Older female barely comes inside any more (to avoid kittens)

Hi all,

Newbie here. I'll explain my problem...

Java, my older cat is nearly 18 months now. She was the only cat in the household up until about 3 months ago, when I got two new kittens - a brother and sister.

Pascal and Lily-Lazarus are quite boisterous, naturally, so it was hard for Java to sleep without being disturbed as the little ones would always bother her. She started to go out a lot more (fine, it's summer after all) but then I made a big mistake - I put the new cat tree next to her bed and then one of the cats peed in her bed for some reason. She won't sleep in the bed any more and I expect she feels her territory has been invaded completely. It seems like she only ever comes in for food. I think she must be sleeping in another house because she is never in at night.

They get along reasonably well though - playfight sometimes, especially in the garden - no actual fights or anything.

I have even seen her grooming them on occasion.

What can I do to make her feel like the queen of the house again? She gets very edgy when she comes in and doesn't even like being touched any more (she makes weird noises), especially if the kittens are around (which they always are). She used to sleep on my bed every night but since my room was the kitten isolation room for the first week that obviously stopped.

This is making me really quite sad as I love her so much and she just isn't interested. She still has her collar on and is chipped so I'm sure whoever she is with knows she has an owner, but I want to reintegrate her into the household. She used to be so affectionate, albeit moody sometimes :-)

Any advice you can all give is so appreciated. I'm trying to play with her whenever she comes in, and even locking the kittens away while I do it. I think I need to re-establish a territory for her but it's hard as there aren't many places that the other cats won't have to go past to get to the front room, food etc.

Is it a bad idea to keep her in at night? I'm nervous about trying as she is quite stressed with it all.

Thanks,

Drew

Just thought I'd add that I have had some success with locking the cat flap and forcing Java to socialise with the other two.

Pascal is quite laid back and tends to just sit there most of the time. Lily-Lazarus just wants to follow her everywhere which seems to get on Java's nerves a bit.

Java is still very hissy and not relaxed around them, but I am giving treats to them all together as well as feeding together. Then I sent and sat on my bed, and to me surprise Java came and actually sat next to me for a while :-)

I'm thinking that I really need to give her more attention but being that she only wants to go straight out after eating it seems that keeping her in is the only way to do it.

I'm going to continue with the treats and supervised socialising. What do people think?

Drew

Hi.  I do think the treats and supervising them while socializing will help.  There is also a product called Feliway that my vet recommended before I brought my second baby (of the human kind) home.  It helps them calm and things. 

I would recommend cleaning the cat bed with something like Nature's Miralce; an enzyme cleaner.  They can smell things we cannot and the smell of the other cat's urine will deffinitely keep her away or feeling her space was invaded.

It could be a bit of Java's personality too.  One of my mother's cats prefers to keep her distance from the other 2 in the house; who are both younger and more active.  It may be that one of the kittens will be the alpha in the house.  My cats have always established that for themselves; I'm not sure you can help it too much. But I think what you are doing will help everyone learn to live together too.

Well, for one thing, Java needs her own "safe place" inside where she can get away from the kittens. It should be a place only she can get at. Right now, she's using the outdoors for that safety refuge.

I agree with the comments above. One other thing you might try is feeding her first and higher than the others. reinforcing her sense of being in charge. Give her the treats first. And yes, I would definitely keep her in at night - I have always done this anyway, for safety's sake as most accidents to cats happen at night.

Good advices above.

I too want to tip on Feliway. Feliway is not only calming, but mostly, giving a feeling of harmony, of safety, de-stressing.  There is adapter to have in the electric contact, and in spray.  I think you shall use the spray as your main weapon. Say to spray on yourself before you pet her, or before you take her to sleep with you in the bed. And in her new, special corner. So she feels it again nice and coozy to be be with you and in your home.   Feliway isnt cheap, but priceworthy. Cant hurt, but can help enormously in many cases.

Im not sure what Natures Miracle is, probably a modern, enzymatic cleaner.  Yes, they are better than the old time, house remedies to washing of cat pee.  Yet, afterwards you CAN wash off with some winegar acid spirit dissolved in water...

Good they ARE esseintially friendly with each other, so you dont need to overdo the reintroducing.

If you want to make sure to show off she is the alpha cat of the house, give her food first, give her pet firsts, carry her up above them,  do give her right in conflicts... Praise her more than them etc

Not so few alphas allow the others to eat first, esp it they are kittens.  but good they all knows the right and choice is hers.  You are NOT mean to the kittens by this. They know they are kittens, so they wont mind, not as long as you are nice and friendly with them too.

You can perhaps provoke them to play together?

Ah, trace down the other "co-owner".   Set in a message capsule in her, with your phone number, and ask the other to phone you.   Tell the situation, tell you are grateful them did helped a cat in need of a relief home, but now you are working on it, and it is essential she is wholeheartly with your place from now...

If they insist they want a cat too, tip them about some nice shelter around, where they can get their own cat and make a good deed at the same time. If it is a high kill shelter, their good deed will be even greater...

There is surely more, but let this be a beginning.  

Welcome to our Forums!

Good luck!

You really should post this on Pam's board. Pam Johnson-Bennett is a world famous cat behaviorist and she hosting an expert forum here on the site this week. Forum closes at the end of the weekend, so you should hurry up and post it here:

http://www.thecatsite.com/f/5803/cat-behavior-with-pam-johnson-bennett

It has been my personal experience that female cats are notoriously hard to introduce to one another, or have them get along, you always hear about how females AREN'T territorial O3O, but ya know how girls is xD I have 3 girls, 2 of which are about a year and a half old now and the other which is about 5 months, and it is hell in here most of the time with the hissing and the growling, and the fighting for no apparent reason u_u and it's been about 2 months since I brought Finn home, the males I' ve had before have gotten along in half that time and were usually laying around like old buddies by atleast 2 weeks into the introduction, I think it may have something to do with the fact that in the wild male cats will form coalitions (sp?) with one another and females are naturally solitary.

but anyway, that could be why the male kitten is so layed back and the female is all up in the older females business.

I wouldn't worry too much about things, the cats will figure them out in due time, it just may take a while, because remember it's not in a cats nature to be around other cats, if the older cat wants to stay outside and you know she is safe, then I say let her, cats are amazingly adaptable creatures, and so long as she has her claws, she can take care of herself (get a cat REALLY cheezed off and even something as large as a coyote will think twice about trying to take one). and over time she'll get over whatever little jealous funk she's in

Gibbly said:

, I think it may have something to do with the fact that in the wild male cats will form coalitions (sp?) with one another and females are naturally solitary.

I wouldn't worry too much about things, the cats will figure them out in due time, it just may take a while, because remember it's not in a cats nature to be around other cats,

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I believe that you are mistaken.  Male cats in the wild are more solitary and females form the the coalitions or prides or colonies. 

Cats are very social animals and prefer to have others around.    My 5 females as each was added to my family took about 3 days and then were cuddling, grooming and sleeping together.

Gibbly said:

 in the wild male cats will form coalitions (sp?) with one another and females are naturally solitary.

Click to expand...

It is rather the opposite I think*.

Neutered males makes an exception - they are accepted into the colonies of females.

While other females live solitary with perhaps some loose coalition of pals.

In home situations it may be true, girls, esp fertile, dont always get immediately friends. Bonding  neutered male< -> female, neutered or not, goes usually easier.

But with proper introduction and home routines, they will almost always get if not friends, so pals, or at least - tolerating and coexisting.

Easiest if all are neutered.

*you are perhaps thinking on the species where they live in clans, one dominant male and a number of his wifes and youngs. Where the young males get expelled as soon they begin to get mature, while the growing up girls are accepted as new wifes.

In these cases, it is common these expelled males forms groups of  unmarried males.

But it is not so with cats, not the ferale cats either.

Although it happens they do form small family groups, where the male stays together with his wife, and help to protect the kittens. In some cases even being the main caretaker for the kittens.

More than one forumite had witnessed this.

StefanZ said:

It is rather the opposite I think*.

Neutered males makes an exception - they are accepted into the colonies of females.

While other females live solitary with perhaps some loose coalition of pals.

In home situations it may be true, girls, esp fertile, dont always get immediately friends. Bonding  neutered male< -> female, neutered or not, goes usually easier.

But with proper introduction and home routines, they will almost always get if not friends, so pals, or at least - tolerating and coexisting.

Easiest if all are neutered.

*you are perhaps thinking on the species where they live in clans, one dominant male and a number of his wifes and youngs. Where the young males get expelled as soon they begin to get mature, while the growing up girls are accepted as new wifes.

In these cases, it is common these expelled males forms groups of  unmarried males.

But it is not so with cats, not the ferale cats either.

Although it happens they do form small family groups, where the male stays together with his wife, and help to protect the kittens. In some cases even being the main caretaker for the kittens.

More than one forumite had witnessed this.

Click to expand...

I have personally witness brothers and unrelated males roaming together and marking/patrolling territory together, where as every female cat I've had has chosen to live mostly solitary, perhaps my farm cats were the acception, not the rule, but I have seen brothers do this, they shared territory markings and came and went together during the late summer/fall/winter and during spring would seperate, even fight as if they were rivals (as they were) over queens, once breeding season ended, they would come together (meet in the exact same place) every year, rub and head bump, and groom like old pals, for days and days they would lay arounf re-affirming their bonds, before roaming off together again, these as I said were brothers, born to the same mother in the same litter (a litter of 5, all boys o3o) and when the "more dominant" of the 5 died (actually not exactly sure what happened to him, we believe he was shot, as he was a black cat and he disapeared around halloween), the 4 remaining brothers allowed a younger, unrelated (or perhaps a son) into their group.

I have always witness an un-altered tomcat basically steal, and take over the care of a younger sibling (younger sibling was a single kitten, older tom and younger tom were born to the same mother,a year apart) the older tom (who had recently lost his brother, whom he also was attached to the hip to) took over teaching the kitten how to hunt, and even slept and played with him while their mother looked on hopelessly, no matter what she did the young kitten stayed with the older brother and would not return to the mother or come to her calls (and she was an excellent mother too)

I have also heard of the breeds in which the toms actively help care for the kittens (siberians I believe are a breed that live in groups or pairs in the wild, are they not?)

Interesting to see there are more variations existing, then are described in the common handbooks!  

I have also heard of the breeds in which the toms actively help care for the kittens (siberians I believe are a breed that live in groups or pairs in the wild, are they not?)

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I dont know anything about free-living Siberians. Just the home-cats siberians.

I dont think this you described here is unique for siberians, it is rather common among breeders.

Many breeders  do have both females and males - studs and or neutered males, and who are friends with the queens, living together in the household as family pets.

Such breeders do often witness them studs are acting help mothers with newborns, or at least well wishing uncles somewhat later.  It is even more common with neutered males.

These studs are often not even the fathers, just happening to live in the same household.

But the key in these cases are they are friends with the moms.

Of course, otherwise the moms wouldnt want to have them near, nor the breeder would dare to allow a intact tom near.  

Tx for sharing of your experiences!

Hey everyone, and thanks so much for all the replies. 

Lots to take not of here, but also a little more progress in the meantime... So over the bank holiday weekend I carried on doing the same thing with Java - kept her in for an hour or so at a time, made her priority over the little ones. Had a bit of hissing at the kittens and I had to stop them from climbing on top of me, but after a while Java actually came and sat on my lap for a few minutes! She seemed much more at ease with being stroked and petted as well. Still want to see her sleeping happily inside instead of staying out all the time but I feel like I'm getting there... slowly does it.

So to your replies...

I have a Feliway plugin which kind of helped at the start, but I will get the spray as well as I have heard a few good things about it.

I will also get some "Urine Off", which I believe is a UK equivalent of what you are talking about (enzymatic cleaner - has very good reviews.)

Giving her some territory of her own is good advice, but can you suggest how to give her somewhere the kittens can not get to? They are quite big now so can jump up anywhere she can. I don't have many free spaces but could maybe make space in a cupboard or something for her??? She used to have her corner with her basket in the living room, and would sleep on my bed with me at night... would it be wise to lock the kittens out of my room and force Java to sleep in the room with me? I'm a bit unsure about how she'll react to not being allowed out at night because she has always had freedom to roam at all times.

I will feed her on a high place and make the kittens wait for their food from now on to show she is the alpha of the house.

ALSO I read somewhere that if you use perfume and rub it on your hands, then stroke all of the cats with it, they will all smell the same so will get on better. Anyone heard of this? Should I be doing this with the Feliway spray or some kind of pet perfume?

Thanks again,

Drew  

Would it be possible to put a cat flap in the door to one room that could be kept out of bounds to the kittens? There are programmable microchip cat flaps as well as ones with collar magnets. Java could come and go as she pleased and have a safe haven away from the kittens. It might work in a very large cupboard, but she would probably prefer even a small room to that.

I wouldn't use perfume - a tiny bit of vanilla extract under their chins is usually what's recommended.

I have thought about doing the cat flap thing, but I'm unsure about it. I already have a microchip cat flap on the main back door, and all 3 are programmed in, as before the kittens we had a little problem of invaders eating Java's food! It may have to be a last resort, though hopefully with time and care things should get better. I would prefer a house where they can all at least get along, without locked doors, but we shall see.

The vanilla extract trick sounds good. Who has tried this and did it work?

A lot of TCS members have used vanilla extract: Search Results for “vanilla extract”

UPDATE:

3 different beds are currently being "de-peed" using a proper enzymatic cleaner.

All 3 cats were kept inside last night. After a couple of hours of sulking by the back door, Java came in and slept by my feet 

A bit of growling at the other two as Pascal was sleeping near my bed on a pair of my shoes and Lily came into the room at some point but I'm glad that she's asserting her dominance. This is good, right? I had sprayed lots of Feliway about, and it seemed to help. I opened the cat flap at about 6am this morning.

I will try to get some vanilla extract and dab a little on them every day for a while and see if it makes any difference.

Drew

Excellent news!  *beaming*

Hey everyone! It's your resident British Crazy Cat Man here  

Thought I would post a little update. Things are moving along nicely... Java still not quite at ease, but is coming in of her own choice now. I have made her a little 'bedroom' in the bottom of a cupboard by the back door, and am feeding her there separately from the other two. It also has her bed in it which she uses sometimes. The smaller two are still curious and want to know what's going on but I'm just threatening them with the water spray if they go near her little room.

Java sleeps in there or by the catflap mainly, as she still doesn't like to come in and sit in the front room with the other two usually there... but sometimes if she is there or on her bed and I walk past she rolls over and shows me her belly for a rub, which I think is a really good sign, considering a few weeks back she would barely let me touch her without letting out a horrible growl.

So now I have her inside more, can anyone give me any advice on how to get her to slowly migrate up the hallway and chill out in the front room? Just to help her not be stressed with the others there? I sometimes get her in there by feeding treats - she comes running when she hears the treat box, but then once I stop giving them she just usually jsut leaves. Do I just persist with this and feed them all treats together?

Any advice you lovely people can give is greatly received.

Drew