(LONG STORY) Found two stray kittens the other day, need much help with behavioral issues...

twentyone

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So a few days ago my mom was getting in her car to go somewhere and out of nowhere she said a little black kitty (approximately two to four months old) just jumped in her lap. Of course we took him home after stopping to the store to get some kittly litter and cat food (friskies wet canned food.) At first he was a little skittish which was expected, but he would purr and let me and my boyfriend pet him. We have been using a cake pan for a kitty litter box because we weren't planning on keeping him long but that will probably change. We have decided to call him Midnight because he is all black. A few days after we found him, my mom was up in the morning taking care of our dogs and she found another little kitty across the street curled up on our neighbors porch meowing very loud. She couldn't catch her so I gave it a try. I went up to her with a can of cat food we had gotten and the poor thing was so hungry she shoved her whole face in it and was covered up to her neck in food. Me and my boyfriend washed her off with a damp warm rag and it was then that i discovered she had two dead fleas on her. During her bath she was very very scared, unlike Midnight when we first found him, but she was so happy to have attention she was meowing the whole time. When we introduced the two kittens Midnight was friendly with her but she was frightened and hid under the dresser. We put two and two together and figured they were brother and sister because of the same green eyes, both being around the same age, both being found in the same location, and Midnight taking to her so quickly. After she hid under the dresser, he would try to play with her, but she would do that one meow where the cats mouth is closed and its more of a long drawn out low pitched noise, which I know means something along the lines of shes scared and may attack. My boyfriend would try to go by her but she'd growl at him as well. I fed her the rest of the cat food and eventually she let me grab her and I set her on my bed. I saw that she was underweight, its not terrible but definitely noticeable, you can see her cheeks go in and her hips and feel her spine and shoulders. We decided to call her Munchkin because she is just so tiny, possibly because she was the runt and she never fully grew because she didn't have proper nutrition, and I am very worried for her. Sometimes she'll just sit there on the floor and stare at me and meow, but her meow is sad. Its a little hard to explain, she'll open her mouth but her meow is so faint you can just hear the air come out. And other times her meows sound scratchy, and the rest are just soft small ones. My biggest concern is that Midnight is constantly picking on her. If she goes to eat he will just sit there and watch her and wait and when shes done he'll pounce on her, same if she uses the litter box. To make matters much worse, the two kittens are confined to our bedroom because if we let them out my dogs will kill them. When she sits on the bed she would almost always to prefer to sit right at the corner, isolated. At first if you would try to play with her she would just give you a sad look, but she would always always purr when you pet her or picked her up off the floor when she was just staring at you. Starting yesterday though, she started showing interest in playing with the toys we have and her brother, but his interaction with her isn't as positive. She will try to play with him, but he'll take it too far, every single time, and pin her down and just bite her and kick her, and she will just lay there and take it and meow or try to get away by running under the bed and of course he follows and hurts her but when they're under there i can't get to them and can't take her away from him. She will go up to  Midnight wanting to cuddle and here's what I don't get, at first he'll lick her and cuddle and be nice, but then it turns into him wrapping his arms around her and licking her more violently and then biting her, and again she'll lay there and cry for help and I have to pick her up, scare him away, and put her on the bed. But then she will just go right back down, try to play with him, he gets too aggressive, and I have to break it up again. I go through this all day. I'm worried that by constantly rescuing her she will never learn to defend herself, but he is twice her size and on top of it shes underweight and I just can't sit there and watch him hurt her and listen to her cry. I'm worried that he actually might be trying to kill her, he wasn't underweight when we found him so i'm guessing he caught his own food. And now whenever you try to hold him or pet him he will just scratch and bite you, both of my hands are covered in scratches up to my wrists. I am not giving these kittens to a shelter where they could possibly be put down or separated, and I am going to make sure Muchkin gets the proper nutrition she needs. I don't know what to do, why is she so quiet, she always looks so sad, and why doesn't she ever defend herself? And why is he so out of control and always wanting to attack her? We've had no trouble potty training either one. And also, Munchkin now shows interest in playing but whenever Midnight comes along she'll kind of just stop and sit there. And I believe Midnight knows that attacking her is bad because every time he does it and I get up to scare him away he runs but she doesn't move. It's nice when they're both sleepy though because then  Midnight is calm and willing to cuddle with her. One last thing, I have a big fluffy robe that we let the kittens sleep on and whenever Midnight is on  it he searches for milk, could this mean that he was taken away from his mother too soon? 
 
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bastfriend

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Twentyone, thanks for rescuing these kittens!  Now here's just a few random thoughts I have...   It is very important to break the cycle of Midnight bullying Munchkin because that will continue and become a bigger problem once they are full sized.   Take it from someone who has been there.   Is there a way you can create a separate area in the room so that each can  have their own space?   It is possible to buy a large sized dog crate that would hold a small litter box and food and water, and you could keep one in there during times you can't supervise.   Also the minute aggression starts gently without anger put one kitten - I'd say Midnight in the crate for a time-out so he begins to learn he gets his freedom if he is well-behaved.   Munchkin needs consistent nutrition and recovery time.    Have you taken these kittens to the vet yet?  Very important as they may be affected by fleas, worms, and earmites and this could be causing Munchkin's ill health too.
 
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twentyone

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What me and my boyfriend try to do to give them separate time is he'll play with one kitten while I play with the other. Unfortunately we don't have money for a crate but if it wouldn't be cruel to Midnight I could turn my laundry basket upside down and put him in there for a few minutes for a "time out" when he is too violent. I'm pretty sure that Munchkin doesn't have fleas because except for her tail and a little patch on her head shes all white and we would be able to easily see them and I checked her pretty good, I do agree though that they need to see a vet. But I know my mother, if i propose this idea to her shes going to say i'm over reacting and expecting the worse situation and putting too much effort into it. Money is an issue as well, but i'm going to try to talk her into it. Would you have any idea what the cost would be for basic shots? If the vet does just a check up and there's nothing wrong with my kitties and no medicine is needed does the check up still cost money? Thank you very much for your help.
 

bastfriend

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I could see the laundry basket being a good "time out" center if it has holes he can peek through on the sides though it wouldn't be big enough for more than a short break.   One option too is to check out second-hand stores, you might be able to find some roomy dog crates for cheap there.    The main test for fleas the vets do is to run a flea comb through their fur to look for flea dirt - here's a video on how to do it:
[VIDEO][/VIDEO]
Fleas are sneaky and sometimes you won't see the flea but only the evidence left behind.  As for vets, what they charge varies hugely depending on where you live.  I won't tell you what they charge where I am cause it would scare you, but there's big variation based on region - your best bet is to call some vets in your area and ask them, tell them it is a rescue situation and they might give you a break too.   Another option to consider is to contact a local rescue group or no-kill shelter to consider surrendering the kittens.  When you call vets to ask their charges they can probably give you the name/number of some these groups.   The expenses involved in keeping them throughout their adult lives can be significant and you won't be able to keep them in that one room indefinitely.   You've already done a wonderful thing in saving them and it's okay to look to the future to ask whether it is a long-term commitment you and your family can make. 
 
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twentyone

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I'll have to start contacting them soon then. Thank you for posting the video. If it is possible i definitely want to keep the kittens, and I will fight very hard for it. Me and my boyfriend are planning to get our own place by next summer, he's going to be working in the union with his dad starting around march and i'm currently looking for a job. But it would be nearly impossible and unfair to the kittens to keep them cooped up in this room for almost a year. I've been thinking of a way to keep them and the only thing I can come up with is for someone else to temporarily take care of them, but I have no family that can do this. I was wondering if maybe a shelter or foster home could take them in for a few months until we get our own place, and i'd be willing to pay money for it too, I have some saved up for something I wanted but if it meant keeping the kittens i'd definitely have it go towards that instead.
 

bastfriend

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Your very welcome!   And I hope not to have offended you by bringing up the idea of giving up the kittens.   I think it is always worth looking at all of your options.   Some rescue groups do have a network of foster homes so maybe they can work with your plan and also help you find a low cost vet that helps with rescues.  Wishing you and the kittens the best!
 
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twentyone

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No its ok you didn't, its just an option i'm  trying really hard not to make. But I do need to keep in mind that if none of my plans pull through that this will most likely end up happening 
 

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One room habitat for two cats (and two people) is not impossible. I have a friend with a New York City studio apartment and two cats and everybody is doing fine. My old lady cat basically lives in my study, her choice. Even when the door is open she tends to stay in there.

Can you make them them some vertical option(s)? A couple of cardboard boxes with doorways cut in them, two piled up with an interior doorway to get from level to level, and upper box smaller than the lower one - they can go in and out, up and down, great fun for kittens and cats. Just tape the boxes together so they don't tumble the upper box down.

If you play with them, cuddle them, love on them - they'll be happy.
 
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twentyone

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That's a really good idea, I never would have thought of it
 
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