Grim's Vet Visit: hunger pains, teeth and the future

Took Grim in this afternoon with three pressing things on my mind:
1. The mole on his leg
2. Probably in need of a dental
3. His constant increased hunger

The vet was completely unconcerned about the mole. (Yay ) He said it probably was a pigment change caused by a scab that was there at some point. As long as it doesn't grow, there are no worries.

He opened his mouth and looked at his teeth. They were worse than I thought. He opened the right side and I saw a back tooth that was all yellow and yucky. But then he opened the left side and it was even worse. His back molar was completely brown and the gums around it inflamed. I'm worried it will have to come out. His dental is scheduled for Monday.

Their scales showed him as 12.8lbs, down from 14.1lbs back in May. Like they have been in the past, they were worried about the possibility of hyperthyroidism causing his weight loss. I reminded them that he had just had bloodwork done to determine his thyroid was fine last time I was in. They pulled up the chart and indeed his T4 levels were perfect back in May. However, he reminded me that just because they are okay now, doesn't necessarily mean they will stay that way. They could stay the same for years or they could change next month. He said we would keep an eye on everything, especially because of his hunger. He said that it doesn't make sense that his hunger would change when he's been fed the same amount for months on end. (I didn't tell him about my feeding the NV and raw, but Grim's hunger started before I'd made any changes so I don't think it's part of the equation. However, he did talk about how cats tend to get fat because we feed them too many carbs and not enough protein so.. who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky!)
The twist in all of this is that when I brought him home I weighed him again so I could get it in pounds and ounces for my chart. He weighed 13lb 10oz! So I don't know if he was wiggly or what, but I'm going to ignore their scale's measurement for now.

Then came the hard part. We talked about his FIV and what it means in terms of time. It's basically a time bomb, waiting for something to fail, and while I already knew that, it was a lot harder hearing it from the vet. There were a couple points in time where I thought I might have to put him down before. Back when he had UTI's all the time and both his ears were constantly infected and oozy and his fur was all chewed down because of itchiness and he could barely groom himself because of his weight, I thought "If this doesn't get any better... I have to put him out of his misery."
Luckily that all passed and he's doing so much better, but I worry something will spring up on us when I don't expect it.

I just wish I knew how much time I have.

Awww honey
Honey, all you can do is to give him the best, and hope for the best. You are giving him the best.... I think a raw diet will improve his life tremendously, and who knows? Nobody can tell how long he will stay around.... He might have the same lifespan as any other cat..... One day at a time hun!
I need to check the feeding qty thread again.... I don't remember, but how much are you feeding him and how old is he?
Also, has the vet spoken to you about stomatitis? A lot of fiv+ kitties have stomatitis, and for what you are describing, he might have it....
You are in Denton, my clinic/dentist is here in Dallas.... If you need info.... they treat without extractions.... It was amazing for Bugsy. We are off medication now since the inflammation has improved so much with raw.... But I am following closely- not taking this as permanent; stomatitis is quite the pain in the neck. Can be controlled, but not cured, we will see.
Anyways hun, hang in there, and be positive! Take how well he is doing, and think he is going to be doing better and better! Time bomb? Who is there to say? No one can say, imho if that bomb will ever explode. Fiv is not a death sentence hun, really isn't....

Look how far you've come! :rub: :heart2: The bottom line is that you've brought him through so much, and now you're helping him even more - you'll be feeding him raw (and Chumley, our FIV+ boy, FYI, is doing AMAZING on it. :nod: He's on NO medication or herbal supplements of any kind now. Just probiotics and krill oil!) and that will REALLY help boost his immune system. It's an anti-inflammatory diet that allows his immune system to focus its work on what needs to be done, rather than fight chronic inflammation from ingredients that don't agree with him and that he doesn't need. :nod:

I don't know when Grim's last dental was, but FIV+ kitties are prone to dental problems. Dentals every six months are recommended. Chum had severe gingivitis that we had to treat with antibiotics, and he needed three teeth extractions just this past April. But the vet suggested I bring him back next year, not in six months: they feel strongly that the raw diet will reduce his need for dental work. :cross: We'll see - we may take him in next month for a check-up, just because I can't poke around in his mouth to see what his gums look like.

We can't worry about what the future holds. We know going into this that we should outlive our kitties. :heart2: Just keep doing the best you can for him, and take it one day at a time.

And if those nasty teeth need to come out, they need to come out. He'll be FINE - better for it, even. :nod:

Carolina said:

Awww honey
Honey, all you can do is to give him the best, and hope for the best. You are giving him the best.... I think a raw diet will improve his life tremendously, and who knows? Nobody can tell how long he will stay around.... He might have the same lifespan as any other cat..... One day at a time hun!
I need to check the feeding qty thread again.... I don't remember, but how much are you feeding him and how old is he?
Also, has the vet spoken to you about stomatitis? A lot of fiv+ kitties have stomatitis, and for what you are describing, he might have it....
You are in Denton, my clinic/dentist is here in Dallas.... If you need info.... they treat without extractions.... It was amazing for Bugsy. We are off medication now since the inflammation has improved so much with raw.... But I am following closely- not taking this as permanent; stomatitis is quite the pain in the neck. Can be controlled, but not cured, we will see.
Anyways hun, hang in there, and be positive! Take how well he is doing, and think he is going to be doing better and better! Time bomb? Who is there to say? No one can say, imho if that bomb will ever explode. Fiv is not a death sentence hun, really isn't....

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Thanks.. I do try to give him the best. He's spoiled beyond rotten.

He's been eating 1 - 5.5 or 6oz can per day for the last... 8 months at least. And while he would beg every once in a while, it seemed to be the normal kind.
Back around June, I started him on a more consistant schedule. I used to feed him 4-5 times a day, but the problem was that it would equal only a small bite of food per meal and he wouldn't feel full and look around for more food afterwards. So I started feeding him at 6AM and 6PM, half a can. That seemed to work better. He would now eat, lick himself and then pass out for a few hours. xD
End of July/early August is when the crazy hunger started, I believe. Before, pretty precicsly at 6am, he'd tickle me in the face with his whiskers and I'd get up to feed him. Or if I was already awake/hadn't goine to bed yet, I'd make sure to wait till 6 to feed him. But now he was waking me up at 4 and then 5 and then 6 to feed him. I've had nights where he literally wakes me up every 10-20 minutes... And then everytime I walk past his food bowl, he'd be under my legs, tripping me and meowing like I hadn't fed him in a week.
Now, forward a little more, late end of August is when I started feeding the NV. I rotated so he would get half a can of wet one meal and then 2 medallions for the second meal. Hungry crazies continued. Then, a fw days ago, I bought the pork neck pieces and fed him one for dinner. I felt like it seemed plenty big enough to make him full, but afterwards he tried to get in the trash to steal the container it was in, so idk...
Then yesterday I took him to the vet and he had a harder time of it than usual, with the vet trying to look at his leg and inside his mouth, and I felt bad because I had forgotten to bring his treats with me like I always do, so when I got home I gave him half a can of wet plus a small pork piece and that still wasn't enough to stop the begging!!!
I've always said that Grim would eat until he exploded if I let him, but I really do beleive it. I'm positive I could put down 3 cans of wet a day, and he would eat it all..

As for stomatitis, I don't think the vet mentioned it, but we did talk about gingivitis and dental disease in FIV cats. He just said we'd have to keep a close eye on it. I was surprised he didn't tell me Grim needed a dental after looking at his teeth. He did try to push vaccines though. I'm not sure about giving him the rabies one again; he only just had it in 2011. I might give his FVRCP because I have no records of when he last got it.

LDG said:

Look how far you've come! :rub: :heart2: The bottom line is that you've brought him through so much, and now you're helping him even more - you'll be feeding him raw (and Chumley, our FIV+ boy, FYI, is doing AMAZING on it. :nod: He's on NO medication or herbal supplements of any kind now. Just probiotics and krill oil!) and that will REALLY help boost his immune system. It's an anti-inflammatory diet that allows his immune system to focus its work on what needs to be done, rather than fight chronic inflammation from ingredients that don't agree with him and that he doesn't need. :nod:

I don't know when Grim's last dental was, but FIV+ kitties are prone to dental problems. Dentals every six months are recommended. Chum had severe gingivitis that we had to treat with antibiotics, and he needed three teeth extractions just this past April. But the vet suggested I bring him back next year, not in six months: they feel strongly that the raw diet will reduce his need for dental work. :cross: We'll see - we may take him in next month for a check-up, just because I can't poke around in his mouth to see what his gums look like.

We can't worry about what the future holds. We know going into this that we should outlive our kitties. :heart2: Just keep doing the best you can for him, and take it one day at a time.

And if those nasty teeth need to come out, they need to come out. He'll be FINE - better for it, even. :nod:

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It makes me feel better to know Chumley is doing well on raw. I am a bit worried that because Grim is already compromised*, even though his guts are originally built to handle bacteria, that he won't be able to and he'll get really sick. I'm trying to ignore it though because I know raw could also do him so much good.
If he has to lose some teeth, won't that make eating raw so much harder though? I'd love for him to be able to gnaw on bones to help keep his teeth clean.


I feel a bit better today guys, thanks.





* My vet did a test to see how far along his FIV is or something of the like and they said he's pretty compromised. I'll have to try to get a copy of the results because I can never remember this stuff on my own.

Well, thruth is, we all started with "compromised Kitties" :nod: Trust you me - I was freaking out about putting Bugsy on raw for the very same reasons. He doesn't have FIV, but he just might as well. His immune system is a mess.
Laurie knows. ANYTHING, ANYTHING I give to Bugsy, he has a reaction to it - supplement, food, drugs, vaccines.... Think about it - One dose of Clavamox gave the boy 14 months of violent diarrhea. Rabies vaccine almost killed him. Fish oil? Forget it!
I can go on and on and on...... BUT - Raw, with all the feared "bacterial load" nah - smooth sailing. He is the strongest of the bunch, and has improved his life like you couldn't believe it.

Here are a couple of things I am taking from your post: If the thyroid test is ok - which it is.... and for what you are telling us..... Hun, I have to say, yes, he is spoiled rotten and he has trained you well! He wakes you up because he CAN. Because you GET UP to feed him.
Sorry to say this..... But..... momma got to be strong here..... Schedule..... routine, and don't give into his charms and screams!
Don't feed him right off bed either.... Get up, drink your coffee, make him wait, then feed him - every day, on the same place, the same amounts per meal. Make him expect his meals at meal time, at his meal place.
Only if you are late he is allowed to wake you up - I give him that! Otherwise....
My cats have such a routine, that at meal times they go to the kitchen. Granted - they go a bit earlier - start gathering around giving me clues
If I sleep late on weekends - you betcha! Lucky is the alarm clock :lol3: But not a minute earlier than feeding time
They eat every day, on the same place, at the same time, on the same plates....... If I can tell you just ONE thing that will make your life easier... is this.

Set this up and do it. And DON'T do it right when you wake up!!

On the vaccines: I would talk to Laurie about this one - I am no longer vaccinating Bugsy My vet is giving me a letter to send to the city due to his reactions. And I am not going to ever vaccinate mine again with the 4-in-one vaccine. Vaccines are not good for their immune systems... And if he is an older kitty..... he has immunity already. He should be fine.... Besindes, he is an inside cat :dk:

Losing some teeth will not compromise his ability to eat raw - Bugsy has lost quite a few, and he gets by just fine :nod:

:nod:

I'm a little confused by Grim's vet, actually. What tests can be done to indicate how compromised he is due to the FIV? And if they're this familiar with FIV, why are they vaccinating him with anything? If he's received vaccinations in the past, he does NOT need vaccinations now.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245463/do-indoor-cats-really-need-vaccines

As to concerns about their ability to handle raw.... it actually HELPS restore the proper balance to their GI system, which helps their immune system. I get this now. :nod: I never finished exploring this, but what I did find was instructive: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/241072/the-digestive-system-immune-system-connection

I wasn't as worried about starting Chumley on raw as I was Lazlo. He was at the end of six months of chemo, on pred, with a seriously suppressed immune system. I started all of the cats on the Natural Factors acidophilus+bifidus (double strength) supplement two weeks before I started feeding raw - though on the advice of our holistic vet, Chumley had already been on it since October 2010.

So I think if you don't add stress to his immune system via vaccinations he doesn't need as an indoor-only kitty, and you help support his good gut flora with a good probiotic, you should continue to see him get better and better! :heart2: :rub:

VERY good point on the Probiotics Laurie :nod: I can't say enough either..... Especially for these little guys.... If Bugsy doesn't take his on his first meal in the AM, he WILL have digestive issues later in the day. It keeps him in check like clockwork. I am now giving the same one Laurie gives, and it is working great!

Carolina said:

Here are a couple of things I am taking from your post: If the thyroid test is ok - which it is.... and for what you are telling us..... Hun, I have to say, yes, he is spoiled rotten and he has trained you well! He wakes you up because he CAN. Because you GET UP to feed him.
Sorry to say this..... But..... momma got to be strong here..... Schedule..... routine, and don't give into his charms and screams!
Don't feed him right off bed either.... Get up, drink your coffee, make him wait, then feed him - every day, on the same place, the same amounts per meal. Make him expect his meals at meal time, at his meal place.
Only if you are late he is allowed to wake you up - I give him that! Otherwise....
My cats have such a routine, that at meal times they go to the kitchen. Granted - they go a bit earlier - start gathering around giving me clues
If I sleep late on weekends - you betcha! Lucky is the alarm clock :lol3: But not a minute earlier than feeding time
They eat every day, on the same place, at the same time, on the same plates....... If I can tell you just ONE thing that will make your life easier... is this.

Set this up and do it. And DON'T do it right when you wake up!!

On the vaccines: I would talk to Laurie about this one - I am no longer vaccinating Bugsy My vet is giving me a letter to send to the city due to his reactions. And I am not going to ever vaccinate mine again with the 4-in-one vaccine. Vaccines are not good for their immune systems... And if he is an older kitty..... he has immunity already. He should be fine.... Besindes, he is an inside cat :dk:

Losing some teeth will not compromise his ability to eat raw - Bugsy has lost quite a few, and he gets by just fine :nod:

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That's the thing, I don't get up! I push him away, roll over, ignore him, everything, but he always comes back. I just pray for 6am to come so I can feed him and he'll leave me alone. I'm always advising people not to give in because I KNOW about begging. I don't feed him scraps, I don't feed him early, I don't do anything that rewards him for bad behavior. Me feeding him extra after the vet wasn't because he was asking, only because he had a hard time there but was still Such a good boy as usual, no hissing, he's never swiped at anyone; they thought he was declawed because no one has ever been scratched!
Like I said, he used to wake me up at 6am almost on the dot to be fed; I'd get up, give him his half can (in the bathroom where it always is) and then go back to sleep. He'd eat and then come curl up with me and sleep together the rest of the night. And even if I'm not here, he still gets meals at the same times. I've got a meal timer I set before I leave.
I don't know what happened.

Yea, I'm assuming he's had all his vaccines, but I don't know for sure. I'm not sure what I'm going to tell my vet though.

Okay. If Budgsy is doing fine, then that makes me feel better about it.

LDG said:

:nod:

I'm a little confused by Grim's vet, actually. What tests can be done to indicate how compromised he is due to the FIV? And if they're this familiar with FIV, why are they vaccinating him with anything? If he's received vaccinations in the past, he does NOT need vaccinations now.

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Idk, there was a test they did that I guess counts T-helper (CD4+) cells, and the lower amount of them they are, the more the cat is compromised. When I take him in for his dental, I'm going to ask for a copy of the paperwork.
They did say because he's FIV+ they don't want to give him the FELV vaccine because it's too risky, but I guess they think the others are fine.. :dk:
Maybe I should titer test him?

Ah, OK. Yes: http://www.fivtherapy.com has details.

Yeah - if he's indoor only, I can't begin to imagine why they want to vaccinate. I know Carolina's vet can send a letter in place of a rabies vaccination, so I don't see why your vet can't. :dk: If you're concerned, do the titre testing. But if you haven't read up on the issues of vaccinating and the problem with vaccination protocols in pets, you really might want to take a look at the link to the thread I provided above where it was discussed. Links to a lot of important information in there. :nod:

LDG said:

Ah, OK. Yes: http://www.fivtherapy.com has details.

Yeah - if he's indoor only, I can't begin to imagine why they want to vaccinate. I know Carolina's vet can send a letter in place of a rabies vaccination, so I don't see why your vet can't. :dk: If you're concerned, do the titre testing. But if you haven't read up on the issues of vaccinating and the problem with vaccination protocols in pets, you really might want to take a look at the link to the thread I provided above where it was discussed. Links to a lot of important information in there. :nod:

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Awesome, thanks. Now I can get his CD4+ number and actually know what it means!

Minka said:

Awesome, thanks. Now I can get his CD4+ number and actually know what it means!

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Yep - In Dallas County (Don't know Denton), the law doesn't accept titers in lieu of the vaccine, and vaccination for rabies is required by law. However, your vet CAN sand a letter to the city saying that vaccinating the pet will compromise/put the health/life of the pet in risk, and the pet is inside, therefore has no risk of contamination other pets/people... etc. This is what I am going to do with Bugsy.
Because of the risk of distemper (my two sitters are Vet techs, and distemper can be carried on clothes and shoes), I did run a titer for the FVRCP on Bugsy, and he was fine - I am not going to vaccinate any of my pets for this anymore.
Since your kitties are inside, you should NEVER vaccinate against FeLV - that's the worst one!
I do rabies, purevax, for Lucky and Hope, and IF the city sends me the letter......... if they don't...... lo siento.

Carolina said:

Yep - In Dallas County (Don't know Denton), the law doesn't accept titers in lieu of the vaccine, and vaccination for rabies is required by law. However, your vet CAN sand a letter to the city saying that vaccinating the pet will compromise/put the health/life of the pet in risk, and the pet is inside, therefore has no risk of contamination other pets/people... etc. This is what I am going to do with Bugsy.
Because of the risk of distemper (my two sitters are Vet techs, and distemper can be carried on clothes and shoes), I did run a titer for the FVRCP on Bugsy, and he was fine - I am not going to vaccinate any of my pets for this anymore.
Since your kitties are inside, you should NEVER vaccinate against FeLV - that's the worst one!
I do rabies, purevax, for Lucky and Hope, and IF the city sends me the letter......... if they don't...... lo siento.

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I can't imagine how the city would find out if Grim didn't have his rabies shot. And even if they did, that they would waste the time sending me a letter.
AND the tag just says 2011, so until January 2013, I don't have to worry about it. =P

Minka said:

I can't imagine how the city would find out if Grim didn't have his rabies shot. And even if they did, that they would waste the time sending me a letter.
AND the tag just says 2011, so until January 2013, I don't have to worry about it. =P

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Every time your vet vaccinates, by LAW (at least in Dallas), your vet needs to report that he vaccinated that cat, with the vaccine lot #, etc. The information is sent to the city, and the license is given. I receive letters from the city every year. In these letters, it says if I don't vaccinate I will be breaking the law and risking a fine of $2,000.

I asked my vet if he could vaccinate Hope and not send the letter in, and he said no; it would be against the law - all the vaccines he gives are tracked and need to be accounted for.

In addition to that, I pay the city $7.00 per cat to renew their license, no matter what, every year.

So, yeah, the City will find out.

Carolina said:

Every time your vet vaccinates, by LAW (at least in Dallas), your vet needs to report that he vaccinated that cat, with the vaccine lot #, etc. The information is sent to the city, and the license is given. I receive letters from the city every year. In these letters, it says if I don't vaccinate I will be breaking the law and risking a fine of $2,000.

I asked my vet if he could vaccinate Hope and not send the letter in, and he said no; it would be against the law - all the vaccines he gives are tracked and need to be accounted for.

In addition to that, I pay the city $7.00 per cat to renew their license, no matter what, every year.

So, yeah, the City will find out.

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To be honest, I'm not even sure if Grim Has a license. Neither myself nor either of my parents have ever received any letters from the city about our cats. Most people don't ever take their cats back to the vet after the initial spay/neuter/vaccine, so honestly, I'm not too sure anything would ever happen. :dk:

Minka said:

To be honest, I'm not even sure if Grim Has a license. Neither myself nor either of my parents have ever received any letters from the city about our cats. Most people don't ever take their cats back to the vet after the initial spay/neuter/vaccine, so honestly, I'm not too sure anything would ever happen. :dk:

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Then, to be honest, you are lucky, and I wouldn't push my luck.... I just wouldn't vaccinate..... There is NO need to it, IMHO. Vet - yes..... Vaccines, as an adult......... nah. ESPECIALLY on a cat with FIV. No way. I wouldn't.

Carolina said:

Minka said:

To be honest, I'm not even sure if Grim Has a license. Neither myself nor either of my parents have ever received any letters from the city about our cats. Most people don't ever take their cats back to the vet after the initial spay/neuter/vaccine, so honestly, I'm not too sure anything would ever happen. :dk:

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Then, to be honest, you are lucky, and I wouldn't push my luck.... I just wouldn't vaccinate..... There is NO need to it, IMHO. Vet - yes..... Vaccines, as an adult......... nah. ESPECIALLY on a cat with FIV. No way. I wouldn't.

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Yea, I don't think I will, I just don't know how to tell my vet...

Minka said:

Yea, I don't think I will, I just don't know how to tell my vet...

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Hun, we are our babies advocates.... Our vets do have a medical degree.... BUT we hold the power of decision. You simply say "I decided to not vaccinate him". And that's that. It is YOUR decision, it is YOUR baby :heart3:, not HIS. No one, no one has your babies best interest at heart better that you do. No one. Never forget this.
Don't ever just take the word of the vet as the law and run with it - I tell you with 100% certainty, had I done that, Bugsy would been dead a long time ago (God Forbid!).
I had a dog called Webber, who died a few years ago at 14..... Had I done gone with the vets word.... he would died at 6 months of age.
We fight a good fight for our little ones.... because they are OUR little ones. Don't ever give up your rights because you feel guilty of discussing what is best for the health and well being of your baby with your vet. If he is not on the same page as you are, then get another one who is.

Carolina said:

Hun, we are our babies advocates.... Our vets do have a medical degree.... BUT we hold the power of decision. You simply say "I decided to not vaccinate him". And that's that. It is YOUR decision, it is YOUR baby :heart3:, not HIS. No one, no one has your babies best interest at heart better that you do. No one. Never forget this.
Don't ever just take the word of the vet as the law and run with it - I tell you with 100% certainty, had I done that, Bugsy would been dead a long time ago (God Forbid!).
I had a dog called Webber, who died a few years ago at 14..... Had I done gone with the vets word.... he would died at 6 months of age.
We fight a good fight for our little ones.... because they are OUR little ones. Don't ever give up your rights because you feel guilty of discussing what is best for the health and well being of your baby with your vet. If he is not on the same page as you are, then get another one who is.

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I couldn't have put it better! If you feel more comfortable, you can say "Because of his compromised immune system, and he's an indoor-only cat, I've decided not to vaccinate him."