struvite crystals ...... again :(

thehouseofgods

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I've had a cat with crystals a long time ago, and it did not end well. So immediately I recognized the symptoms. Even though we really couldn't spend the money we brought our baby boy Kitten (yes... That's his name ) to the vet the next morning. We caught it early, and he was giving fluid and an anti inflamitory and anti spasm (which the latter in my opinion did nothing)

This was our first visit for 230$...... This included the perception wet food we were sent home with. At first, he would eat a little bit, a 1/4 can or about that in one sitting, but wen he discovered he wasn't getting the crappy wet food everyone else was getting , he wasn't pleased. He isn't very interested in ANY of the three bladder health wet foods he's been given.

My second vet trip was out 45 mins to a very famous word of mouth vet who is no nonsense. Wouldn't suggest things I didn't need, and didn't scare me into thinking kitten had developed stones like my first vet. I also am able to ask questions without BS answers like "we can't suggest anything unless you come in".

Long story short, it's been over a week. We have good days and bad days, but he has pain medicine to help him relax his bladder if he is straining. He isn't blocked, but it's about an IV drip equivalent. Sounds bad, but after he got fluids the first day (last Thursday) he pee'd twice very good amounts, I would say almost full voids. Since then for five days after he was full, but dripping, but still chirping and talking and amazingly running around after the laser pointer. He had a day where he seemed a little off and lethargic and I was worried but brought him to the new vet the next morning.

I didn't even know that it was possible to express his bladder, so when the vet did it in front of me and pee went gushing everywhere.... I was so shocked!

My main problem is he is about as stubborn as a mule. He won't eat barely any of his wet food (I offer a 1/4 can at a time) and I know that the key to getting better is eating.

Does anyone have any experience with the dry food that is supposed to help dissolve bladder crystals. God knows they love their crunchies. I know that the dry food makes them drink more water, and there for it's harder on his kidneys...... But I'm at a loss of what to do.

Are there any commercial brand foods that anyone could recommend? I saw a list on the site of wet foods and their phosphorous content. I just don't know how much is to much... And of course I don't want to go to far in the other direction and give his oxidate crystals.

There are grand rumors on the Internet of cranberry extract helping to acidify the urine and helping dissolve the crystals. Any experience with this?

All I do is fuss over him, and I know he gets a little agitated especially when he isn't feeling all that well. Sometimes he wants his space and I have to learn to give jt to him. But today, he is defiantly in good spirits. We do something where I stick out my finger and he touches his nose to it and then rubs his chin or the top of his head against it. Everyone in the house has a different "nose" thing... It's my signal that they are feeling good :)

Any advice is good.... Let me know if I'm to long winded or I left anything out....

It goes without sayin I'm sure that kitten is my world. After loosing my beloved son (kitty- his father) Buddha, Kitten was the one I have this special bond with. Don't get me wrong, I love all four fur family members .... But there's something special about a cat named Kitten....
 
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momofmany

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I have a boy with chronic struvite crystals (Muddy) who was on the verge of blocking last week. For wet food, he LOVES the Purina UR, which he's been eating every day for breakfast for the last 4 years. He begs me for it every morning. For dry food, he had been on Science Diet C/D for maintenance purposes (the right levels of magnesium, etc) and did well on it. I switched the household to a grain free dry early this year and apparently it has done harm to Muddy. Entirely my bad.

The vet switched him over to Science Diet S/D to dissolve the crystals, and once those are gone, I'll be forced to switch him back to Science Diet C/D for preventative maintenance. I hate the carbs in this product but if it keeps him alive, then I'll do it. He's also on antibiotics (they found high white blood cell count in his urine), and I'm giving him a pain med and muscle relaxer to help him with the discomfort.

Every vet has their method of dealing with this issue and no vet will be entirely wrong because every cat is going to respond a little differently to the treatment. Some respond entirely through a change of diet. Some respond through diet and pain medications. Some respond thru sub-q fluids. Some respond to muscle relaxers (their bladder or urethea often goes into spasms from crystals). Some respond to steroids. Muddy has gone thru all of this.

You need to first focus on doing what you need to do to dissolve the crystals. If this is chronic, then you need to look for lifestyle changes - different foods, possible medications (Muddy is on steroids for the rest of his life), water fountains to encourage water intake, things to avoid having him stress (Muddy's illness is always triggered by stress). And remember there is no cookie cutter approach to this. You find the right combination to keep them healthy and that can be different for every cat with this problem.
 

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NO DRY FOOD. There are several choices of "prescription" diet wet foods. Purina and Royal Canin both have a wet line, if he won't eat the wet c/d.

Hills c/d kibble ruined my Mazy cat's digestion after eating it for 6 1/2 years. (she wouldn't eat the canned) It controlled the crystal formation, but when she got to the point where she was regurgitating every meal, I knew I had to stop the c/d kibble.

That c/d (and the other "prescription" dry foods too) is loaded with corn. So bad for cats.

She is currently on a commercial canned food By Nature Organics.

Urine acidifiers may be needed for your boy, but it will be important that you have frequent urinalysis, to be sure his urine doesn't become TOO acidic. You can learn how to catch the urine in a sterile container as he pees, that will save you from having to take him back and forth to the vet.

But give the other brands of "prescription" canned a try.
 

gloriajh

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aggree NO DRY !

I have two on prescription diet - only - Royal Canin Urinary SO - good for both kinds of crystals -- BUT, this must be the only food they have or else the chemistry of the special diet formula will not be successful.

I do give them treats of the RC Urinary SO dry as "cookies" - still safe, and they love them. I also ground up the "cookies" and use as a topper to the canned food, or a tad on the side of the canned food just to get them started eating the canned stuff.

A website about you might find helpful to encourage you to stay away from DRY food: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth
 

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NO DRY FOOD. There are several choices of "prescription" diet wet foods. Purina and Royal Canin both have a wet line, if he won't eat the wet c/d.
Hills c/d kibble ruined my Mazy cat's digestion after eating it for 6 1/2 years. (she wouldn't eat the canned) It controlled the crystal formation, but when she got to the point where she was regurgitating every meal, I knew I had to stop the c/d kibble.
That c/d (and the other "prescription" dry foods too) is loaded with corn. So bad for cats.
She is currently on a commercial canned food By Nature Organics.
Urine acidifiers may be needed for your boy, but it will be important that you have frequent urinalysis, to be sure his urine doesn't become TOO acidic. You can learn how to catch the urine in a sterile container as he pees, that will save you from having to take him back and forth to the vet.
But give the other brands of "prescription" canned a try.
Totally, absolutely agree! Well said. :D
 
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thehouseofgods

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thanks to everyone who responded. 

I do know all to well (i've learned my lesson for good!) that dry food is just ... garbage and should not even enter my mind let alone my household. But as far as the perscription stuff.... i was at my wits end. All i knew was that to get better he had to eat..... and FINALLY he found something he likes. So with 3/4 of my household being boys..... they are ALL on c/d WET. 

I see improvments every day, and i fear so badly now that i have found the path leading out of the woods (IE were not quite home yet) that things will backslide. I know as soon as their is a block it can be fatal fast.... 

i have been useing his pain meds a little more liberally than exactly perscriped... mainly because I can't STAND the idea of him being in pain, but .. he started to  finaly go to his box and get out a significant amount from his poor over stuffed bladder... 5 times in one day he went .... and then he would turn and lick himself and grumble. No mother wants to see their baby in paid. 

about 3 pm yesteday i gave him his meds, and i noticed what i could only describe a translucent scab on/over his entrance.... i was worried it would prevent his from pee'ing. What does he do? Well first he scared the bejesus out of me by falling into such a deep sleep ... i lifted his chin.. and when it flopped back down with no responce i was noticably panicked. I did it again "Kitten!!" i said and my husand came running over and actually picked him up out of his chair (one of those baby seats that vibrate :p) and all of a sudden he woke up and looked at him like "who's on fire?" i have never felt anything so scary in my life. Later on i discovered he ripped of the scab..... and i knew he would be more inflammed as a result. i fussed over him for an hour or so, and gave him an anti inflamitory that i hoped would help and went to bed. Woke up at 2 am for wahtever reason and wanted to check on him.... bladder still full. I wanted to see if anything would come out, and tried to help him void his bladder. He squirmed and i gave in pretty quickly. I don't remember what i went off to do (probably to pee due to bladder sympoth pains... or just plain ignoring my own needs due to empathy/anxiety) but all of sudden he was in his box. I stoped in my tracks and waited for him. Since its a multi cat household, i did the only thing i could think of to ensure myself he really did go, even though i heard it this time, and stuck my finger in the fresh pile of sawdust (We use equine bedding) and it was luke warm.
i felt like i could sleep soundly after that, and he was even back in after a few minutes.

Woke up about 6 hours later to find pee in various spots, and then the bathtub. It really scared me to see so much blood.... and my first reaction was panic. Sheer terror! my first thought was that it was WAY to much blood, almost entirely blood and no urine. i called my vet (assistant - VERY HELPFUL) and she assured me that as he reutnrs to normal that i would see blood. I still felt like it was to much.... but i have a way of letting my mind run away from me. I had to go off to a much needed job interview... it killed me to leave but my husband re-assured me that he would look in on him often.

came home, and of course looked in on him immedietly. He had eaten drank a good amound of water, and used his box at least twice since i had been gone. He used it again shortly after I got home and i saw more blood. I called the vet assistant again and she assured me if he is eating, drinking, not dehydrated, and not yowling in pain... he would be fine.

the more time i spend away from home not fussing on him, the more i can rationalize that if it were JUST blood and no urine that I was seeing, it would be a LOT darker and thicker.... i just feel like after what happened with his father, i could never forgive myself if i let something go.. and it turned out to be something i shouldn't have ignored.

I'm sorry this is long winded, but i need to get into detail... i'd really like to know if anyone has had any similar experiences with crystals. Kitten and the family (shiva - his mother, Loki - his brother, and Calcifer - the newbie/outsider) will be on this food for the rest of their life. When were out of a woods... i plan on working on weight loss. Any success stories? 

I'm just a  perinoid mother with a mind that wanders.... i'm also dealing with the fact that one of my oldest dearest friends commited suicide last november... and grief makes me a little nutty! 

Sometimes i look at kiten and in a happy voice i tell him "You make mommy crazy you know that?"

thank you for all of your support and your help! i think when i can afford it i'm going to by a small bad of the perscription dry food in place of treats. or is this overkill? i worry that because his treats are crunchies that i'm going to set him back if i give him to many but sometimes i have to test his alterness. when it comes to treats, you'd almost never know he was sick!
 

otto

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Is the pain medicine buprenex(buprenophine) I hope?

What kind of anti-inflammatory did you give him? This concerns me as there is no safe anti-inflammatory for cats except steroids. Did the vet prescribe prednisone?

It is scary when they go into such a deep sleep. Must have been from the pain meds.

Glad you've got them all on a canned diet!

Keep us posted.
 

otto

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thank you for all of your support and your help! i think when i can afford it i'm going to by a small bad of the perscription dry food in place of treats. or is this overkill? i worry that because his treats are crunchies that i'm going to set him back if i give him to many but sometimes i have to test his alterness. when it comes to treats, you'd almost never know he was sick!
Cats don't really need treats. The c/d canned comes in two varieties. That should be enough. :) That c/d dry is....well it's terrible. I just cannot recommend it, even as treats.

Oh wait..I did read a tip once, to put bits of the canned food on a cookie sheet and put it in the oven on a low setting to dry the bits out, then use that as treats.

Or...cook up some chicken, cut it into tiny pieces and freeze the pieces in a freezer bag. Take out a few pieces when you want to give treats.


I see improvments every day, and i fear so badly now that i have found the path leading out of the woods (IE were not quite home yet) that things will backslide.
I know how you feel. Once you've had a seriously sick cat, you never rest easy again. At least that's been my experience.
 
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thehouseofgods

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Otto, yes the vet perscribed him buprenorphine for his pain. I call it his loopy juice. A few days when i gave it to him he was more lovey dovey than i have ever seen him ( even when he was healthy) i was so relieved to see him act like his old self. headbuts, noses :p i love it when he uses his cheeky voice ( i must sound crazy to anyone without cats)

The anti inflammitory is not an RX.
 

otto

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Otto, yes the vet perscribed him buprenorphine for his pain. I call it his loopy juice. A few days when i gave it to him he was more lovey dovey than i have ever seen him ( even when he was healthy) i was so relieved to see him act like his old self. headbuts, noses :p i love it when he uses his cheeky voice ( i must sound crazy to anyone without cats)


The anti inflammitory is not an RX.
But there is no safe over the counter anti inflammatory for cats. Unless you are talking about a glucosamine product such as cosequin? (My struvite kitty takes cosequin)
 
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thehouseofgods

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yes, cosequin, we got it as glycoflex and i did a bit of snooping and found out it has other names ( i looked up cosquin). also small amounts of cranberry extract 100mg fruit extract powder. my first vet gave me meticam for anti inflamitory but it aparently has some pain management as well. Don't remember the name of anti spasm off hand (not at home). I belive the anti spasm i was supposed to give 3 times a day for 5 days, and the anti inflamitory once a day with food. Neither really seemed to be working.  I paid for 15 pills (anti spasm), and 5 syringes of metcam. What i got? 14 pills and 4 syringes. not very good for a first time client of theirs. of course i didnt even notice till i got home, was busy thanking the universe my cat was coming home, and wheeling him in a stripped down jogging stoller with a cage like contraption strapped to it. it was very chushy and secure of course. 

Also known as Meloxicam, these are the side effects of Metacam listed by wikipediea:

Adverse effects


Meloxicam use can result in gastrointestinal toxicity and bleeding, tinnitus, blinding headaches, rash, and very dark or black stool (a sign of intestinal bleeding).
 

whollycat

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I highly recommend you read the information on these two sites top to bottom and sideways
: Feline Urinary Tract Health (Dr. Lisa) and Feline Urinary Tract Disease (cat health book author Ms. Arora).

When my boy, Abby, developed IC/FLUTD years ago, these two sites were my saving grace. We had one flare up about a month after the first bout with IC/FLUTD, but I recognized what was going on and immediately started supplements that I learned about on the second website. We have had no recurrences of this painful disease with a diet tweak (I feed raw, so it was a matter of adding breast meat [higher in natural methionine] to our home-prepared balanced raw diet) and stress management. I did not use veterinary diets as I felt that my Abby's IC/FLUTD could turn the other direction and he would end up with calcium oxalate stones, and would be just a vicious cycle. Read the above sites, please--Dr. Lisa's is especially helpful. Ms. Arora's site offers natural treatment options, which I put to use for my Abby.

I would not over-do the pain med because that's not good. Just use enough to control his pain.

My take-away's from the above sites:

Do not feed kibble (dry) food. Ever. Not even snacks.

Pain management in the acute phase.

Water, water, water! Add extra water to canned food, as much as you can get away with without turning your boy off to the food. Feed only grain-free, minimal to no fruits/veggies canned or a balanced raw diet. In the acute phase syringe water by mouth or administer sub-Q fluids. Approx 5-10mL per pound of body weight extra per day in food, by mouth, and/or sub-Q combined total. Water is vital for flushing crystals and sediment out. But do not stop giving extra water in his food when he is better--make it a life-long thing.

Control any stress in kitty's life. Stress can be a biggie when it comes to recurrences.
 
 
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thehouseofgods

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thanks wholly <3 i will read the sites, but probably not tonight as i have to work early tomorrow. i have been doing a lot of reading on the crystals themself.... i would LOVE to get my family on a raw diet.... but i've been down that road before.... and it didn't go well. Any tips for transition? for now i know the medical food does have some grain in it, but i am scared  to change anything. as far as adding water... i know i should but i don't want him to get turned off his food now that we are so close to being out of danger.

thanks!
 
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whollycat

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thanks wholly <3 i will read the sites, but probably not tonight as i have to work early tomorrow. i have been doing a lot of reading on the crystals themself.... i would LOVE to get my family on a raw diet.... but i've been down that road before.... and it didn't go well. Any tips for transition? for now i know the medical food does have some grain in it, but i am scared  to change anything. as far as adding water... i know i should but i don't want him to get turned off his food now that we are so close to being out of danger.

thanks!
Aw, you're welcome.


For transitioning, there are topics here at TCS and also the two sites I provided. If you have trouble finding the information, just let us know. (I'm a bit short on time right now.)

Oy. The grain in the food is not good. Grains, fruits, veggies alkalize urine--exactly what you do NOT want. If you want to try raw again, just tell us the problems you had before and we can help. Raw was the best thing I ever did for my kitties. I've been feeding raw for around 7-8 years now, and haven't looked back.


As far as adding water to his food, just start with a small amount, say a half to one teaspoon, then build up from there. Just take it slow and hopefully he'll accept it--you don't want it thin, like broth, just more of a pudding-like consistency in the end; or if it is already pudding-like, then still add extra water...in slow increments. Someone else here on TCS suggested watered down meat baby food (chicken or turkey) to get additional water into kitties. That can work in the short term (it's not balanced for kitties)--just make sure the meat baby food has no onions or garlic in any form in it--those aren't good for kitties; you'll have to read the label carefully. My kids will eat their raw pretty soupy
, but I try to aim for a tablespoon or more added to their meals. There is approximately 5mL in a teaspoon to give you a little reference (3 teaspoons in a tablespoon, so 15mL).

Please do post back with any questions and how your little fella is doing.
 
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momofmany

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I want to comment on using cosequin as an anti-inflamatory for urinary tract disease.

The original laboratory test for the use of cosequin in cats for UTD's was not a controlled test. Cats that were given cosequin also had a change in diet, therefore the tests should have been inconclusive on what helped the cats control the disease. Cosequin was highly touted as an aid for UTD's and many vets today will suggest it as an anti-inflamatory.

However, a lesser known control test was run since that time where cats were given cosequin alone and other cats had their diets change. The cats taking cosequin alone showed NO improvement. Cats with a diet change showed improvement.

So please don't think that cosequin is helping the condition. It may have other effects that make them feel better but don't rely on this drug to do what you think its doing. Very few vets are aware of the subsequent study.
 
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otto

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I believe in cosequin as an aid to bladder health for cats with urinary tract problems.

I would throw the metacam away, if you haven't yet. Metacam is notorious for causing acute kidney failure in cats. don't use it.
 

blueyedgirl5946

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I have a boy with chronic struvite crystals (Muddy) who was on the verge of blocking last week. For wet food, he LOVES the Purina UR, which he's been eating every day for breakfast for the last 4 years. He begs me for it every morning. For dry food, he had been on Science Diet C/D for maintenance purposes (the right levels of magnesium, etc) and did well on it. I switched the household to a grain free dry early this year and apparently it has done harm to Muddy. Entirely my bad.
The vet switched him over to Science Diet S/D to dissolve the crystals, and once those are gone, I'll be forced to switch him back to Science Diet C/D for preventative maintenance. I hate the carbs in this product but if it keeps him alive, then I'll do it. He's also on antibiotics (they found high white blood cell count in his urine), and I'm giving him a pain med and muscle relaxer to help him with the discomfort.
Every vet has their method of dealing with this issue and no vet will be entirely wrong because every cat is going to respond a little differently to the treatment. Some respond entirely through a change of diet. Some respond through diet and pain medications. Some respond thru sub-q fluids. Some respond to muscle relaxers (their bladder or urethea often goes into spasms from crystals). Some respond to steroids. Muddy has gone thru all of this.
You need to first focus on doing what you need to do to dissolve the crystals. If this is chronic, then you need to look for lifestyle changes - different foods, possible medications (Muddy is on steroids for the rest of his life), water fountains to encourage water intake, things to avoid having him stress (Muddy's illness is always triggered by stress). And remember there is no cookie cutter approach to this. You find the right combination to keep them healthy and that can be different for every cat with this problem.
 This is exactly how my boy Muffin has been treated for most of his life.  He is now 12, but has a long history of struvite crystals.  At first he was given S/D and then put on maintenance of C/D and has done well for nine years or more.  I just put water in the bowl with the C/D to make sure he was getting liquid.  Since having surgery for liver cancer and appetite issues, he now also eats the Purina UR.  The only other thing I did different for him and Speedboat was to install a filter on my kitchen faucet. They always get filtered water to drink.
 
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thehouseofgods

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Thanks everyone.

Right now I'm away from home again... It's hard for me because I want to be there if anything goes wrong, but I've left my husband with the only phone we have.

I am still seeing blood, and for some reason my husband let Kitten in last night as closed the door. So I woke up at a certain point as realized there was pee at the head of the bed. I was awake for a short time and kitten was asking (very vocal) for attention. I should have let him out, but I was happy he wanted to talk to me. Let's me know he's still him... I feel so good when he talks to me. lol and then he pee'd on the be again. I looked at him, and he looked at me. So I grabbed a towel near by and tried to stick it under him "just get it over with" I told him half delirious with sleep.

I'm looking at the positive, his bladder hasn't been full and hard in almost two days now... And I think being full with a leak for a few days left him a little unsure of exactly when he has to go. More or less, when he has to go, there's no waiting... But aside from this, he has been making the trip to the litter box which does require a little hop up. Good signs right? Our box for the four of them is a bright orange storage toat (one of my favorite colors) that has been 'blinded' out with hello kitty Christmas stickers.

The only concern I have is how he is walking. It has improved a little bit from yesterday but he isn't really walking that fast. I get the feeling that his back end is bothering him, and I know he is still having spasms, so when he pee's sometimes (not sure if all) it's a stop and go. But when it goes I can hear it. I guess his bladder is probably sore? Should I seek out more pain meds from my vet? money is tight and my hubby and I were discussing an exam last night... But we're also about to buy more food, a 45$ case of 24. He had little clumpy pieces of blood... The only way I can describe it would be like a period, but only like the odd little piece, nothing significant, just a similar texture... I read somewhere that something is happening to the lining of his bladder?
 
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thehouseofgods

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What I meant by let him in, into the bedroom when I was sleeping. My Husband often comes to bed late (or zonks on the couch) but he stayed up all night last night. We check to make sure he is wide eyed and alert as the vet assistant told us, and that he is eating and drinking.

Oh and as far as his back end it was mainly that when I pet him he wasn't lifting his tail, but has improved since yesterday.
 
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thehouseofgods

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Cats don't really need treats. The c/d canned comes in two varieties. That should be enough. :) That c/d dry is....well it's terrible. I just cannot recommend it, even as treats.
Oh wait..I did read a tip once, to put bits of the canned food on a cookie sheet and put it in the oven on a low setting to dry the bits out, then use that as treats.
Or...cook up some chicken, cut it into tiny pieces and freeze the pieces in a freezer bag. Take out a few pieces when you want to give treats.
I know how you feel. Once you've had a seriously sick cat, you never rest easy again. At least that's been my experience.
That's it in a nutshell.... I haven't slept properly for almost 2 weeks. My poor hubby ... I keep feeling like the sky is falling with kitten when he used to do so much as meow at me funny. I was ready to take him to emergency one night because he meows at me a little worried, but what did I expect? I was so upset he was sick and he was very clearly feeding on my panic. That was the night before we took him to the new vet. The second time when I brought him to the good vet, he assured me he wan dehydrated and didn't charge me for the exam, he made sure his bladder wasn't blocked. I told him I was just a perinoid mother, and he told me that he does react to my mood. He told me "keep up the good work" it made me feel so at ease!

The chicken is a REALLY good idea Ty ! I will keep that in mind and make that a priority. My hubby has started giving him about 1/5th of a whiskas temptation treat at a time instead of a whole one.

Going to check out the links now that I have some time, and will start adding some water to his food slowly. And yes I know that garlic and onion are very bad. :)

Turns out the first link I've already read same with my hubby. Through everything I've even lucky to have his support.... I've felt very close to suicide at some points. Loosing kitten would absolutely break me.. I'm still dealing with a suicide from november of a very dear friend, and with money problems... It sometimes feels like the world is collapsing around me. My hubby has been my rock to cling to.
 
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