Which food is the lesser of two evils??

I saw some improvement during the time Matt used CET...he really had to work to break them down, and they are smoother and more solid than your greenies, or whiskas dentals. I won't speak for whether Greenies work or not, Matt likes them, but they didn't seem to help his teeth any. Maybe it depends on the cat and level of plaque. I'd still rather use them than nothing though

If you want her to lose weight, a wet diet is a good way to go....I have Matt on Wellness, as it's pretty filling(though 329/can might not suit evreyone's budget) for cheaper wet there's California natural and holistic Select at about 249/13oz can. I feed 1 can over 3 days with just a little kibble on the side to top him up to his reccommended calories. 1/8th-1/4cup depending on the kcal of your kibble. I have brought Matt down about a lb over 2months this way

I hear people are dieting their cats on Fancy feast too, and having great success.........you may want to check the nutrition forum to see if you can find information on how they're doing that     Good luck

I honestly don't believe that you are choosing between evils either way.  Royal Canin is a good food.  I think both of the foods you mentioned would be a good choice if you're looking for real dental benefits.  But I noticed you were looking at the old Dental food - they have recently updated this formula.  The updated Dental food now also has the VOHC seal of approval, which means that studies (done independently of Royal Canin) have proven its effectiveness.  

New link:  http://www.royalcanin.ca/index.php/...ne-Nutrition/Veterinary-Care-Nutrition/Dental.

VOHC website:  http://www.vohc.org/history.htm

Both of those foods have a specific kibble shape and density/texture to promote chewing, and to gently "brush" teeth when cats bite into it (it is not so abrasive that it "scrapes" the enamel off the cat's teeth - that would be very bad for sure).  I think the kibble has more "resistance" to it so it doesn't crumble apart so easily as most dry foods.  But not only that, it has a special ingredient called sodium tripolyphosphate (just phosphorus and sodium) that prevents calcium from binding to the cat's teeth (calcium is what causes tartar formation).  So eliminating the calcium buildup will prevent plaque and tartar from forming in the first place.

I agree that in order for the food to make any difference, you need to feed it regularly, which means treats are likely not going to be so effective as food.  Of course, brushing is likely the best option, but I would never be able to brush my cats' teeth either!!!

Prisma11, do you work for Royal Canin?

I merely am an ardent believer in their science.  I think they are different from other companies.

Thanks for replying.

Yes, feeding dry food is a personal and lifestyle choice, but feeding a wet-only diet to a cat is based on the science of cat physiology. Some are more interested in feeding a species-appropriate diet than the "science" of a cat food.

FYI, Bluebo worked very hard to transition her kitty off of kibble onto a wet food only diet, and she'd prefer not to take that step backwards. If you want to learn more about the wet vs dry issue in cats, Dr. Pierson's site might be interesting for you. http://www.catinfo.org

i have read that dry food, or really any hard food at all, does nothing for a cats teeth, because they dont bite the food much. that the best thing is to brush their teeth every other day, or feeding them a raw chicken wing. lol

You're right. :nod: Either they don't really chew it, or it just shatters. That's why IF someone wants to use dry food for dental health, it has to be specially formulated to work.

Honestly if the ingredients were better I might try it but the ingredients are scary... wheat gluten- my daughter is an omnivore and SHE is sensitive to gluten... wouldn't a carnivore be?

I too would try feeding your cat a meaty raw bone.  Perhaps from a cornish hen or rabbit.

Ritz had her first dental (gingivitus) at 2 years of age.  I started feeding Raw shortly thereafter.  It's not a cure-all but I think it will certainly delay another dental cleaning.  And yeah, Ritz would meow not only NO but HECK No were I try to brush her teeth.

prisma11 said:

I merely am an ardent believer in their science.  I think they are different from other companies.

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Interesting....
The food I fed to my cat from RC was a food that interestingly enough had NO meat - absolutely not a gram of meat. 100% vegetarian.
I am not sure what science would be behind that, when cats are Obligate carnivores.

The only thing that it did to my cat was add a terrible amount of pounds to him it didn't help one bit. And that was their prescription, expensive, veterinarian line to make matters worst......
Nothing against everyone having their own beliefs, but I just thought it was an interesting remark "an ardent believer in their science" when they are a company that produces vegetarian foods for obligate carnivores......

LDG said:

FYI, Bluebo worked very hard to transition her kitty off of kibble onto a wet food only diet, and she'd prefer not to take that step backwards.

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Bluebo, this is my concern for Bo
I think it is a very risky step to take, even if you offer him just a little bit of kibbles (which would do nothing for his teeth anyways), you would risk him going off wet for good.

I think a couple chicken wings a week (or even once a week) would be far more effective and far, far less risky :nod: Chicken wings not only have the bones, but the meat has the enzymes that work on keeping the teeth clean as he chews it.....
We are not talking about a raw diet here...... But something just for the dental benefits of it..... Just my honest opinion.....

I'm not sure an older cat will learn how to chomp bones, at least not very quickly. My cats still haven't figured out bones. I gave them wings last night and this morning there were clean bones all around the cat room :lol3:. And several of mine are young adventurous kitties who love raw. So an older kibble addict. . .maybe not. Although I'm sure just eating the meat off the bone has to have some dental benefit. I wonder if he'd like gizzards? Not as good as wing bones but gritty enough to have some benefit, I think.

You could dip the wings/gizzards in boiling water (very quickly, enough to kill surface germs but not enough to cook it) if you're concerned about that.

Willowy, Bo's issue earlier when Bluebo tried to feed him raw was that he only liked the bone-in meals. So I think he's good on the bone chomping.

Oh, that's right--I can't keep everybody straight! :lol3: In that case, yeah, a wing once or twice a week ought to do the job. And, like I said, if bacteria is a concern (if I'm thinking of the right poster this time :tongue2, dipping it in boiling water to kill surface bacteria should take of that--there isn't any bacteria inside fresh meat, just on the surface.

Willowy said:

You could dip the wings/gizzards in boiling water (very quickly, enough to kill surface germs but not enough to cook it) if you're concerned about that.

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Great point - and excellent on suggesting the gizzards. Bo also had an issue with constipation - so using the gizzards for the chewing would keep the calcium content low, yet give him the dental benefit.

I looked thoroughly at the catinfo.org website and I am still far from convinced that feeding any dry food is evil.  I won't deny that canned food is great too if it's a good quality, and if your cat likes it (mine never really cared for it, and I see that as perfectly ok).  I am not wholly against raw feeding, although I have never considered trying it, mostly because I see no need to, but I think if done properly and for the right cats, there is no harm in it and it can be healthy.  I certainly do not believe that it is a cure-all or preventative against all diseases.

But I have major issues with this website, and others like it that I have seen.  The creator is ONE veterinarian (at least she is that) who has a love of cats, and a "passion" for cat nutrition and health.  As far as I can see, she has gone through veterinary school, done a lot of cat rescue work and helped very needy kitties (which is very admirable, don't get me wrong), talked to a person or two, read a few articles... and suddenly she is qualified to decide what the best food is for everyone's cats?  She has had no formal nutrition training or additional medicine credentials.  "Common sense" is her motto - which when I last checked was not science.  Actually there is very, very little science to back up her claims on her site.  No references, except an article that doesn't nearly support all the info she has put out on her site.  Some of her information is correct, other stuff is totally bogus or skewed.  This site, and most people who oppose dry food, will completely generalize dry food.  But there are such vast variations in dry foods, that to make blanket statements about all dry food is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

People need to understand that not all dry foods are created equally.  I grant you there are a lot of bad dry foods (and canned too, I would argue) out there that add things like sugars, artificial colours and preservatives, and fillers to their foods, and that are formulated with inappropriate levels of nutrients - all of which are terrible for a cat's health.  Well not all dry foods (or wet foods) are like that.  

I don't mean to stuff Royal Canin in people's faces... I just don't know any other company that goes to their level (perhaps Hills comes closest).... But if you go really in-depth into their company, you'll find that their food science goes hand-in-hand with the study of the cat's physiology.  The pet's needs are at the heart of their research, and they base their foods only based on their real needs.  They do a ton of research on things like growth, urinary crystals, diabetes, obesity, renal disease, cancer, etc, and they test their foods to make sure their diets are benefiting pets as much as possible.  They are a global company that employs thousands of veterinarians, nutritionists, and other scientists - many of them more educated in nutrition than "Dr. Pierson, D.V.M." - and many, I'm sure, just as passionate about pets as she is, as most people in veterinary medicine and nutrition are.  Royal Canin does more studies and publishes more peer-reviewed material on pet nutrition than any other pet company out there.  They work with clinics and fund university research programs to do things like test hundreds of thousands of urinary crystals to determine their compositions so they can better learn how to prevent and treat them.  They work with kennels and catteries to ensure that their diets are creating urine with low relative supersaturation - and even do studies comparing the efficacy of dry and wet diets.  The cost and time put into all this I'm sure must be tremendous.  But their research is what makes them, in my opinion, the best of pet foods, and it is for that reason that I trust their food.  

In response to Carolina... Interesting indeed.... especially because I am almost certain that Royal Canin has never had a vegetarian cat food... if you could find me info on that diet I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.  

prisma11 said:

In response to Carolina... Interesting indeed.... especially because I am almost certain that Royal Canin has never had a vegetarian cat food... if you could find me info on that diet I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.  

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Don't be so sure, as I fed it.
Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Hypoallergenic Hydrolyzed Protein Adult HP Dry Cat Food
Ingredients:
Brewers rice, hydrolyzed soy protein, chicken fat, natural flavors, powdered cel¬lulose, vegetable oil, dried beet pulp, monocalcium phosphate, fish oil, potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate, fructooligosaccharides, sodium silico aluminate, salt, taurine, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, DL-methionine, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), trace minerals [zinc protein¬ate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Ohhhhhhhh yeah it has Chicken fat and fish oil :doh3:
In my book, yep, vegetarian- All the protein in there comes FROM PLANTS.

I think this is the food Carolina's talking about: http://www.nationalpetpharmacy.com/...enic-Hydrolyzed-Protein-Adult-HP-Dry-Cat-Food

I won't call it "vegetarian" because it has chicken fat and fish oil, but it sure doesn't have any meat in it. . .

Oops, she beat me to it! :lol3:

prisma11 said:

I merely am an ardent believer in their science.  I think they are different from other companies.

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But in a yes or no answer, do you work or not for Royal Canin?