Help -- we can't keep him if he keeps attacking

My husband and I have two cats -- both rescues. One, Zoey, is F DSH about 7 years old with IBS, making her skittish and shy. The other, Monte, is M DSH, about 3 years old, and twice the size of Zoey. We've had the female for about 1 year, the male for about 6 months. Both are altered, both are entirely indoor, and both have their claws.

Relations have been a bit strained between the cats from the beginning, but it wasn't until after we moved about 6 weeks ago that things got really bad.

Monte was previously feral, lived in a schoolyard, and was not able to stay in his last adoptive home because he made another male cat spray. We went through a phase shortly after we brought him home where Monte, (probably neutered only shortly before we got him), would try to mate with our female (much to her dismay), and would hump anything else he could find that was more willing several times per day. When he "attacked" Zoey, it seemed to quite clearly be a sexual move. Attacks were occurring maybe twice or three times per week at most. We took him to the vet, did a brief course of hormone therapy, and waited it out until he calmed down. We haven't seen him try to hump anything in months.

We moved to a larger place about 6 weeks ago. It seems that Zoey was timid about her changing environment and stayed hidden at first, but Monte just canvased and claimed the place as his. He has since attacked her, in a way that seems very unprovoked, as many as three to five times per day. He hasn't drawn blood, but he's extracted some of Zoey's fur and has made her pant with fright. When he's not attacking he seems to be stalking her -- he'll follow her around, pounce on her, and try to scare her away from us when she dares try to spend any time with the humans. We aren't sure if his behavior is territoriality, jealousy, animosity directed at Zoey, or nerves about changing locations yet again.

For the record...we also went on a one week trip about 5 days after our move. (We're sorry, it was unavoidable). We hired a live-in cat sitter who said that while we were gone the cats got along fine.

We keep them separated while we are gone, and often at night. Someone is almost always home since my husband works from home. Neither cat is allowed in our bedroom at night. We have separate litter boxes, we've had to feed them in separate rooms to get Zoey to eat at all, and we try to shower both of them with attention. Zoey has crawled into her shell, so to speak, and pretty much hides in the back bathroom all day -- she was always shy, but used to be more social.

Monte is also a love/overstimulated biter. Between the biting of the humans and the attacks on our other kitty, we are about at wits end. We'd appreciate any suggestions.

Wow that's a lot of changes for a cat to handle. That is why the acting out is occurring on such a large scale. Monte is more than likely waiting for more upheavel to take place.

You can do several things, if you are sure that all cats are healthy? Sometimes the cat getting attacked, is being attacked because she is ill and smells "funny." The cats pick the smell up quickly and respond to it with high stress aggression. If you are sure all the cats are healthy, eating, drinking, peeing, pooping normally, here are some tips to stop the aggression.

Install a Comfort Zone room mister in the room where the cats hang out the most. Made by Farnum Pet, this sprays a continuous stream of pheremones into the air, and calms cats down.

Using vanilla extract, put a small dab on each cat, under their chins, between their shoulders and at the base of their tail. This makes them all smell the same, and lessens the threat.

Establish a routine, feed the same time, in the same place with the same bowl. Play with each cat individually however they like to play at the same time and in the same place.

Go to www.meowhoo.com look in our Behavior section then at Training aids. The listing is Cat Faeries- order the Bach Flower Remedy *Holly* when you mix it up, use spring water only and give Monte three drops on his tongue daily.

Also buy a black light flashlight (through Petsmart) wait until around midnight, douse all your lights and turn on the blacklight. See any glowing spots? Leftover pet stains from a previous tenant can put even the best behaved cats in a snit!

Good luck!

Thanks so much for the advice, Hissy.

I just ordered the Feliway plug-in. We'll try the Vanilla for now -- it should be easy enough since we have a huge bottle of that on hand. We'll look into the bach flower "holly" remedy when we take Monte to see our holistic vet this week.

We are not sure that Zoey is not ill -- in fact, she has always been sickly because of her IBS. We have gotten her flatulence, loose bowel movements and vomiting under control by upgrading to a very high quality diet (as suggested in Anitra Fraser's "New Natural Cat"), but she has had irregular blood levels and we know she is not entirely "cured" by the diet. Zoey drinks more than normal, and is more nervous (with or without Monte) than is normal. Her condition is hugely improved from when we first got her, but perhaps we need to find out from our vet if there is something more we can try to get her even healthier.

If he is attacking her because she's ill, and we can't get her "well" with our vet's help, I wonder if there is anything beyond your suggestions we can try to keep him from making her illness worse with stress.

We adore both cats and really want to keep them both. We are thrilled to find out that there are things we haven't tried yet!

I wonder have you introduced her to canned pumpkin yet? I give this to all the cats I get here (I do private rescue of ferals) and some of them are pretty beat up when they come here. If you can, try her with about a teaspoon of canned pumpkin mixed with her canned food 3 times a day and see if perhaps that might bring her relief. I suffer from IBS myself, but thankfully none of my cats do. But I would try that and see if that eases things for her.

Good luck!

We feed both cats a special raw-meat based diet made by hand to exacting specifications to make sure it is nutritionally complete. It would be very easy for us to add canned pumpkin when we make up each batch, and we're already feeding her three times per day. I've never heard that canned pumpkin might make a good remedy before. Do you happen to know why or how it works?

It just adds fiber and helps ease constipation and digestive upset.

Originally posted by 1kitty2kitty
Zoey drinks more than normal, and is more nervous (with or without Monte) than is normal. Her condition is hugely improved from when we first got her, but perhaps we need to find out from our vet if there is something more we can try to get her even healthier.

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When did Zoey last have a complete blood panel drawn and read? If it hasn't been within the past year, then perhaps a visit to your (non-holistic) vet is in order for a complete exam including lab work. Drinking more than normal is a symptom of a lot of things, including kidney disease and diabetes. Zoey's response to the stress of her current environment may be adding to the problems with her health.

Best of luck and please keep us updated.

~gf~

We got Zoey some pumpkin to have with dinner. She liked it and has not thrown it up, yet! We'll see what happens over the next few days.

We've had Zoey for less than a year and we've had a blood panel done on her twice in the last year. The first time it was done was when we were trying to figure out why she had constant diarrhea and frequent vomiting. The second time we had it done before a teeth cleaning that she didn't end up having because of the blood test results. She has unhealthy blood levels indicating some sort of liver problem. That much we know. We've stopped short of having some of the invasive IBD/IBS diagnostics done mostly because the costs of those procedures are incredibly prohibitive for a young married couple! (Not to mention invasive to Zoey).

We tried expensive prescription foods, diets designed to rule out food allergies, etc. She wouldn't eat enough of the prescription stuff to bring her low body weight up at all (we didn't blame her -- it was repulsive), and she'd throw up the rest. I suppose I should mention that she was the first cat either my husband or I had ever owned...the first few months were a very trying time for us.

We have noticed that the raw diet (based on beef and ostrich, since we're not sure if she can tolerate chicken or Turkey, which also contains vitmin and mineral supplements, vegetable and grain) has increased her energy level, general appearance, and appetite. We're not sure if she'll ever weigh more than 6.5-7 pounds, though. We do know that she cannot eat fish. She vomits it up immmediately. That rules out any commercial food with fish in it as an option. Her diet is extremely restricted, so aside from the changes that her raw diet has made, we've not noticed how anything influenced her bowel patterns.

We're talking about pursuing some of her diagnostics again with renewed vigor as a result of some of the posts in this thread. Monte will go to the vet on Wednesday, and we'll make an appointment for Zoey in the near future as well.

I tell you what, if it turns out that Monte has been attacking Zoey because she is sickly, we probably ought to be thanking him for helping us to recognize a problem that would have gone unnoticed were it not for his strange and disruptive behavior.

P.S. I'd love to have a link to the Yahoo group if anyone knows it.

Originally posted by 1kitty2kitty


We've had Zoey for less than a year and we've had a blood panel done on her twice in the last year. The first time it was done was when we were trying to figure out why she had constant diarrhea and frequent vomiting. The second time we had it done before a teeth cleaning that she didn't end up having because of the blood test results. She has unhealthy blood levels indicating some sort of liver problem. That much we know.

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It may be a good idea to specifically suggest that those teeth and gums be looked at again. If the bloodwork indicates it, a good cleaning along with any necessary extractions might help her a great deal. While I have no way of being absolutely certain about this in your cat, teeth and gum problems can and oftentimes DO cause many of the symptoms you have described in your cat, including the digestive ones. There is also a link from teeth/gum issues to early chronic kidney failure.

Get the bloodwork done and talk candidly with your vet about it. If you don't understand something - ASK questions, in fact ask a LOT of questions.

If you decide to go through with the dental procedure, in the way of safety - Request a course of pre-surgical Antirobe (or other antibiotic specifically designed to treat deep tissue infections) to help clean up any underlying infections that might be lurking. You should tell your vet to perform the dental procedure only under ISOFLURANE GAS, not KETAMINE. The gas metabolizes in the lungs as opposed to the ketamine, which metabolizes in the kidneys/liver. As an added benefit, you get to take kitty home the same day whereas with ketamine, they normally require an overnight stay.

Please understand that I am not suggesting you go through with the dental if the bloodwork doesn't make you or your vet comfortable. However, some cats (I had one - we had to perform a full-mouth extraction in order to save her life) are prone to gingivitis. And sometimes, it is necessary to weigh the risk against the outcome.


Best of luck,

~gf~

Thanks for more wonderful suggestions Gayef and Noah's Mommy.

I'm thrilled to report no attacks yesterday, and so far, none today! The kitties smell like ice-cream now that they are wearing their vanilla extract. My husband says smelling the cats is making him crave banana cream pie! :icecream: :icecream:

Does Zoey have inflammed gums and/or bad breath? Two of the vets told me those are other indications of IBD.

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You should tell your vet to perform the dental procedure only under ISOFLURANE GAS, not KETAMINE.

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She does has somewhat foul breath. We'll check with our other vet to see if he thinks a cleaning is advisable given the risks. I know teeth problems can lead to serious health complications, but did not know about the specific link to IBD. I also would never have known to request a particular anesthetic! Thanks.

I think the idea of a cat taking down a cow is funny.

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LOL! I've gotten that mental image a time or two myself.

My husband and I looked into buying the "Instincts" powder food for our cats last night -- we'll probably do it since it really operates on the same principle as the diet we've been making by hand from a recipe. It has nearly identical ingredients for the most part, but would take a lot of the work out of making it. FYI - the little bit of grain we have used is only soaked oat bran -- something like what might be in the tummy of a kitty's natural prey when it is caught.

We'll ask the vet about trying Zoey out with some chicken or turkey, but we've been told not to do it willy-nilly. She may have an allergy or intolerance if some early indications were correct. In the short-term, I was somewhat relieved to read on their website that "Instincts" does list beef, and even ostrich, as acceptable meat to use. At any rate, we always buy the higest quality, most natural meat we can find.

Our choice to feed her raw was very similar to yours. We didn't want her on steroids, we didn't want to have to take her in for surgery, and we wanted her to stop crying in the litterbox. We also used to see a lot more of the kitty loaf position. Poor babies! I'm glad Micah is better -- it IS heartbreaking to watch them suffer! Zoey's obvious symptoms are gone now, too.

Is Zoey a small kitty?

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Zoey is pretty small. She weighs 7 pounds when she is doing well. She quit losing weight on the raw diet, but she has never really gained more than 1/2 a pound. Maybe modifying her diet a bit would help. Monte, who is a bigger cat anyway, has gained about 3 pounds since we put him on raw, but the biggest change in him was his fur -- it has gone from dull and full of dandruff to shiny and glossy. (And he was eating VERY high quality dry food!)

Thanks for the links, Noah's Mommy, and best of luck in your studies. I'm also a student 1/2 time...trying to fend off my student loans.

Thank you to all of you who suggested solutions to our feline agression problems. It turns out that some of the advice we have received might have prolonged our Zoey's life!

We took both cats to the vet and discovered two important things:
1. Monte is extrememly healthy, except that he has somewhat high cholesterol, triglycerides and magnesium. The intersting part about this is that high levels in these areas have been linked to aggression in come cases. With the vet's help, we've tweaked his raw diet to lower the fat and he seems to be doing great.
2. Miraculously, Zoey has put on some weight. Even the vet was shocked, because it turns out she has apathetic feline hyperthyroidism. Blood tests have confirmed that she is in need of treatment fairly urgently. Since she has not had obvious symptoms of disease, (besides what we assumed to just be her nervous and lethargic personality), who knows how long it might have taken for us to find out how badly she needed help had Monte not given her such grief! On our vet's recommendation, we're probably going to treat her by means of Radioactive Iodine Therapy, which is fortunate since one of the pioneering vets of the treatment works within 30 minutes of us. It means she'll have to be hospitalized for 3-6 days, but the procedure has very little risk and has a 95% success rate. It's going to cost us hundreds of dollars, but we'll manage it somehow.

In the meantime, we've put the Feli-way plug-in in our livingroom, and think that it, too, is helping somewhat. Monte has not seriously attacked Zoey in the last week...so things are looking up.

Thanks again!

And that's why I love this community so much! I am glad you got help and guidance here that led to this discovery. Here's hoping that the rest of the journey won't be so difficult for all involved. Good luck!

I'm so glad that the aggression issue was identified and Zoey is putting on more weight! Good luck with the Radioactive Iodine Therapy.

If you can, please keep us updated on her progress.

That is one reason, I like it here. You ask, and receive help.
I am very happy for you, and your Kitty's.

Here's a mini-update:

There is one part of Zoey's treatment that we found out is risky and has me worried -- we have to do an thyroid drug trial before the Radioactive Iodine procedure can done. The drug trial will let us know if her kidneys are likely to function normally after thyroid hormone levels are decreased. The vet explained that she could have kidney failure once the thyroid hormones are decreased to healthy levels. If the kidneys fail, then they cannot use the Radioactive Iodine, and we are left with very few treatment options for the two rather symbiotic problems...(fix the one, screw up the other). Of course, this is only the worst case scenario...most of the time the kidneys are fine.

I would love to have the prayers of any of you who are praying types, since we would hate for our sickly little cat (who has already been through an awful lot in her 6 years) to have more suffering in store. We are really hoping and praying that her little organs can cope with the changes they are about to undergo. The med trials start today.

Thanks Again to all of you!

I have no health advise to add, just a compliment to you 1kitty2kitty. Thank you for doing so much for you kitties! As a first time cat owner, you obviously have spent a lot of time researching how you can help you babies and trying to work thru their issues rather than just giving up on them. Your efforts to self-educate are commendable!!

I will be praying for your cat

Zoey has been on her meds consistently now for several days and seems to be showing some improvements in health and behavior. There are a few encouraging things, like the fact that she seems to be a bit more willing to cuddle with us at night while we sleep -- I found her resting her head in the crook of my arm while digging her front paws into my side last night for the first time. She has also been exploring new hiding places in addition to her usual spots, which we don't know how to view (positive or negative?).

However, we have some rather obviously disturbing things going on, which may or may not have to do with her meds (methamazole) or with Monte. Before I go on, you should all know that we've made an appointment to take her back to the vet at 3 this afternoon! for the last three nights, Zoey has stated out in the litterbox, scratching around etc., and at some point has darted out of the box and had a bowel movement on the carpeted floor. We are pretty certain that Monte actualy stalked and chased her out of the box the first night, but he was locked out of the room on the two subsequent occassions when she had her accidents. The first two times the stool was not firm, made at least two-three spots, was light in color (a rusty color, almost), and smelled unusually strongly. The one she left last night, by contrast, was fairly normal looking and smelling. Every night it has happened at the same time (approximately), and she has had no daytime litterbox issues. The first occassion must have been terribly traumatic for her -- she soiled the carpet in two rooms, got her feces on the wall by the doorway and on her own little back -- about two inches above her tail. We heard the chase (didn't see it) and have no idea how she managed to make such a mess. We even had to help her to clean herself up by gently wiping the little bit of stool out of her fur, because she seemed to be too shaken to even groom herself properly and thoroughly, at least initially. We've given her lots of space and time away from Monte since then -- since the last thing she needs is more stress right now.

The other event that may be figuring in is that she had an accident about a month an a half ago that was our fault, and made us feel terrible about the indignity she suffered. She managed to get stuck overnight in the livingroom without a litter box (we did not realize that she was without access to both of the litterboxes at either end of our apartment), and she had to relieve herself. She picked a spot by the front door, after making several pitiful little cries which we didn't investigate until it was too late, she did her buisness there on the carpet. We felt awful when we realized what had happened. The next few nights my husband or I would hear her crying the same way and would have to get up and show her the litterbox now permanent livingroom box, and she would use it without accident. She has since stopped crying before she does her buisness.

The litterbox in our bedroom (which was the one she started out in on all three nights) is under a TV tray which is covered by a very lightweight tablecloth. I'm wondering if the fact that it is covered makes her afraid that Monte is stalking her, and if, as a result, we should make sure that she can see that he is not there by removing at least part of the cover for her. We have been careful not to scold her about any of what has happened, since we don't know if the cause is medical, and we really don't want to add to the stress of whatever is happening with her.

As I've said, we're going to the vet to rule out dietary/med problems, but could use some other perspectives about the behavioral issues that may be involved. Thanks again to all of you who take the time to read and comment!