Raw Feeding - Costly?

Hello there. I just got interested in the raw feeding for my cat, and I just had a couple of questions.

Do you find it costly in comparison to kibble/wet foods? About how much do you think you spend on preparing food a month?

What would be the best way to keep it low-budget, without sacrificing the quality of the food? I'm willing to spend what I have to, but would like to keep it affordable (not exactly high income here).

Any advice? Tips? Thanks!

* Also, if anyone could possibly get into detail about how to get into all of this, or share a link with some useful information (I've looked at http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition  particularly), maybe with some good recipes (that really explain how to do it all), that would be highly appreciated!

It was costing us somewhere between $30-$40 a month to feed raw for one adult, one teen, and two kittens. Unfortunately at this point we cannot afford to continue that. You also either need to buy supplements to add into the food (it's not that hard to do) or somehow get the organs needed.

There are three main choices for raw feeding: processed, fresh or whole. Processed is commercially-packaged ground products with costs that are, typically, comparable to or more expensive than canned products. A fresh diet consists of ingredients sourced from local and online stores and prepared at home and is usually the least expensive raw feeding option. It can be served either ground or in large pieces (called prey model raw [PMR] or frankenprey). Whole prey is just what it sounds like: small whole animals are fed to the cat. Whole prey is both the most beneficial and the most expensive option.

I feed PMR and when I made the switch from canned foods, I literally cut my cat food costs in half.

This article is a very detailed cost analysis between all the commercial options: How much does it cost to feed my cat? or “I *can* afford to feed commercial raw!”

You can review this data (Commercial Raw Products Compared) to get an overview of the commercial raw products available, and take a look at this article (Raw Feeding Your Cat: Just the Basics) to get an idea what fresh, home-made diets entail.

Hope this helps!

AC

Having thought about cost a lot. . .well, it depends what you switch from. If you switch from dry Cat Chow, yeah, it'll cost more. If you switch from a high-quality canned food, it'll probably be cheaper.

Feeding prepared raw (I'm looking at the average price of a variety of meats from Hare Today) and assuming an average of 5 ounces a day for each cat, it would cost me about $1 a day per cat. Currently I'm averaging 50 cents per day per cat, feeding mostly canned Friskies with some higher-quality brands mixed in. But, if I can prepare my own ground food (I can't go with Prey Model because I have no way of controlling each individual cat's intake), I think I can get the price down to about the same as what I'm paying now.

I can get bone-in chicken thighs and liver for about $1 a pound. Boneless chicken breast or thighs for about $2 a pound. Boneless beef roast for about $2.50 a pound. Rabbit from Hare Today for about $5 a pound after shipping (I have not yet found another source for rabbit, and even if I did I bet it would cost more). If I made the mix half chicken, 1/4 beef, and 1/4 rabbit, it would be about $2.25 a pound, maybe add a bit for supplements, say $2.50 a pound. At 5 ounces a day. . .well, OK, about 75 cents per cat per day. Still a bit more than Friskies but less than pretty much any other canned food.

There are cheaper ways to get meat, if you join a co-op or know hunters, that kind of thing. Those prices I put are regular prices from Sam's Club, grocery stores, the natural food place, etc.

Just my disjointed ramblings for your calculating pleasure! :tongue2:

Willowy said:

...

I can get bone-in chicken thighs and liver for about $1 a pound. Boneless chicken breast or thighs for about $2 a pound. Boneless beef roast for about $2.50 a pound. Rabbit from Hare Today for about $5 a pound after shipping (I have not yet found another source for rabbit, and even if I did I bet it would cost more).

....

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Not to derail this thread, but just as an aside, you can get rabbit for comparable prices (or a bit less) from My Pet Carnivore. Their per pound prices are substantially lower, but their shipping is higher, so it depends on how you order. (Due to HT's inconsistent quality, I don't buy much from them anymore.)

AC

Thanks for the replies!

Would I be able to purchase the necessary meats and supplements at local grocery stores, or will it be mandatory that I have stuff shipped?

I know that I wouldn't be able to find things like quail, rabbit, or venison, but if I stuck to more easier-to-find meats?

1$ a day doesn't sound too bad. I was expecting a lot more expensive, like 50$ just to get a week's worth, haha.

EDIT: Also, is there any specific meats I can't use? I've read that you wouldn't just pick up the ground beef at the grocery store because there's bacteria in it.

But does this go as far to say that any meats that weren't frozen immediately aren't good? I do a lot of meat cooking at home, including things like whole chickens - Would it be safe to use the giblets I pull out of a whole chicken and include those in the raw food I prep for my kitty? Or is it already considered bad, since I purchased the chicken in a non-frozen state (even if I freeze it when I get home)?

Buying pre-ground grocery store meats is discouraged from a quality-control perspective - you just don't know what's in those meats, where they've come from, how often they've been ground or frozen, etc. And, of course, their bacterial load can generally be expected to exceed that of whole meats.

If you grind your ingredients, whatever supplements you chose to use will likely need to be purchased online, but other supplement users can respond to that question more definitively. PMR and whole prey diets aren't usually supplemented.

No, there are no meats you can't feed your kitties. And, yes, you should be able to buy your entire menu locally. You'll need at least three different meats (four or five or more is better, but three is the recommended minimum) and two different organs (liver and something else, like kidney) and you should be able to find all of those pretty easily.

AC

CatTreats said:

Hello there. I just got interested in the raw feeding for my cat, and I just had a couple of questions.

Do you find it costly in comparison to kibble/wet foods? About how much do you think you spend on preparing food a month?

What would be the best way to keep it low-budget, without sacrificing the quality of the food? I'm willing to spend what I have to, but would like to keep it affordable (not exactly high income here).

Any advice? Tips? Thanks!

* Also, if anyone could possibly get into detail about how to get into all of this, or share a link with some useful information (I've looked at http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition particularly), maybe with some good recipes (that really explain how to do it all), that would be highly appreciated!

Click to expand...

Hi! Welcome to TCS!

There are multiple threads in this forum about starting raw. I mean, those of us, when we started out, we've posted almost daily on our experiences. That's how I got started, I read some of the other 'beginner' threads, which made it all seem much less intimidating and overwhelming.

Many of the threads are really long, but you could read the first couple of pages of some of them to get an idea of how you might expect things to go.

After getting some basic background knowledge, I found the "learn as you go" method the best for me, otherwise I get too overwhelmed.

Some cats take to raw right away, others don't recognize it as food for a while, some take even longer. There are many tricks you can use (garnishing I mean) to encourage kitty to try the raw food.

My Mazy is a good example, the first time I put some raw food in her dish, next to her usual canned food, she wouldn't even eat the canned food, because of the raw in her dish. Now here she is 6 weeks later eating up her Rad Cat without even garnish needed, and even trying small chunks (but those still need to be "enhanced")

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248249/the-introduction-to-rad-cat-frozen-raw

Every cat reacts differently and the thing to remember is to go as slow as the cat needs. There is no hurry. I will say what someone said to me that really really helped. Don't focus on a complete transition at first. Even just adding a little raw to their daily diet can make a difference. (warning: but be aware that once you start, and see the improvements, you may find yourself wanting to keep going. That's what has happened to me :lol3: )

I look forward to following YOUR introduction to raw thread, when you are ready to start!

Hi and welcome to TCS!

I don't think anyone answered your question about using the giblets from the chickens you buy for yourself. Absolutely YES! Some people will feed the neck to their cats - I personally think those are too large for a cat. Cats eat small bones - think mouse and rabbit. So from a chicken, the appropriate bones, if feeding non-ground, are the ribs (soft and pliable), or the two smallest bones from the wing. :nod: But the innards are great for them, and you SHOULD use them!

FYI, even though most meat at the supermarket doesn't say previously frozen, it usually has been: only because transport pretty much requires it.

The ONLY thing you really need to pay attention to when buying meat locally is the sodium content. Many meats have been "enhanced." The easiest way to know if the meat has an added sodium solution in it is to check the sodium content per serving. Servings are typically listed in 4 oz "servings." Just check the sodium per serving: if it's less than 100mg, it's safe to feed to your kitties.

As already explained, it's best not to buy ground to feed to your cats. There are two issues, one of which was already addressed. But IMO, the most important reason to skip the already-ground meats is that grinding increases surface area dramatically: this means oxidation (loss of nutrient content). This isn't as much of a concern for people that make homemade ground, because it's ground and then immediately frozen. :nod: But the ground meat at the supermarket sits out until we buy it - and it could be a day or couple of days, and the kitties need those nutrients.

I don't feed my cats ground food, but it wasn't by choice, actually. Like so many others, I started with commercial raw. I had very limited freezer space (I ended up buying a small chest freezer on craigslist for $35 to provide the freezer space I needed). But at first I had no freezer storage, so I HAD to find commercial food locally. That pretty much limited me to Nature's Variety Instinct frozen. They target 15% bone, which is too much for many cats. (When feeding prey model raw, or even if making ground, most people target 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ, like kidney). So I had to use just plain meat at a few meals to "thin out" the bone content they were getting in the commercial food. (NV is the only one that targets that much bone). And most of the cats decided they preferred the chunks of food, and started refusing the commercial stuff. :lol3:

I feed raw to 8 cats. The smallest eats 3 ounces a day. The bigger cats are now eating about 4 ounces a day (it was 4.5 ounces, but they're all older and kind of lazy - even with their increased energy on raw - so I had to trim back the amount I was feeding them. So I feed about 10 ounces of food a day. That works out to ABOUT (I'm rounding up) 19 pounds a month.

Like Willowy, I spend on average $1.99 for chicken breast, chicken thighs, and pork (I don't buy at Walmart or Sam's Club, but I've got the "on sale" routine down at the local supermarkets: A&P, ShopRite, and Weiss). I buy turkey breast for $4.99 a pound (boneless), and lamb for .... let me go look, I've got it in the fridge...boneless leg (domestic) for $4.99 a pound. I use duck hearts, turkey hearts, boneless turkey thigh cubes, beef kidney, goat chunks, ground whole rabbit and pork, boneless venison cubes (expensive, but my costs are still lower than when I was feeding canned, so I like having it in the rotation) from Hare Today. The shipping adds about $1 a pound to the cost. The only reason I get so much stuff from Hare Today is because I don't have an asian market anywhere near me, and the local supermarkets don't sell heart or interesting meats (though I choose to feed those, they're not "necessary.").

OK. I just calculated how much (including the $1 extra per pound for shipping the Hare Today stuff) it costs per month for the meat and organs. I spend about $72 a month to feed 8 cats the meat and organs. That is $2.40 a day, or $0.30 per cat per day.

Now - I use a number of supplements (I just sprinkle them/drop them on the chunks. Adding that cost to the meat and organs (the supplements I use cost more than the meat - so I used real bone, it would bring my cost down quite a bit), it costs me a little less than $7 a day to feed 8 cats, or $0.87 per cat per day.

The canned food I was feeding cost $1.30 - $2.00 per can, and each cat ate about one can a day. So I'm saving quite a bit feeding homemade.

FYI, many feeding prey model raw use canned sardines (no salt) as an omega 3 supplement; that would save more money, but I have older cats, and their joints benefit from my using krill oil as the omega 3 supplement. And most feeding PMR (prey model raw) feed raw eggs or egg yolks once or twice a week because they're nutrition-packed little packages.

As otto said, we've all been there at that start, and it can seem overwhelming! But there's nothing wrong with starting with just a little at a time, and working on it as you go. She provided a link to her thread, which is a great illustration.

...and we're here to answer any questions and provide support!

LDG said:

Hi and welcome to TCS!

I don't think anyone answered your question about using the giblets from the chickens you buy for yourself. Absolutely YES! Some people will feed the neck to their cats - I personally think those are too large for a cat. Cats eat small bones - think mouse and rabbit. So from a chicken, the appropriate bones, if feeding non-ground, are the ribs (soft and pliable), or the two smallest bones from the wing.

But the innards are great for them, and you SHOULD use them!

FYI, even though most meat at the supermarket doesn't say previously frozen, it usually has been: only because transport pretty much requires it.
The ONLY thing you really need to pay attention to when buying meat locally is the sodium content. Many meats have been "enhanced." The easiest way to know if the meat has an added sodium solution in it is to check the sodium content per serving. Servings are typically listed in 4 oz "servings." Just check the sodium per serving: if it's less than 100mg, it's safe to feed to your kitties.

As already explained, it's best not to buy ground to feed to your cats. There are two issues, one of which was already addressed. But IMO, the most important reason to skip the already-ground meats is that grinding increases surface area dramatically: this means oxidation (loss of nutrient content). This isn't as much of a concern for people that make homemade ground, because it's ground and then immediately frozen.

But the ground meat at the supermarket sits out until we buy it - and it could be a day or couple of days, and the kitties need those nutrients.
I don't feed my cats ground food, but it wasn't by choice, actually. Like so many others, I started with commercial raw. I had very limited freezer space (I ended up buying a small chest freezer on craigslist for $35 to provide the freezer space I needed). But at first I had no freezer storage, so I HAD to find commercial food locally. That pretty much limited me to Nature's Variety Instinct frozen. They target 15% bone, which is too much for many cats. (When feeding prey model raw, or even if making ground, most people target 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ, like kidney). So I had to use just plain meat at a few meals to "thin out" the bone content they were getting in the commercial food. (NV is the only one that targets that much bone). And most of the cats decided they preferred the chunks of food, and started refusing the commercial stuff.

I feed raw to 8 cats. The smallest eats 3 ounces a day. The bigger cats are now eating about 4 ounces a day (it was 4.5 ounces, but they're all older and kind of lazy - even with their increased energy on raw - so I had to trim back the amount I was feeding them. So I feed about 10 ounces of food a day. That works out to ABOUT (I'm rounding up) 19 pounds a month.
Like Willowy, I spend on average $1.99 for chicken breast, chicken thighs, and pork (I don't buy at Walmart or Sam's Club, but I've got the "on sale" routine down at the local supermarkets: A&P, ShopRite, and Weiss). I buy turkey breast for $4.99 a pound (boneless), and lamb for .... let me go look, I've got it in the fridge...boneless leg (domestic) for $4.99 a pound. I use duck hearts, turkey hearts, boneless turkey thigh cubes, beef kidney, goat chunks, ground whole rabbit and pork, boneless venison cubes (expensive, but my costs are still lower than when I was feeding canned, so I like having it in the rotation) from Hare Today. The shipping adds about $1 a pound to the cost. The only reason I get so much stuff from Hare Today is because I don't have an asian market anywhere near me, and the local supermarkets don't sell heart or interesting meats (though I choose to feed those, they're not "necessary.").
OK. I just calculated how much (including the $1 extra per pound for shipping the Hare Today stuff) it costs per month for the meat and organs. I spend about $72 a month to feed 8 cats the meat and organs. That is $2.40 a day, or $0.30 per cat per day.
Now - I use a number of supplements (I just sprinkle them/drop them on the chunks. Adding that cost to the meat and organs (the supplements I use cost more than the meat - so I used real bone, it would bring my cost down quite a bit), it costs me a little less than $7 a day to feed 8 cats, or $0.87 per cat per day.
The canned food I was feeding cost $1.30 - $2.00 per can, and each cat ate about one can a day. So I'm saving quite a bit feeding homemade.

FYI, many feeding prey model raw use canned sardines (no salt) as an omega 3 supplement; that would save more money, but I have older cats, and their joints benefit from my using krill oil as the omega 3 supplement. And most feeding PMR (prey model raw) feed raw eggs or egg yolks once or twice a week because they're nutrition-packed little packages.
As otto said, we've all been there at that start, and it can seem overwhelming! But there's nothing wrong with starting with just a little at a time, and working on it as you go. She provided a link to her thread, which is a great illustration.

...and we're here to answer any questions and provide support!

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for such an in depth response! I appreciate everyone's responses, as well.

We (my boyfriend and I) are definitely set on doing the raw diet. I already was learning a lot of bad stuff about dry food (the reason that I was going into a bunch of forums was to see the "best" dry food I could buy, and stumbled on the raw thing and was just like WOW), and I really love the idea of making the food myself. I feel like it'll almost bring me closer to the kitty, knowing that I'm prepping the food myself (like you would for your kid), on top of the fact that you know exactly what your cat is eating (seriously).

Anyways, the cost sounds doable for us, and I really think this completely settles it - we're doing it.

I was wondering if I could get any good recipes, though? I'd at least like one to start out with because I just feel uncomfortable trying to use the info and making my own. Whatever would be lower-budget (not bison or venison, too pricey to buy). Or at least a recipe that I would be able to alter depending on the meats I choose. I know that rabbit would need other meats in it due to low fat content. Stuff like that. I really just need someone to spoon feed me all the directions so I can feel like I won't mess it up. ._.

Thanks again everyone, I'm enjoying all of the responses!

EDIT: One more thing. Aside from trying to keep things "exciting" for the cat, is it necessary to constantly use different recipes? I know that you need to use at least 3 different animal meats, but could I use the same one over and over or is there a need to be changing it up?

Oh man! I just wrote out another long (hopefully helpful) post, and accidentally lost the whole thing. I'm so sorry! I'll have to work on it tomorrow - it's late for me.

The very incredibly short version was... the first step, before you worry about anything else, is to get your cats eating timed meals, if they aren't already. :nod: For us, that was the hardest part. They're not used to eating enough at one sitting, so you have to use measured amounts, and a number of small meals at first, then slowly make them larger meals less frequently. The minimum number of meals is 3 a day. Most people feed before work, after work (around dinner) and a late night meal before bed.

I know that doesn't answer any of your questions, but that's the first step!

LDG said:

Oh man! I just wrote out another long (hopefully helpful) post, and accidentally lost the whole thing.

I'm so sorry!

I'll have to work on it tomorrow - it's late for me.
The very incredibly short version was... the first step, before you worry about anything else, is to get your cats eating timed meals, if they aren't already.

For us, that was the hardest part. They're not used to eating enough at one sitting, so you have to use measured amounts, and a number of small meals at first, then slowly make them larger meals less frequently. The minimum number of meals is 3 a day. Most people feed before work, after work (around dinner) and a late night meal before bed.
I know that doesn't answer any of your questions, but that's the first step!

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Oh no! That's why I always select all and copy (ctrl a + ctrl c) my post before doing anything, like attempting to submit.

It's okay though, no worries. :3 I actually do not have a cat at the moment (have one with my mom, but I don't live with her). My boyfriend and I are getting an apartment together soon, and we're definitely set on adopting a kitten when the time comes. I've just been doing HEAVY research on all types of things like foods, litters, flea prevention, etc., because of bad health experiences in my previous kitties (wouldn't be surprised if 99% of it was food related at this point).

From what I've seen, doing the gradual switch to raw should be a whole lot easier as a kitten, so not a big worry on that. I do worry about the food schedule only because my boyfriend and I both work random times each day, so "before work" and "after work" would most likely be varying everyday. Any tips on that?

Hello there!

I'm basically just starting on raw, so I know where you are coming from. It's very stressful trying to figure out how to go about making the meals.

Most people ask the question you are: Where can I get the recipes?
The thing is, there really aren't any recipes. It's more about ratios. If you are feeding bone, then the 80/10/5/5 ratio comes into play. 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other organs. If you aren't feeding bone, then you need to supplement with calcium. There is a certain equation you have to use. You can also use a supplement that is made by Call of the Wild. It balances out any meal.
So basically, (from what I understand) as long as you serve foods that complete that ratio within a week, you can feed whatever you like. Chicken and hearts on Monday, lamb and livers on Tuesday, etc.

Cheers

Hey welcome to the Raw Feeding forum.

I just came back from 10 days of vacation so had to prepare a lot of raw food for Ritz.  I went to several grocery stores for various items and picked up pork, turkey, chicken breast tenderloins and beef, all at the 'sell by' date so all at least $1 or $2 off the listed priced.  I calculated how much the meat cost me, divided by number of meals, and it came out to around 93 cents per meal.  I feed Ritz around 5 oz of food (meat + bone + kidney + liver).

Note you can feed cheaper than this, the other posters gave good suggestions.  I tend to buy expensive cuts of meat like veal when it is on sale (Ritz = Ritz Hotel, putting on the Ritz:  she has expensive tastes).

Another source of meats is an international food supermarket; they sometimes sell meat cheaper than your regular supermarket, and certainly have a greater variety of meats and organs, like goat, rabbit and quail.  Ritz likes them all.

Kittens eat a LOT; cat centric.org has a good excel spreadsheet for figuring out how much food to feed a kitten.

There are recipes on line for making your own raw cat food, I believe Dr. Pierson has one.  http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

Finally, I am gone for 10 to 12 hours during the work week.  I/we get up around 3 a.m., I feed Ritz around 1 oz then, right before I leave, another once or 1.5 oz, and the rest when I get home.  There are  automatic feeders for raw (and dry, canned) food; check on line and other threads for the ones people recommend.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

OH! If you're going to get a kitten, then you may not need to worry about a transition at all. Kittens are still forming their food preferences, and so many just eat raw right off the bat.

And yeah - all that happened was I was switching between tabs and accidentally closed the window. :anon: I do the same thing (copying long posts), because I've lost too many - and I almost always write a book. :lol3:

For the timing of the meals... between the two of you, will someone be around at roughly the same times every day? If not, you can freeze the portions, and either leave them out to thaw so kitty can eat them when they've dethawed, or you can freeze them and use an automatic feeder. I think the CatCentric.org site also has feeder recommendations on it somewhere. :nod:

When it comes to recipes, and the importance of proteins, think of it this way, it may help.

When you feed a commercial canned or kibble, most of the nutrition comes from the vitamins and supplements added to the food. This is why you can feed the same food day in and day out. I personally don't think it's a good idea - I think rotation of types of protein sources and brands of food if using commercial canned foods is still important. I can get all the nutrition I need from eating the same cereal, the same microwave dinner, and the same apple every day..... but I'll do much better if I eat a variety of grains, meats, and fruits and veggies. :nod:

Now contrast the commercial canned to raw food. When feeding raw, the nutrition isn't coming primarily from anything you add to the food: it's not processed to death, the nutrition is coming FROM the food. Any supplements added are usually added to account for the process of packaging that chicken, lamb, pork or whatever, and transporting and storing it. So rotating the protein source becomes essential to provide that wide variety of nutrients. In fact, it's not only important to provide a number of proteins, it's important to use different parts of those proteins. A chicken breast has a very different profile than a chicken thigh; same for turkey breast and thigh; a pork shoulder has a different profile than a pork butt or loin, etc. I posted an illustration here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248504/hmmm-wouldnt-touch-his-primal#post_3248132

Ideally, you should have 5 or so proteins in rotation. I have 8, I think (I forgot to include goat in the list, though I don't always have it to feed, they like it). They all have SUCH differing nutrients in them, to ensure your kitties are getting what they need, it's pretty essential to include at least three different proteins - and within those proteins, feed different parts of the animal (thigh vs breast; loin, leg, shoulder, chop, etc.).

At some point in the future, when you have time, you can take a look at the differences in the nutritional content of various meats (raw) and their cuts. The USDA database covers just about anything you'd feed: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/list

But for instance, chicken thigh (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05096) vs chicken breast (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05062) vs. your london broil :lol3: (which is a beef shank - I used USDA database #13227, "Beef, shank crosscuts, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/4" fat, choice, raw).

mg per 100g

Just examples, not the whole profile....

Thigh
Potassium 245
Sodium 89
Zinc 1.52
Niacin 5.585
B-6 0.445
B-12 (ug) 0.64
Vitamin K (ug) 2.9

Breast
Potassium 370
Sodium 116
Zinc 0.58
Niacin 10.43
B-6 0.749
B-12 (ug) 0.20
Vitamin K (ug) 0.2

Beef shank
Potassium 387
Sodium 63
Zinc 6.94
Niacin 5.74
B-6 0.47
B-12 (ug) 3.33
Vitamin K (ug) Not available for this

Note: I am NOT providing this info because you need to know what's in everything. It's just an illustration to make the point - it's best to rotate a number of proteins, and a number of different parts of the animals within those proteins - because each provides less or more of different nutrients. Just like you can't live on just melons, you need other fruits and veggies. :nod:

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.

So for "recipes," if you want to invest in a grinder, if you want to make ground food, and you want time tested recipes, they exist:

http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html
http://www.holisticat.com/well-fed/
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

.

The advantages of ground food.... kitties get balanced nutrition at each meal, the way the would in the wild. You don't have to worry about whether they like liver, kidney, or whatever organs you're going to feed.... because if you go the route of prey model raw, the guideline is 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% "other secreting organ." One of my cats can't keep raw liver or raw kidney down - but he does just fine with ground whole animals (sourced from Hare Today) - which means in smaller amounts, he CAN eat raw kidney and liver.

Now... most commercial raw foods do not provide liver AND another secreting organ. They just provide more liver, and even those with almost no other additives still meet AAFCO "complete and balanced" guidelines. Freeze drying retains the nutritional profile of the food, so what I do for him is feed him freeze dried liver - an amount that would be equivalent to 10% of his diet raw.

But here's my menu:

Lamb 1x per week
Turkey breast 2x per week
Rabbit 2x per week (one is ground whole rabbit from HT, one is rabbit meat)
Pork 1x per week
Turkey thigh 2x per week
Goat 1x per week (when I have it; when I don't, I use pork)
Venison 1x per week
Chicken Thigh 2x per week
Duck hearts 2x per week
Turkey hearts 1x per week

That's 15 meals. I feed 3 meals a day, so 21 meals a week. For the other six meals, they get a combination of chicken breast and liver or kidney, and chicken gizzards and liver or kidney.

The supplements I use are either krill oil or salmon oil (for an omega 3. Many use canned sardines as a treat once or twice a week), a probiotic daily, a calcium supplement (but with a kitty, all you'd have to do is feed bone-in meals 3-4x a week. I have older cats with health issues from years on crappy food), I provide some taurine, and a little Vitamin E (in liquid form, just a drop on one meal every-other day). ALL of these (other than the calcium) are used as minor tweaks to the diet to account for the fact that the meat is not small rodent, fresh kill.

Oh - I also feed raw egg yolks twice a week - as a snack.

I buy the meat when it's available on sale, and I portion it up into meal-sized packages and freeze it. To feed it, I just pull the baggie out of the freezer, dethaw it in the fridge or a bowl of cold water. I usually have the meals I'm going to feed the next day ready the night before (just easier for me that way). The only supplements I add at every meal are calcium and salmon oil. It's quick and easy.

There are other styles of feeding to be sure. There are a lot of books, and many recipes with some veggies or kelp or whatever. Most on TCS, whether feeding ground food or prey model raw, follow some form of the 80/10/5/5 style. Cats do derive some benefit from veggies, I guess, but they don't eat them in the wild, so at least I don't think they're necessary. In fact... dark leafed veggies can cause problems for the kitties, because of the minerals; carrots provide no benefit, because cats lack the digestive enzymes necessary to convert the beta carotene into Vitamin A (look at the ingredients of ANY kibble or canned - every single one, even if they have carrots - will have a Vitamin A supplement. :nod: Carrot is filler, and beta carotene is color, period, when it comes to cat food. :lol3: ).

The one thing that is absolutely imperative, whatever style of diet you choose to feed, is to balance the phosphorus in the meat with calcium. Whether you use bones or a supplement, it needs to be fed in the right amount. It's not rocket science, but it is important. And that little bit of liver and kidney (or whatever) may not seem like a lot - and it isn't. But they're SO packed with nutrition, to not include it can also lead to problems down the road. Too many people jump in and feed just meat, and that just doesn't provide everything they need. ...and that said, nutritional deficiencies take a long time to develop, so I also see no problem jumping in and learning as you go.

Depends on what you are feeding, if it's commercial it's going to be expensive.  Homemade raw is generally not, I was paying $1 a day to feed canned and spend a lot less than that to feed raw.  Shopping around and contacting people helps a lot, as does buying in bulk if you can.  My cat won't/can't eat red meats like pork or beef so she eats chicken (.70) turkey (1.99) rabbit (1.25), grouse (free, hunted), mice (free, breed them), duck ($4!, brat won't eat the local duck, only from hare-today), CGH ($2).  Those are by the pound prices but she only eats 5-6 oz a day, about 11 pounds a month.  IDK, maybe $15 a month?  I don't grind anything and it's better if they will eat chunks/bones for their teeth, she eats 2-5 times a day and I just feed her when I get up, on my lunch and a couple times at night, doesn't need to be exact or anything. 
 

LDG said:

OH! If you're going to get a kitten, then you may not need to worry about a transition at all. Kittens are still forming their food preferences, and so many just eat raw right off the bat.

And yeah - all that happened was I was switching between tabs and accidentally closed the window.

I do the same thing (copying long posts), because I've lost too many - and I almost always write a book.

For the timing of the meals... between the two of you, will someone be around at roughly the same times every day? If not, you can freeze the portions, and either leave them out to thaw so kitty can eat them when they've dethawed, or you can freeze them and use an automatic feeder. I think the CatCentric.org site also has feeder recommendations on it somewhere.

When it comes to recipes, and the importance of proteins, think of it this way, it may help.
When you feed a commercial canned or kibble, most of the nutrition comes from the vitamins and supplements added to the food. This is why you can feed the same food day in and day out. I personally don't think it's a good idea - I think rotation of types of protein sources and brands of food if using commercial canned foods is still important. I can get all the nutrition I need from eating the same cereal, the same microwave dinner, and the same apple every day..... but I'll do much better if I eat a variety of grains, meats, and fruits and veggies.

Now contrast the commercial canned to raw food. When feeding raw, the nutrition isn't coming primarily from anything you add to the food: it's not processed to death, the nutrition is coming FROM the food. Any supplements added are usually added to account for the process of packaging that chicken, lamb, pork or whatever, and transporting and storing it. So rotating the protein source becomes essential to provide that wide variety of nutrients. In fact, it's not only important to provide a number of proteins, it's important to use different parts of those proteins. A chicken breast has a very different profile than a chicken thigh; same for turkey breast and thigh; a pork shoulder has a different profile than a pork butt or loin, etc. I posted an illustration here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248504/hmmm-wouldnt-touch-his-primal#post_3248132
.
So for "recipes," if you want to invest in a grinder, if you want to make ground food, and you want time tested recipes, they exist:
http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html
http://www.holisticat.com/well-fed/
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood
.
The advantages of ground food.... kitties get balanced nutrition at each meal, the way the would in the wild. You don't have to worry about whether they like liver, kidney, or whatever organs you're going to feed.... because if you go the route of prey model raw, the guideline is 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% "other secreting organ." One of my cats can't keep raw liver or raw kidney down - but he does just fine with ground whole animals (sourced from Hare Today) - which means in smaller amounts, he CAN eat raw kidney and liver.
Now... most commercial raw foods do not provide liver AND another secreting organ. They just provide more liver, and even those with almost no other additives still meet AAFCO "complete and balanced" guidelines. Freeze drying retains the nutritional profile of the food, so what I do for him is feed him freeze dried liver - an amount that would be equivalent to 10% of his diet raw.
But here's my menu:
Lamb 1x per week
Turkey breast 2x per week
Rabbit 2x per week (one is ground whole rabbit from HT, one is rabbit meat)
Pork 1x per week
Turkey thigh 2x per week
Goat 1x per week (when I have it; when I don't, I use pork)
Venison 1x per week
Chicken Thigh 2x per week
Duck hearts 2x per week
Turkey hearts 1x per week
That's 15 meals. I feed 3 meals a day, so 21 meals a week. For the other six meals, they get a combination of chicken breast and liver or kidney, and chicken gizzards and liver or kidney.
The supplements I use are either krill oil or salmon oil (for an omega 3. Many use canned sardines as a treat once or twice a week), a probiotic daily, a calcium supplement (but with a kitty, all you'd have to do is feed bone-in meals 3-4x a week. I have older cats with health issues from years on crappy food), I provide some taurine, and a little Vitamin E (in liquid form, just a drop on one meal every-other day). ALL of these (other than the calcium) are used as minor tweaks to the diet to account for the fact that the meat is not small rodent, fresh kill.
Oh - I also feed raw egg yolks twice a week - as a snack.
I buy the meat when it's available on sale, and I portion it up into meal-sized packages and freeze it. To feed it, I just pull the baggie out of the freezer, dethaw it in the fridge or a bowl of cold water. I usually have the meals I'm going to feed the next day ready the night before (just easier for me that way). The only supplements I add at every meal are calcium and salmon oil. It's quick and easy.

There are other styles of feeding to be sure. There are a lot of books, and many recipes with some veggies or kelp or whatever. Most on TCS, whether feeding ground food or prey model raw, follow some form of the 80/10/5/5 style. Cats do derive some benefit from veggies, I guess, but they don't eat them in the wild, so at least I don't think they're necessary. In fact... dark leafed veggies can cause problems for the kitties, because of the minerals; carrots provide no benefit, because cats lack the digestive enzymes necessary to convert the beta carotene into Vitamin A (look at the ingredients of ANY kibble or canned - every single one, even if they have carrots - will have a Vitamin A supplement.

Carrot is filler, and beta carotene is color, period, when it comes to cat food.

).
The one thing that is absolutely imperative, whatever style of diet you choose to feed, is to balance the phosphorus in the meat with calcium. Whether you use bones or a supplement, it needs to be fed in the right amount. It's not rocket science, but it is important. And that little bit of liver and kidney (or whatever) may not seem like a lot - and it isn't. But they're SO packed with nutrition, to not include it can also lead to problems down the road. Too many people jump in and feed just meat, and that just doesn't provide everything they need. ...and that said, nutritional deficiencies take a long time to develop, so I also see no problem jumping in and learning as you go.

Click to expand...

A little intimidating, honestly. Lol. The menu that you listed confuses me and makes me feel like using one of those recipes doesn't suffice for a month's worth of meals. o.o Or are you actually just feeding that meat non-ground? I want to use the grinding method, and I liked the first link you posted. My only question is ..

"2 kg [4.4 pounds] raw muscle meat with bones" makes me a litlte confused. How do you know if you're getting the 5% of bone from that? If you just measure up to 4.4 lbs of raw meat and bones, how do you calculate exactly enough to be 5% bone in the full recipe?

If I substitued for different meats in this recipe, would it affect the other ingredient measurements (I'm guessing yes)? Or would I just measure out 4.4 lbs of the different meats and continue as normal?

Thanks so much for your detailed responses. I love them! ^_^

EDIT: When they say to feed 2-4% body weight, does that mean daily or per meal?

If you're interested in making ground, it's probably best to start a new thread about it, so those making ground can chime in. I don't know how they measure the bone content, quite frankly. I know mschauer and WhollyCat make ground. mschauer uses freeze dried bone - a supplement - rather than real bone so she knows exactly how much bone (and calcium) are going in the recipe. :nod: WhollyCat uses bone, so she'll be able to help.

I feed prey model raw - just pieces of meat. Because of my kitty's health issues, I use a calcium supplement with each meal instead of bone-in meals. This is what a meal of duck hearts looks like:


For those that feed prey model raw and use bones, basically they just provide a bone-in meal several times (3 or 4) times a week. Otherwise the meals are just ... pieces of meat, some meals with a little bit of organ. :lol3:

I don't necessarily stick to schedule, but this is the latest meal plan. The AM meal is fed around 8:30am, the dinner meal is fed around - now :lol3: - and the late night meal around 10:30pm - 11:00pm.

I just... cut up pieces of meat, and add the supplements I choose to use.



If this turns up small in the post, you can click on it to make it bigger.


The amounts... the 2% - 4% is daily.

So here are my cats. They're older, not very active, and some need to lose a little weight:



I feed three meals a day, so I divide up their daily amount into the three meals.

When I started feeding raw, I started everyone at 2.25% of their current body weight. If they gained weight, I lowered the amount. Basically, I just worked to identify what kept them stable, and then for the kitties that were overweight, I then started to adjust the amount down, to reduce the calories.

For a kitten, basically you'd feed him or her pretty much as much as she wants to eat. She'd probably eat 8 - 10 ounces of food a day for a few months. :nod: The high protein diet would help her become a lean, muscular kitty. They'll burn more calories naturally, and so as an adult, if 10 - 12 pounds, would probably settle in at around 5 - 6 ounces of food a day. :nod:

And yeah - ground is easier from the perspective of making large batches that are ready to use. I don't find adding liver or kidney to the meat meals overly difficult - but like I said, the cats LIKING the kidney is a different issue, and ground food obviates that issue. :nod: You can also add the supplements in when you make the batches - rather than as I do, at the time of feeding.

LDG said:

For those that feed prey model raw and use bones, basically they just provide a bone-in meal several times (3 or 4) times a week. Otherwise the meals are just ... pieces of meat, some meals with a little bit of organ.

Oct 2012 menu.JPG

• ldg
• Oct 9, 2012

If this turns up small in the post, you can click on it to make it bigger.
The amounts... the 2% - 4% is daily.
So here are my cats. They're older, not very active, and some need to lose a little weight:

Cats meal size body weight %.JPG

• ldg
• Oct 9, 2012

I feed three meals a day, so I divide up their daily amount into the three meals.

When I started feeding raw, I started everyone at 2.25% of their current body weight. If they gained weight, I lowered the amount. Basically, I just worked to identify what kept them stable, and then for the kitties that were overweight, I then started to adjust the amount down, to reduce the calories.
For a kitten, basically you'd feed him or her pretty much as much as she wants to eat. She'd probably eat 8 - 10 ounces of food a day for a few months.

The high protein diet would help her become a lean, muscular kitty. They'll burn more calories naturally, and so as an adult, if 10 - 12 pounds, would probably settle in at around 5 - 6 ounces of food a day.

And yeah - ground is easier from the perspective of making large batches that are ready to use. I don't find adding liver or kidney to the meat meals overly difficult - but like I said, the cats LIKING the kidney is a different issue, and ground food obviates that issue.

You can also add the supplements in when you make the batches - rather than as I do, at the time of feeding.

Click to expand...

For your type of feeding, do you just weigh out the proper amount of whatever meat you're using for that meal, and that's it? What if they don't want to eat the bones you provide, and just eat the meat off? Or does that not happen? Lol. Also, how do you add all of the supplements to chunks?

This sounds like a fun alternative to grinding. ^.^ Either way is nice, though. I'd like to look into both methods.

Just curious, CatTreats, why go ground? With a kitten, you can hop right onto prey model and save yourself a TON of work. Not to mention all the benefits - oral health, feline satisfaction, no supplements! - of feeding whole foods.

I've got six kitties and prepping their meals is very easy. Unlike ground foods, I don't need to buy everything all at one time to make a big "batch". Whenever I get close to running out of a particular meat or organ, I just add that to my next shopping trip, then cut it into big chunks and bag it for the freezer. Every morning, I just take out whatever's going to be fed the next day and throw it in the fridge to thaw. Couldn't be easier.

Here's my weekly menu: Prey Model Raw Menu Example. And here's a calculator for figuring out how much of what to feed: Prey Model Feeding Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003.

Keep in mind that with a kitten, you want to feed four or more times a day, if you possibly can, and they can eat just as much as they want (up to twice what you'd feed an adult kitty).

Also, kittens do much, much better when you get them in pairs, so I'd really recommend you pick up two adorable furballs instead of one.

AC