Hmmm...Science Diet Changing its formula

Allison Forese said:

Hi all, I work for Hill's and wanted to clarify a few things ...We ARE reformulating our Science Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] foods to contain animal proteins such as chicken, chicken meal, fish meal as the first ingredient,

and more natural ingredients with no chicken by-products, artificial colors or flavors

because we are committed to the lifelong health of our animals.

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WELCOME! You should encourage more Hills employees to monitor this forum -

if you pay attention to our concerns, you can truly help millions of Kitties and increase your sales as well. 

That being said, it is really good to hear that Hills has decided to consider the health of our Kitties -

wonder why it took them so long...  

If that is true, clearly, they will eliminate CORN from all of their formulas, in addition to adding some actual meat!  

I feel like we scared her away already, lol. Too bad though.

Awww, I guess I missed her! Anyways, I agree with what SevenWonders said - eliminating the CORN would be absolutely huge for Hills. It is one of the major things that bugs me about the brand too.

Thank you all for the warm welcome! Nope, you didn’t scare me off yet

and I’m glad to hang out with more ever-so-dedicated pet parents.

Sorry for the novel but you all asked a lot of good questions!

Again, there are no plans to use plastic in any Hill’s pet food. All our Science Diet foods have a perfectly adequate shelf life using our natural preservative system. Without going in to too much detail, when you apply for a research patent you may not know where the scientific world will be in five or ten years so your patent should cover future possibilities even if it seems silly or outrageous. At one time, microwaves and cell phones were unbelievable technology, right?

Our goal with this relaunch is certainly not to insult any of you but to show you all that we are listening and that are working to develop better products by incorporating your preferences with our science. We’re not sure why anyone would assume natural ingredients and nutritional balance can’t coexist - we are simply using different (natural) ingredients to deliver the same key nutritional factors we always have.

Now the hot button: CORN! SweetPea24 is absolutely correct; corn is not a complete source of protein and Hill’s has never used it as a sole source of protein but it does provide complimentary amino acids (in addition to energy, fiber and antioxidants) to animal proteins. We’re always looking for the most appropriate balance but we have heard YOU and we have been offering several corn-free products for a while now.

Allison Forese said:

Thank you all for the warm welcome! Nope, you didn’t scare me off yet and I’m glad to hang out with more ever-so-dedicated pet parents. :rub: Sorry for the novel but you all asked a lot of good questions!

Again, there are no plans to use plastic in any Hill’s pet food. All our Science Diet foods have a perfectly adequate shelf life using our natural preservative system. Without going in to too much detail, when you apply for a research patent you may not know where the scientific world will be in five or ten years so your patent should cover future possibilities even if it seems silly or outrageous. At one time, microwaves and cell phones were unbelievable technology, right?

Our goal with this relaunch is certainly not to insult any of you but to show you all that we are listening and that are working to develop better products by incorporating your preferences with our science. We’re not sure why anyone would assume natural ingredients and nutritional balance can’t coexist - we are simply using different (natural) ingredients to deliver the same key nutritional factors we always have.

Now the hot button: CORN! SweetPea24 is absolutely correct; corn is not a complete source of protein and Hill’s has never used it as a sole source of protein but it does provide complimentary amino acids (in addition to energy, fiber and antioxidants) to animal proteins. We’re always looking for the most appropriate balance but we have heard YOU and we have been offering several corn-free products for a while now. :cat:

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Hi Allison! I'm glad your sticking around. You are willing to answer questions for us? Or, address issues rather. Since you've brought up the issue of corn not being the sole source of protein (though we all know it is the major source in many Hills foods) I have a real issue with that y/d food. The dry food has NO MEAT in it. None.

Most of the Hills 'prescription' kibbles are sadly lacking in this area, but this particular food has no meat at all.


Ingredients

Corn Gluten Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Whole Grain Corn, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Egg Product, L-Lysine, Chicken Liver Flavor, Potassium Citrate, Lactic Acid, Dicalcium Phosphate, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Fish Oil, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Sulfate, DL-Methionine, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Tryptophan, Natural Flavor, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate), L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-yd-dry.html

Most of them have "chicken by product meal" as the only "meat" source.

The w/d (for diabetics) is also loaded with corn and other grain.

You can see why people who have educated themselves about feline nutrition are upset about these products. Some of them (such as the c/d) may actually do what they are "designed" to do, but at what cost to the cat's general health? Great cost, in my experience.

So I do hope you will avail yourself of the many threads on diet and nutrition in these forums. I realize we aren't a very large cross section of the general cat owning population. But people are starting to realize, these "prescription" foods are not good food.

Thanks for listening, pass it on okay?.

Allison Forese said:

Thank you all for the warm welcome! Nope, you didn’t scare me off yet

and I’m glad to hang out with more ever-so-dedicated pet parents.

Sorry for the novel but you all asked a lot of good questions!

Again, there are no plans to use plastic in any Hill’s pet food. All our Science Diet foods have a perfectly adequate shelf life using our natural preservative system. Without going in to too much detail, when you apply for a research patent you may not know where the scientific world will be in five or ten years so your patent should cover future possibilities even if it seems silly or outrageous. At one time, microwaves and cell phones were unbelievable technology, right?

Our goal with this relaunch is certainly not to insult any of you but to show you all that we are listening and that are working to develop better products by incorporating your preferences with our science. We’re not sure why anyone would assume natural ingredients and nutritional balance can’t coexist - we are simply using different (natural) ingredients to deliver the same key nutritional factors we always have.

Now the hot button: CORN! SweetPea24 is absolutely correct; corn is not a complete source of protein and Hill’s has never used it as a sole source of protein but it does provide complimentary amino acids (in addition to energy, fiber and antioxidants) to animal proteins. We’re always looking for the most appropriate balance but we have heard YOU and we have been offering several corn-free products for a while now.

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Wow, I did not know that Hills offered products without corn! Can you link me to one of them please? So glad that you are sticking around! Your input is totally appreciated here and we love hearing from you.

Allison Forese said:

...we have heard YOU and we have been offering several corn-free products for a while now.

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Please list them for us - we will take a look at them for sure  

Well, they do have grain-free (which means no corn obviously) options. . .but they don't have a lot of meat :/. I don't know if any of the grain inclusive foods are corn-free. You can look up the ingredients on www.hillspet.com if you want but I can't link to it from my phone.

These are the ingredients for the chicken grain-free food:
Chicken, Pea Protein Concentrate, Potato Starch, Dried Egg Product, Chicken Fat, Dried Potato, Chicken Meal, Meat Protein Isolate, Dried Beet Pulp, Powdered Cellulose, Flaxseed, Chicken Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, Cranberries, Apples, Peas, Carrots, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Broccoli, Calcium Sulfate, Cysteine, Iodized Salt, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Potassium Chloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Willowy said:

Well, they do have grain-free (which means no corn obviously) options. . .but they don't have a lot of meat :/. I don't know if any of the grain inclusive foods are corn-free. You can look up the ingredients on www.hillspet.com if you want but I can't link to it from my phone.

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I've seen grain free foods have corn in them before so I never take it as a rule that it grain free means no corn.

Allison Forese said:

Thank you all for the warm welcome! Nope, you didn’t scare me off yet and I’m glad to hang out with more ever-so-dedicated pet parents. :rub: Sorry for the novel but you all asked a lot of good questions!

Again, there are no plans to use plastic in any Hill’s pet food. All our Science Diet foods have a perfectly adequate shelf life using our natural preservative system. Without going in to too much detail, when you apply for a research patent you may not know where the scientific world will be in five or ten years so your patent should cover future possibilities even if it seems silly or outrageous. At one time, microwaves and cell phones were unbelievable technology, right?

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But if this patent is to cover future technologies and they aren't changing the kibble preservative method as of right now, I still can't see how low density polyethylene could ever be good for pets. I can see having the other items in the list to have themselves covered for the future, but plastic will never be good for pets to ingest, IMHO.

Now the hot button: CORN! SweetPea24 is absolutely correct; corn is not a complete source of protein and Hill’s has never used it as a sole source of protein but it does provide complimentary amino acids (in addition to energy, fiber and antioxidants) to animal proteins. We’re always looking for the most appropriate balance but we have heard YOU and we have been offering several corn-free products for a while now. :cat:

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But as was pointed out, there are foods that you have released where corn is the only (if not the majority) source of protein in the food. If you were working with omnivores, I'd see nothing wrong with that, but when you give it to obligate carnivores it makes no sense.
And the same goes for the corn having " complimentary amino acids (in addition to energy, fiber and antioxidants)." I can understand that some amount of plant material has to be in the dry food in order for it to be able to be formed into a stable shape and what-not, but to say that it has things that are complimentary to the elements of meat just doesn't make any scientific sense because cats don't need any of it.
Also, unless whole pieces of corn kernels are being added to the food, there is no way any antioxidants survive being turned into 'corn gluten meal' and the other forms of corn being put into the food.

I don't have any problem with Hills taking steps to make their foods better, but just what you are saying about the past foods doesn't add up to me. :dk:

Minka said:

I've seen grain free foods have corn in them before so I never take it as a rule that it grain free means no corn.

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Sure, some people think of corn as a vegetable. Yes, and lately food manufacturers are calling it "maize" instead. :lol3:

For anyone who doesn't know, maize IS corn.

otto said:

Sure, some people think of corn as a vegetable. Yes, and lately food manufacturers are calling it "maize" instead. :lol3:

For anyone who doesn't know, maize IS corn.

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That could simply be due to globalization, as "corn" means "grain" or "cereals" in many English-speaking countries.

oh my........  

I never buy Hills and never will.....  corn, maize --  It's nothing but filler for the food so it costs less to make/process and therefore more money for the company.    Science Diet in my opinion is the same as buying Walmart food.  Why vets endorse it is beyond  me.  They change outragous prices and the consumer might as well save their money and buy P*****a or L*****t F******s .  No offense to any vets on this site, but they have to know what they are doing.  If Science Diet wants to be in competion with the big hitters as far as food and "they really care" and want customers that really care about their animals, then they will make MORE changes.  But right now, because vets endorse it, they make big bucks with less bang in their food and hense the filler comes in to play.  Most people "assume" it is great because vet have it in their offices.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Do vets get some kind of kick-back for selling it????

I hate to compare this to pharmaceutical companies and why they do what they do to keep patients coming in, but the similarities are appalling.... 

This is the ingredients for Ideal Balance for cat food, Hills brand.  Corn Free. Chicken is listed first, but it is weighed before it is dried and therefore should probaby not be listed as a first ingredient.  Chicken Meal is 8th.  It should be first.  What the freak is table salt doing in this?  There are three salts listed before taurine.  Potassium Chloride is all this is needed in my opinion.  And I might even go with Choline Chloride, but table salt???  And this is corn free variety.

Ingredients

Chicken, Brown Rice, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Pea Protein Concentrate, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soy Protein Isolate, Chicken Meal, Meat Protein Isolate, Cracked Pearled Barley, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Oat Fiber, Whole Grain Oats, Cranberries, Apples, Chicken Liver Flavor, Calcium Sulfate, L-Lysine, Peas, Carrots, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Broccoli, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Here's a good link:

http://www.petfoodratings.net/glossary.html

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Lets break down the primary ingredients:

Chicken -- Weighed before drying.  This is deceptive.  84 percent water weight.

Brown rice -- Not whole grain.

Brewer's rice -- A cheap substitute for whole grain rice because the 2nd ingredient is not whole grain.  Not hard to figure out why they want both.  Especially with the first ingredient 84 percent water. This is a cheap by-product and left over from another food manufacturing process.

Dried Egg Product -- http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/egg-waste-pet-food-ingredients.html  

Pea Protein Concentrate -- Just another added protein source since chicken meal is #8.

Animal Fat --   “generic” fat source that is most often made up of rendered animal fat, restaurant grease, or other oils too rancid or deemed inedible for humans.  Look for a named fat source, such as poultry or chicken fat, that is naturally preserved
Soy Protein Isolate -- Most animals cannot convert this to protein.  Cats do it better than dogs.  But cheap sub for meat.

Chicken Meal -- Finally the chicken meal, the meat of the matter. Number 8.

And that's the heart of hills.  All these protein sources are to build up the protein content of the total food since #8 is the true protein souce and it's a cheap way of doing it at the animals expense. They add the liver flaor to make it taste good. It is what it is.....

You got a long way to go hills.....

jcribbs said:

This is the ingredients for Ideal Balance for cat food, Hills brand.  Corn Free. Chicken is listed first, but it is weighed before it is dried and therefore should probaby not be listed as a first ingredient.  Chicken Meal is 8th.  It should be first.  What the freak is table salt doing in this?  There are three salts listed before taurine.  Potassium Chloride is all this is needed in my opinion.  And I might even go with Choline Chloride, but table salt???  And this is corn free variety.

Ingredients
Chicken, Brown Rice, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Pea Protein Concentrate, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soy Protein Isolate, Chicken Meal, Meat Protein Isolate, Cracked Pearled Barley, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Oat Fiber, Whole Grain Oats, Cranberries, Apples, Chicken Liver Flavor, Calcium Sulfate, L-Lysine, Peas, Carrots, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Broccoli, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Here's a good link:
http://www.petfoodratings.net/glossary.html
==========================
Lets break down the primary ingredients:

Chicken -- Weighed before drying.  This is deceptive.  84 percent water weight.
Brown rice -- Not whole grain.
Brewer's rice -- A cheap substitute for whole grain rice because the 2nd ingredient is not whole grain.  Not hard to figure out why they want both.  Especially with the first ingredient 84 percent water. This is a cheap by-product and left over from another food manufacturing process.
Dried Egg Product -- http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/egg-waste-pet-food-ingredients.html  
Pea Protein Concentrate -- Just another added protein source since chicken meal is #8.
Animal Fat --   “generic” fat source that is most often made up of rendered animal fat, restaurant grease, or other oils too rancid or deemed inedible for humans.  Look for a named fat source, such as poultry or chicken fat, that is naturally preserved
Soy Protein Isolate -- Most animals cannot convert this to protein.  Cats do it better than dogs.  But cheap sub for meat.
Chicken Meal -- Finally the chicken meal, the meat of the matter. Number 8.

And that's the heart of hills.  All these protein sources are to build up the protein content of the total food since #8 is the true protein souce and it's a cheap way of doing it at the animals expense. They add the liver flaor to make it taste good. It is what it is.....

You got a long way to go hills.....

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Yes, and almost none of it (the protein sources) does the cat any good, because as obligate carnivores, they do not derive nutrition from plant sources.

Great post!

otto, while there are many, many reasons to feed a cat a species-appropriate diet - and that has clearly been defined recently in two important studies:

1) A Waltham study - Hewson-Hughes et al. 2011. Geometric analysis of macronutrient selection in the adult domestic cat, Felis catus, J Exp Biol 214, 1039-1051 http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/6/1039.full#R22

2) Plantinga et al. 2011. Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats, Br J Nutr. 2011 Oct;106 Suppl 1:S35-48. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434

as I know you know, it isn't accurate to say that cats derive no nutrition from plant-based sources. If that were true, cats eating foods with little animal protein would be dead, and they're not. They may have health issues, and they may die younger, but the do derive SOME nutrition from it.

Dr. Mark Peterson, a veterinary endocrinologist, discusses metabolism, basically pointing up the importance of animal protein here: http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/se...0-05:00&max-results=20&start=14&by-date=false

And cats definitely have a metabolism specialized for an obligate carnivore, that includes:

- An inability to make vitamin A from beta-carotene and require preformed vitamin A from animal sources. In cat food, carrots are fiber and filler. Beta carotene is color.

- Using hexokinase to metabolize glucose within individual cells, unlike the dogs and omnivores, where glucokinase is used. Hexokinase works at a slower rate than glucokinase. This affects the time it takes to metabolise carbohydrates. It may also contribute to incomplete digestion of carbohydrates, which can disrupt the gut flora (I can provide references if anyone is further interested)

- the lack of amylase in their saliva, as dogs do. Amylase is an enzyme that aids in breaking down carbohydrates. This, again, indicates that a cat is not "designed" to utilize carbs (though many studies show they CAN).

- The process of gluconeogenesis (protein synthesis (oxidation)) in cats is always active (Dr. Peterson also addresses this: this accounts for the cats' high dietary protein requirement).

- "Like other mammals, cats cannot synthesize the essential fatty acid (EFA), linoleic acid (18:2n-6; LA). However, unlike other mammals, cats also have a limited capacity to synthesize arachidonic acid (20:n-6; AA) from LA and, similarly, eicosapentaenoic acid (20%-3; EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3; DHA) from or-linolenic acid (1 8:3n-3; ALA). These features of fatty acid metabolism underscore the reliance of cats on other mammals to make these important fatty acids for them."
Bauer 1997. Fatty acid metabolism in domestic cats (Felis catus) and cheetahs
(Acinonyx jubatas) Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (1997), 56, 1013-1024 http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...cover=Y&code=c6097209163fabf3215d621ee092fd38

This is not an exhaustive list.

So while cats can derive nutrition from plants, they certainly are not designed to, and they do not naturally eat them in the wild.

I didn't know, actually. But I'll take your word for it. However, I will not buy cat foods that rave about all the "healthy" fruits and veggies or "whole grains" in them because 1) I dislike that kind of bull and hate being lied to, it's all such a gimmick, full of baloney and, well you get my point, and 2) I don't want my cats eating them.

Oh yes, there are heaps of studies on things like which carbs are most digestable for cats, which oils are better utilized, etc.

....which leads me to what I've been thinking about this afternoon in relation to this thread.

When making the announcement about the reformulation, Hill's said,

The company made the decision to reformulate the Science Diet petfoods because some consumers were making product choices based primarily on a set criteria for ingredients, rather than the overall promise of nutrition and clinical research.

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Obviously the way they worded this is why Willowy had the reaction she did as re: insulting their customer base. Oh yeah, we're all trendy robots that want chicken instead of brewer's rice as the first ingredient. It is insulting. I'm not looking for "a set criteria for ingredients." I want to feed my obligate carnivore a species-appropriate diet.

What I ask is... why was all that money spent on looking for a "promise of nutrition" via clinical research on ingredients that cats weren't meat to utilize as the source of their nutrition in the first place?
.

Purina presented the results of analysis of a relationship of the use of acidifiers in carbohydrate-laden food and the apparent relationship to CRF in cats as far back as 1998:
.

Although species-related differences in renal acid excretion may contribute to this apparent difference, it is likely that the high incidence of uremic acidosis in cats relates, at least in part, to the acidifying nature of many cat foods. It has been speculated that routine use of acidifying diets may contribute to the relatively high incidence of CRF observed in cats over the past decade. Further, uremic acidosis may contribute to the chronic wasting typical of CRF....... of cats with chronic renal failure, approximately 80% had metabolic acidosis.

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Here's the link: http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1998_vol3.pdf

Yet Hill's c/d for urinary health dry food continues to have 42% carbohydrates on a dry matter basis, and uses methionine to lower the urine pH that is raised by that very high carbohydrate content. Has Hill's even run a clinical trial to measure the impact of a high animal-based protein, low carbohydrate diet on urine pH and bladder health?

Maybe Hill's consumers are asking for a different product profile because they are learning: learning that their cats are carnivores, and that trying to get around that results in health problems that people are not seeing in their cats fed diets appropriate for the species.

I would hope that recent studies indicating that our fat, diabetic cats have their diabetes controlled with diet (high animal protein, low carb) rather than insulin if caught early enough sends a strong message to those who prefer "science" to "nature".... it seems they are converging, and the science is beginning to support the idea that our cats do best on the diet nature intended them to eat.

Science Diet line of products is  only about money.  MEAT is more expensive than  veggie-by-products or rice or egg product and the company would not make as much money if CHICKEN MEAL were the first ingredient.  That's why they use alternative ways to add protein. It's cheaper for them to make. It used to be the main big hitter as far as animal food, but then people got smarter and Hills did not make as much money.  Their "new design" is just another gimmick.

The only way, Hills will ever come up to par and quick jacking around with consumers sensabilities, is when the vets say "Enough!" and refuse to sell it and admit publically that it's not all that great.   
 

jcribbs said:

Science Diet line of products is  only about money.  MEAT is more expensive than  veggie-by-products or rice or egg product and the company would not make as much money if CHICKEN MEAL were the first ingredient.  That's why they use alternative ways to add protein. It's cheaper for them to make. It used to be the main big hitter as far as animal food, but then people got smarter and Hills did not make as much money.  Their "new design" is just another gimmick.

The only way, Hills will ever come up to par and quick jacking around with consumers sensabilities, is when the vets say "Enough!" and refuse to sell it and admit publically that it's not all that great.   
 

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You are completely right! I have worked at various veterinary clinics as a technician and when clients came to me to reccomend food, I never recommended the Science diet that we sold. I tried to recommend the various better quality foods and the fact that cats really should have more canned than dry, but I even convinced several clients to choose better quality dryfoods as well. I even convinced my boss how crappy Science diet was and he started recommending different foods as maintenence diets for dogs and cats, but we still would sell the rx diets when needed. Some of the foods I'd recommend were Wellness, Blue, TOTW, Felidae, Natura brands, Orijen and Acana. I would tell owners with male cats to be careful with grain frees because of UTI issues and also try to get them to eat canned. I currently feed my male and female cat a mix of grain inclusive and grain free dry, with plenty of canned, but they also both drink a good amount of water so haven't had to deal with any UTI's  My dog gets a grain free dry and canned and Science Diet is never in this house, even when I could get discounts on it at work.

I was about to say that there are a couple big threads about gf & males; the discussion should probably take place over there so those coming to the forums can find their answers easier. :nod:

Im still waiting on the Hills rep to come back.