previous A**  vet i ask them what are you going to feed they say hills i say NOOOOOOO YOU ARE NOT i tried handing them my brand they just throw it away and feed hills i know when they feed hills when the cat comes back all bloated vomiting and having bad stool and wont eat and every time i say don't feed my cats they feed them hills anyway i call them the next day of pick up and start yelling at them or feeding them hills my new vet wont feed them if i dont hand them my food and yes they feed my brand when i hand them my brand my brand half opened can and a happy cat hahah when i get my cat on pick up day

^^ i think my garmmer is off owell

YOU GUYS!!! I just tossed him the chicken wing with a little bit of Merricks canned food juice drizzled on! BO IS EATING IT! I can't believe how excited I am!

bluebo said:

YOU GUYS!!! I just tossed him the chicken wing with a little bit of Merricks canned food juice drizzled on! BO IS EATING IT! I can't believe how excited I am!

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Go Bo!

LDG said:

Personally, I'd skip the kibble and go for annual dentals.
Did you ask the vet how much kibble needs to be fed to provide dental benefit? One of our kitties had to have a tooth removed at age 1 - she just has bad genes that way. She's 10 now and had 3 or 4 extractions. Because of her plaque build-up issues, she gets dentals every six months, as does our FIV+ kitty that has gum/tooth issues. At some point along the way, Hill's Pet came out with their t/d kibble. But the vet said that for it to do anything, it has to be fed full time. So before you provide any dental kibble, make sure that the "very small amount" will provide the benefit you seek.

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Ohhhh... not me!  I would prefer to never have dentals done and none of mine have ever needed one.  I hear too many stories of bad experiences with those dentals.  My cats only get about 10% kibble with 90% wet as their diet.  All of them get feline Greenies every day and knock on wood... all the choppers are in good shape.  I tried to give them raw chicken bones once but they all turned their noses up it

bluebo said:

Carolina-- I have decided to continue Bo on a 100% wet diet! I have made far too much progress and he is doing wonderfully and having spurts of energy that he's never had before.
I bought him some dental gel and also some chicken wings. I will be using them to "brush" his teeth from now on!
I should have titled the thread differently like- "alternative to vet dentals" or something similar. I really, REALLY don't want him back on kibble. His bowels are functioning so much better on wet.
HEY! Maybe these chicken wings are my first step to an all raw diet! And the plot thickens... lol

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Personally I think your decision to stay on the wet diet is a sound one.  So far I've been able to avoid the dentals and really, really don't want to put my furkids through that.  I can't get mine to eat bones or wings.  I mean they refuse to even sniff at them.  So far the feline Greenies treats seem to be doing their job.  Maybe it's the small amount of kibble they graze during the day.  I dunno, just glad we have good choppers here

NutroMike said:

Ohhhh... not me!  I would prefer to never have dentals done and none of mine have ever needed one.  I hear too many stories of bad experiences with those dentals.  My cats only get about 10% kibble with 90% wet as their diet.  All of them get feline Greenies every day and knock on wood... all the choppers are in good shape.  I tried to give them raw chicken bones once but they all turned their noses up it :teeth:

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Do be careful with that Mike.... I would make sure to get them to the dentist or a good dental at least now that they are older..... If you chose not to do it once a year, fine, but no food, no treats will remove the plaque underneath the gum line. Periodontal disease is linked to CRF, and can also affect the liver and heart - it can get dangerous and it is something that can be prevented, but only a dentist can do it. Anesthesia used to be much more dangerous in the past, but it is not the case anymore, not for healthy animals anyway..... I have had many conversations with several vets, both traditional and holistic about it, and all told me the same thing. The risks are very very small - much smaller than not having dental care.
Bugsy has dentals every year because of his stomatitis, hopefully now that he is on raw he is not going to need as often - I just took him to the vet and his mouth is the best it has ever been, even being off meds..... So :cross: things will change! Hope's first dental was at 5, and Lucky's at 4.....

Yikes what a lot of attacks towards my posts and a lot of hostile contempt towards these companies!  How do I begin to reply?  I could say a lot in defence of these so called terrible ingredients everyone names, and tell you that it's the nutrients that come from the ingredients, not the ingredients themselves, that ultimately are being used by your cat's body, and therefore what are ultimately important in any food.  It doesn't matter which sources the nutrients come from (meat, veggies, grains or supplements), as long as they are in the right amounts and are being digested by the cat.  Many studies have shown, for example, that some plant proteins are very highly digestible in cats and contain many amino acids and other nutrients that are very beneficial to their health.  In the case of the hypoallergenic diet you referenced (which does contain fats from animals and so is not vegetarian), it is very useful in managing severe IBD and food allergies in cats.  Look at the reviews on the link you provided and others, and you will see that this diet can be very effective (although of course it's not going to work for every  cat):  http://reviews.petfooddirect.com/pr...Feline-Hypoallergenic-HP-23-Dry-Cat-Food.html.  You can go ahead and judge it by reading the ingredient list alone, but that doesn't tell you all you need to know about the nutrients that your cat is getting through that food.  You can see, though, that although there is no meat-based protein, the essential amino acids that are not provided in the protein sources (like taurine) are being supplemented.  I'm sure you realize that this food wasn't made for the purpose of feeding perfectly healthy cats with no food allergies.  It is meant for pretty extreme cases, where a food like this might be needed in order for certain cats to live a quality life.  

As for water consumption, which seems to be the biggest argument against dry food in general, I can tell you that my cats never eat wet or raw, but they do consume a lot of water.  The food they eat is meant to increase their thirst and water intake, and it works.  

But I feel like I am wasting my time trying to convince people here.  It is pretty clear there is no room on this forum for different opinions about pet nutrition, however well-founded they may be, so I won't waste my time trying to explain more.  If I did, I could see myself typing away frustratedly for days...  the lack of accurate information put forward by people here frustrates me so much!!  

All I have left to say is, if so many cats being fed Royal Canin are living long, very healthy lives, the science behind that food is indisputably working.  There is no proof other than in the results.  And if anyone here is actually wondering about feeding Royal Canin, I'd encourage you to find out accurate information about them (try through their website for starters, not google or forums) before passing judgement on a food that could be helping your pet.

Also, Carolina - I don't, but I'm sure I'd love to.

And to stir the pot further...

I know people that have cats over 20 years old that eat nothing but Purina Cat Chow. A lot of it is genetics and a lot is luck. My grandmother lived to be 102 years old smoking, drinking Coca Cola, and going through a pound of butter every day. And I know of health 'nuts' that died in their 30's. The arguments for a quality diet is certainly compelling but the Purina Cat Chow stories throw a wrench in the works. I don't know how much of a difference a high quality food makes or wet vs. dry matters, what counts is that we feel we are doing the best thing for our cats. 

One of our rescue babies was stuck in New Orleans during Katrina when the water rose and stayed for three weeks. My good-hearted neighbor snuck in every few days with a 20 lb bag of Purina and dumped it on the porch. Each time he went back, it was completely gone. Did it save our cat and many others stranded? Yes. I can't tell how grateful I was he did that. I still can't figure out what she did for water other than drink the flood water (ech!). And our rescue baby is still with us 7 years later.

prisma11 said:

  I'm sure you realize that this food wasn't made for the purpose of feeding perfectly healthy cats with no food allergies.  It is meant for pretty extreme cases, where a food like this might be needed in order for certain cats to live a quality life.  

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I'm new to all of this, but from what I've read on these forums, no one is against feeding a cat prescription kibble when there is a medical reason for it. However, as you said:

Originally Posted by prisma11

There is no proof other than in the results.

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Many people here are feeding their cats wet or raw diets after doing the research and switching them from dry food, and they can testify about the good results.

Do certain cats live long lives eating nothing but kibble? Of course. But there is no reason to get frustrated when people who have given it thought, did the research, and then worked with their cats to switch diets disagree about the merits of whatever brand of cat food.

Are you a veterinary student?

StealthKitty said:

I'm new to all of this, but from what I've read on these forums, no one is against feeding a cat prescription kibble when there is a medical reason for it. However, as you said:

Many people here are feeding their cats wet or raw diets after doing the research and switching them from dry food, and they can testify about the good results.

Do certain cats live long lives eating nothing but kibble? Of course. But there is no reason to get frustrated when people who have given it thought, did the research, and then worked with their cats to switch diets disagree about the merits of whatever brand of cat food.

Are you a veterinary student?

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can we just say some cats do better on a certein brand or diet then others i seen were maine coons cant handle maine coon cat food but they can handle other stuff   and cats with example kidney or thyroid problems and can't handle there food made for the problem but can handle other diets and or they can only handle the food mad for there problem i guess it depends on the animal

Mewlittle said:

can we just say some cats do better on a certein brand or diet then others

i guess it depends on the animal

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That's how I see it. It's up to each owner to know the needs of their pet and provide an appropriate diet. If that diet is a specific kind of kibble for a valid reason, and the owner is feeding the cat responsibly, great. If a cat's well-being improves on a wet or raw diet and the owner is feeding it responsibly, great. So why all the fuss? No one should be "bashing" the diet that a responsible pet owner is providing, especially if that diet was chosen after researching it, giving it thought, and taking into consideration the needs of the pet. Which, I understand, was the OP's intent in starting this thread.

StealthKitty said:

That's how I see it. It's up to each owner to know the needs of their pet and provide an appropriate diet. If that diet is a specific kind of kibble for a valid reason, and the owner is feeding the cat responsibly, great. If a cat's well-being improves on a wet or raw diet and the owner is feeding it responsibly, great. So why all the fuss? No one should be "bashing" the diet that a responsible pet owner is providing, especially if that diet was chosen after researching it, giving it thought, and taking into consideration the needs of the pet. Which, I understand, was the OP's intent in starting this thread.

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its up to pet and owner but can i say something in my choice i will never feed iams or 9lives or meow mix again i got my reasons not basing any one else for feeding it iams abuse animals for there reashearch 9lives in my experince gave my cat worms and meow mix almost killed my cat

Andrya said:

lt takes a while, and l haven't perfected it yet, l'm just hoping that it helps. You can buy a little cat brush and meat-flavoured toothpaste in a starter kit. l watched a video that said to just let them eat the toothpaste at first till they started enjoying it, then over weeks start moving the brush. l only do the outsides of the teeth and only as long as they'll let me, but it's better than nothing.

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What I found works really well for 'brushing' is a small piece of gauze wrapped around my finger, with or without enzymatic toothpaste.  I would imagine a very dilute hydrogen peroxide and water combo would work well, I use to use a q-tip to apply a dilute solution to Toby's  gingivitis infected gums and he did not complain at all. My cats accept the gauze much better than a brush.  And chicken wings that are simply rinsed off and fed raw are what I am now feeding my 13 yo with multiple missing teeth.  He loves them.

StealthKitty said:

I'm new to all of this, but from what I've read on these forums, no one is against feeding a cat prescription kibble when there is a medical reason for it. However, as you said:

Many people here are feeding their cats wet or raw diets after doing the research and switching them from dry food, and they can testify about the good results.

Do certain cats live long lives eating nothing but kibble? Of course. But there is no reason to get frustrated when people who have given it thought, did the research, and then worked with their cats to switch diets disagree about the merits of whatever brand of cat food.

Are you a veterinary student?

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I'm not a vet student, but I have a friend that works at the U of Guelph urolith centre (NOT for Royal Canin) that got me really interested in the brand because they seemed like they really did their research.  Since then I've done a lot of reading into the company and talked to people (including a breeder) that feed RC, and I decided to start feeding it to my cats about 3 years ago.  That is all my background with RC.  I myself work in the human health food industry, if people really need to know.  

It definitely seemed that the poster was quite opposed to the hypo diet in general. I'm not sure why pp thought it necessary to bring up, since it wasn't quite in line with the discussion.

I never intended to deny that wet or raw feeding doesn't produce good results if done right - as I said in a previous post.  Obviously if you are having great success with it and continue to, great, that is the important thing, and I will not argue with that.  The point I am making is that not all dry kibble is causing health problems, because in fact some unique brands are making wet and dry foods that are helping solve many health problems.  I can attest to their good results from experience, feeding Royal Canin to my own cats, and knowing people that have been feeding it to their cats and dogs for years with no issues.  A couple of them are even feeding rx diets for health conditions (urinary crystals and arthritis), and their pets are in great health.

I agree with others that say that what brand/type of food you feed is a choice, and owners should be well-informed and feel comfortable with whatever choice they make.  I do respect OP's choice to feed wet if they think it's better and if their cat does well on it.  But they asked the question as to what people thought about those two dental foods in terms of dental benefits, and I offered what I thought about them.  I do believe these kibble help reduce tartar and gingivitis, and I also think that those foods can be fed without worry of negative consequences to cats' health.  If good dental health was the goal for the their cat, then this food would be a good choice.  If they want to go about doing that by feeding bones or whatever else works for them, so be it. I was merely expressing - and defending - my opinion on the food they asked about.  People can choose what they like - that is not what frustrates me.  What is frustrating to me is when people attack a food or brand without properly researching the particular food in question, but instead throw out arguments and studies against "dry food" in general.  I still hold that not all dry (or wet) foods are equal - some are crap, others are awesome, and you can't know unless you look deeper into the individual company.

bluebo said:

YOU GUYS!!! I just tossed him the chicken wing with a little bit of Merricks canned food juice drizzled on! BO IS EATING IT! I can't believe how excited I am!

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Carolina said:

Go Bo!

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Bluebo, that's great! :bigthumb:

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And well said, Stealthkitty. :nod:
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prisma11 said:

...But I feel like I am wasting my time trying to convince people here.  It is pretty clear there is no room on this forum for different opinions about pet nutrition, however well-founded they may be, so I won't waste my time trying to explain more.  If I did, I could see myself typing away frustratedly for days...  the lack of accurate information put forward by people here frustrates me so much!!  

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I understand from your post that you're not interested in taking the time, but I'm curious about your comment about the lack of accurate information. It's not at all clear to me which information is inaccurate?

I was thinking about this last night. (It's something I enjoy thinking about and researching, because I'm interested in cat nutrition in general). And this post addresses what - for me - the issue is.
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prisma11 said:

I could say a lot in defence of these so called terrible ingredients everyone names, and tell you that it's the nutrients that come from the ingredients, not the ingredients themselves, that ultimately are being used by your cat's body, and therefore what are ultimately important in any food. It doesn't matter which sources the nutrients come from (meat, veggies, grains or supplements), as long as they are in the right amounts and are being digested by the cat.

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This is the basis of a very fundamental difference in philosophy. :nod:

I don't know of any people that eat one food at each meal, day-in, day-out. Our meals are not expected to be nutritionally balanced at each meal. It is recommended that we eat a certain amount of fresh meat, fruits, veggies and carbs at each meal. But to equate a human diet to what many feed their cats, feeding one type of dry food to a cat is akin to eating one cereal, without milk, every day at every meal, and taking a vitamin supplement to make that meal "complete and balanced." The science of nutrition and supplementation has come a long way, no doubt. But what's better for me? A highly processed cereal and supplements, or eggs, meat, fruit, vegetables, whole grain bread, etc.?

IMO, the ingredients themselves do make a difference, and I see it in my cats. As you say, there is no proof other than in the results. If you've never fed an all wet diet, especially one with no grains or fillers, or you've never fed a high (animal-based) protein, low carb diet to your cats, you have no personal experience to inform your opinion. :dk:

I fed my cats Hill's Pet c/d (urinary health prescription food) dry food, free fed, for many years. They seemed to be doing really well on it - beautiful coats, healthy, no further blockage/crystal problems. Yet when I switched to an all wet food diet that was high protein, low carb, I saw a noticeable and dramatic improvement in their energy, their behavior, and their coats. I developed an interest in feline nutrition at that point, and did a lot of research. I argued against raw in this forum - and in conducting research on the topic, I ended up decided that it would be healthier for my cats to eat raw. I made the switch in January of this year, and even though they were already on a high protein all wet food diet, again, the change was rapid and dramatic. So yes, I'm passionate about what and how I feed my cats. But it is this very experience that supports the conclusion of all that research. And I have to agree with Dr. Pierson: sometimes common sense is a good starting point. And cats are obligate carnivores with such a specialized physiology that it makes sense that they do best on a diet based primarily in animal protein.

As a person, I prefer to eat fresh fruits and vegetables, not canned. As a person, I prefer to eat whole grain bread and rice. If I see the benefit of this diet in myself, why doesn't it make sense that I should see the same benefit in my cats eating their equivalent of a fresh, whole food diet in the package that they eat naturally in the wild?

Yes, many cats "do well" on dry food, and I'm glad your kitties are doing well on RC. But as Bluebo and others are finding, they do even better on moist food, despite how much water they drank while on dry.

Yes, there are many studies about how cats derive energy from carbohydrates. Yes there are many studies about how they can utilize corn or peas as a source of protein. But this doesn't mean that these ingredients and sources of nutrition are ideal for their well-being.

Having fed an all dry diet, and having fed an all wet diet, I am someone that believes that it doesn't make a difference as to the ingredients in the dry, that the "science" of what goes into the food doesn't matter. Perhaps if I'd switched to one of the high protein, grain-free, low carbohydrate, limited ingredient dry foods, I would feel differently. But that isn't Royal Canin. They may conduct and publish a lot of research. But their foods are not formulated to consider the research indicating the optimum macronutrient profile of food for cats. :dk:

With Bluebo having just transitioned her cat to an all wet diet, I see providing any "dental kibble" as a step backwards, especially when there are alternatives.