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The lost grave of King Richard III (Update: His skeleton has been identified) - Page 3

post #61 of 182
Thread Starter 
This is an interesting article that tries to explain how Richard III, Henry VII and Shakespeare influenced modern democracies:

Looking For … and Finding … Richard
Quote:
But whether you believe him to have been a 15th century version of Bobby Kennedy or not, the discovery of what may well be his bones will open up what should be an entertaining debate about the rights and wrongs of the last battles of England’s War of the Roses as well as about the role of historical myths in shaping a country’s national identity. Though Richard may have been nothing like Shakespeare’s portrait, it must be understood that the play’s contribution to the English — and by extension, American — belief that evil rulers should be overthrown played a part in the formation of a mindset that paved the way for modern democracy.
post #62 of 182
SHakespeare was a great one for telling 'sad stories of the fall of kings' - Richard II, Henry VI and Julius Caesar also point to the disasters of having weak or evil rulers.

In my course on ethnic conflict I always used to teach the importance of finding the foundation myths of whatever nationalities, tribes or religious groups were involved. Otherwise you can't understand what makes people tick, or how they are likely to react. Shakespeare was certainly responsible for crystallising and verbalising many British/|American ones.
post #63 of 182
Thread Starter 
Shakespeare's portrayal of Richard III as the epitome of a tyrannical king was heavily borrowed from Thomas More, who wrote a history of him somewhere around 1515, but never completed it. More was 7 at the time of the Battle of Bosworth and presumably greatly influenced by Richard III's nemesis, John Morton, whom More served as a page for two years, but some view it as an allegory which More decided wasn't subtle enough to publish during Henry VII's corrupt reign. It was published posthumously by a family member.
post #64 of 182
Yes, most of Shakespeare's history plays were written to justify and glorify the Tudors. Poor Thomas More - his loyalty to them got his head chopped off!
post #65 of 182
Thread Starter 
I've never felt the same way about Thomas More since learning that he had people tortured and "heretics" burnt at the stake - that's something they forgot to mention at Catholic school. So much for the "sainted Thomas More". What a bloody period in British history!
post #66 of 182
Thread Starter 
‘King Richard Factor’ boost for business
Quote:
CONFIRMATION that Richard III was buried in Leicester would create a king-sized boost to the county’s economy, according to business leaders.

The Leicester and Leicestershire Enterprise Partnership says the tourism industry already employs 32,500 people in the county and is worth £1.3bn to the local economy - figures that can only grow with the ‘Richard factor’.
post #67 of 182
Yes, More was a complicated man. He was truly 'A man for all seasons'. It was a horrible time to be alive, people were insensitive and intolerant to an incredible degree, whatever religion they belonged to. I studied More's 'Utopia' at school - and I can understand why Marx and Lenin liked it - if it was meant to be a satire it failed miserably.
post #68 of 182
Thread Starter 
York is going to put up a fight, too.

York goes global in its fight for Richard's royal bones
Quote:
The Richard III Foundation urges the people of Yorkshire to join with us in calling for Richard, our hero and martyr, to be brought home to the city that he loved, and where he is still loved to this day.

Richard, who was the last Plantagenet king, and the last English monarch to die in battle, had strong connections with the city of York and the county of Yorkshire. He spent much of his youth at Middleham castle and for 12 years he ruled the North of England on behalf of his elder brother, King Edward IV, earning a widespread reputation for fair-mindedness and justice.

After becoming king, he visited York several times and was showered with gifts each time. His son, Edward, was crowned Prince of Wales whilst in York.

From what I've read, although he originally planned to be buried in York Minster, after he became king he apparently decided he wanted to be buried at Windsor Castle, because he left a spot open for himself when he had Henry VI reburied near the altar in St. George's Chapel. That spot, across from his brother's grave, has meanwhile been used for King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra.
post #69 of 182
He did love York and as you quoted, had strong links with the city as Lord of the North under his brother. At that time, it was safer to be in the North than the South, as Richard set up a very effective system of sheriffs and law courts, though of course miscreants were hanged for many seemingly trivial offenses. But the Northerners loved him for it.
post #70 of 182
Thread Starter 
Some people involved in the Leicester dig really aren't happy about York wanting his remains:
Richard III dig: American group in bid to have King's remains buried in York
Quote:
However, Leicester mayor Sir Peter Soulsby and Philippa Langley, from the Richard III Society, have reiterated their determination to place the bones in Leicester Cathedral.

Ms Langley, who began the search for Richard in 2008, said: "Initiating this project took three years and included having to go through the Ministry of Justice, royal coroner and the palaces.

"When I started the process everybody said the remains should stay in Leicester.

"There's a huge case for that because he's been here for the past 527 years and it's the Leicester authority which has paid for the dig and provided assistance from the start."

She said York Minster waited 15 years before agreeing to house a stained-glass window dedicated to Richard.

"It worries me to think the same will happen with the remains," she said.

"The problem is that York Minster is full and there might not be anywhere for him.
...
University of Leicester archaeologist Richard Buckley, who led the dig, said: "The remains, assuming it is Richard III, were buried in good faith in the Grey Friars church and should remain in the parish.

"They've been here for 527 years and I see no reason to move them."
post #71 of 182
Thread Starter 
There's nothing new, because the DNA results aren't in. This was in the online Leicester newspaper today:
Skeleton discovery during Richard III dig a ‘huge shock’, says king’s descendant
post #72 of 182
Thread Starter 
Slideshow: Artist breathes life into search for Richard III

This is different.
Quote:
A comic artist from Cambridge has created a set of stunning visuals to describe a university’s search for King Richard III.
Emma Vieceli produced five striking graphics which provided a backdrop to a press conference when the University of Leicester announced its potentially momentous archaeological findings.
The university is currently leading the archaeological search for the burial place of the king, who was famously killed at the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485.
During the conference, Mrs Vieceli provided the university with a teaser image of her upcoming graphical novel about the life of the slain king.
post #73 of 182
That could be very interesting!
post #74 of 182
Thread Starter 
The articles keep pouring in, so more books can't be far behind:
Winter of discontent? UK lawmakers fight over Richard III's tomb
Quote:
No one is certain yet that remains dug up last month at a Leicester parking lot are those of the monarch immortalized by William Shakespeare for his willingness to trade his kingdom for a horse.
It may take months for DNA testing to determine if the body is the king's, but that hasn't stopped lawmakers in Parliament from sparring over the remains for their valuable tourism potential.

Picking over the bones of lost kings
Quote:
Another government shambles. There's a new one every day. This time they've lost Henry I. Sir Tony Baldry, the MP who represents the Church Commissioners, spoke to the Commons about the bones of Richard III. MPs have been fighting over who gets the mortal remains recently discovered under a car park in Leicester, if they prove to belong to the late king. (How do the scientists decide? I know the skeleton is hunchbacked, and there are axe wounds to the head, but have they found a crown with a few hairs stuck to it for the crucial DNA test?)

As various MPs suggested that Richard should be interred in their constitutency (if it is him, he is likely to wind up under Leicester Cathedral), Sir Tony said in a baffled sort of way that he had been worried about how many other kings have vanished, "but the only one who is still missing is Henry I, who seems to have got lost somewhere in Reading."
post #75 of 182
Thread Starter 
Hold your horses over King Richard III's remains, warns archeologist
Quote:
Archeologists are calling for an end to the debate on where the potential remains of King Richard III should be buried until tests on the bones have been completed.

Professor Lin Foxhall, head of archaeology and ancient history at the University of Leicester, said she wanted to reiterate that the bones discovered underneath a city centre car park in August were still subject to tests.

In a statement released by the university yesterday, she said people were "jumping the gun" by discussing where in the country the remains should be buried, as conclusive information about the bones was not expected until the middle of January.
post #76 of 182
It is worse than waiting for Secret Santa!
post #77 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyranson View Post

It is worse than waiting for Secret Santa!
laughing02.giflaughing02.giflaughing02.gif December sounded bad enough, but now mid-January?
post #78 of 182
post #79 of 182
Thread Starter 
It's good that's settled - Leicester did the recovery work, so it makes sense it gets to keep him.
post #80 of 182

Yeah but York really want him don't they I can see it getting a bit argumentitive still haha

post #81 of 182
Thread Starter 
It's understandable that everybody wants him - according to this BBC video, he's worth £ 3 - 4m annually in ticket sales alone:
Richard III dig: Is there millions in Shakespeare's villain?

There's a theory that the other bones found are those of the friary's founder:
Richard III dig: Bones found in Leicester car park may be friary founder
Quote:
The female remains have not been subjected to the same rigorous examination as those of the last Plantagenet king.

However, evidence suggests they may be the remains of Ellen Luenor who, along with husband Gilbert, is thought to have founded the 13th century friary now buried beneath the Greyfriars car park, in New Street.

Dig site manager Mathew Morris said: "The remains were found in the east end of the church and there's a possibility they belong to Ellen Luenor, who could be either a benefactor or the founder of the friary where Richard may be buried.
post #82 of 182
Thread Starter 
Apparently it hasn't been settled: Fresh confusion over burial site for King Richard III
Quote:
The announcement has been welcomed by campaigners in Leicester, but today the Ministry of Justice refused to confirm the position taken by Ms Grant and released a statement suggesting no decision had been taken.

A spokesman said:

"Archaeologists are currently carrying out tests to determine the identity of the remains, which could be those of Richard III. We will await the results before any burial arrangements are made."
post #83 of 182
Thread Starter 
This new article explains what scientific testing is being done: 'It's not like CSI': The science of the search for Richard III
Quote:
DNA testing, environmental sampling and radiocarbon dating are some of the tests being undertaken to determine whether the skeleton found in Leicester was once Richard III - and there are also plans to do a facial reconstruction.

A coin dating from the reign of Richard III has also been found:

Rare gold coin unearthed near Bosworth Battlefield expected to fetch a king's ransom
Quote:
A rare gold coin unearthed near Bosworth Battlefield is expected to sell for more than £12,000 at auction.

The pristine find dates from 1484 – a year before Richard III was defeated at Bosworth – and features a ship at sea on one side and St Michael spearing a dragon on the reverse.Importantly, the coin also bears the boar's head symbol of Richard III, exciting experts who suspect it was lost at the time of the battle, in August 1485.

The coin – known as an angel because of its depiction of St Michael – was found in August using a metal detector.
post #84 of 182
Thread Starter 
Unverified remains dig up the twisted legacy of England’s Richard III
Quote:
But if the discovery has touched off a feverish round of DNA tests against his closest living descendants, it has also lurched to the surface a series of burning questions in a country where even arcane points of history are disputed with the gusto of modern-day politics.
post #85 of 182
It is true that moswt of my British friends would definitely put themselves in one camp or the other re Richard III! It is one period of history that everyone has a view on.
post #86 of 182
Thread Starter 
Nothing really new, but it shows that the story is still very topical. This is from NPR:
Remains Thought To Be King Richard III
post #87 of 182
Thread Starter 
Leicester must be pretty confident that the DNA tests will confirm that those are Richard III's remains and they'll stay in Leicester:

Leicester City Council buys the site of its Richard III centre for £850,000
Leicester City Council buys building next to Richard III dig
post #88 of 182
Thread Starter 
post #89 of 182
Thread Starter 
The latest:
Carpark skeleton will be confirmed as Richard III
Quote:
Human remains found in the resting place of Richard III have already been identified as those of the king but information is being held back ahead of a major press conference next month, sources close to the project claim
A source with knowledge of the excavation told the Telegraph archaeologists will name the skeleton found beneath a Leicester car park in September as the Plantagenet king even if long-awaited DNA results on the bones prove inconclusive.

Richard III 'Grave' Under Leicester Car Park May Not Hold Remains Of Fifteenth Century Plantagenet King
Quote:
Remains found under a car park have not been confirmed as those of King Richard III but archaeologists are yet to find evidence to disprove it is the monarch's body, a university said.

The University of Leicester on Saturday denied reports that the remains found in Leicester earlier this year had been confirmed as those of the Plantagenet king and said it was still waiting for remaining test results.

It also denied claims it was holding back the information due to a documentary to be screened in the new year.

Richard Taylor, director of corporate affairs at the university, said there had always been strong circumstantial evidence that the remains were those of Richard III.

He admitted it was possible the university could name the skeleton as the monarch even if the DNA results prove inconclusive.

But he said the university did not want to make any academic decision until a number of tests, including DNA ones, had been concluded.

Human remains found in Leicester car park DO belong to Richard III... but scientists are holding back findings until Channel Four documentary is aired, claims insider | Mail Online : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248448/Human-remains-Leicester-car-park-DO-belong-Richard-III--scientists-holding-findings-Channel-Four-documentary-aired-claims-insider.html
post #90 of 182
Thread Starter 
Richard III dig: Conclusions to be revealed in weeks
Quote:
Conclusions of investigations into human remains thought to be those of Richard III are due to be revealed in the first week of February.

Experts at the University of Leicester have been analysing the bones since they were discovered beneath a car park in the city in September.

They are awaiting DNA test results before revealing their conclusions.

Major announcement in Richard III search to come in early February, says University of Leicester
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