Billy's weight loss journey (well, maybe)

LDG said:

...

FYI, I don't give the cats treats (FD or otherwise). Lazlo gets FD chicken whenever he asks for it, but he's different.

At this stage in life, he just gets spoiled.

Tuxie gets some sometimes - but otherwise, they don't eat between meals. Mean mommy!

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As to Billy... I decided not to just alternate amounts of food every-other-day. I don't want it to be a routine his body comes to expect. I've decided to just randomly feed him either .75 or 1.5 ounces of food at any given meal. I'm keeping a spreadsheet to keep track of the average daily amount of food (I'll probably keep a week's running average), so that I don't accidentally cut his calories too much. On the every-other-day thing, he would have been due for a .75 ounce day. But I gave him 1.5 ounces for breakfast. I'll probably give him 0.75 ounces at the next meal. Sneaky mommy!

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Sweet, SPOILED Lazlo! (He deserves every bit of it!)

If you alternate how much you feed between meals, instead of between days, the total caloric intake per day might not change, which would defeat the purpose of this exercise, yes?

AC

Well, I'm not sure I understand the question. I can't lower his total average intake - at least not below 3 ounces (though I'm targeting between 3.2 - 3.5. He's been eating 3.6), and really, he should be eating much more than that, even if he were a 12 pound cat. The vet didn't want me to reduce his food/calories at all, since he's already eating at such a reduced rate.

So if you're asking if the goal is to reduce his average daily caloric intake, the answer is no. The goal is to find a way to "kick start" his body and get it out of this "starvation mode" (low metabolism). The idea, with this method, is to see if "confusing" his body as re: amount of food will get his metabolism going, rather than trying to reduce his calories.

And I don't plan to alternate each meal. I plan to switch up between small meals and large meals with no pattern at all.

Ultimately, I probably will be cutting his calories a bit, but only because when I feed the split meals (lamb/turkey breast and venison/pork), rather than feed him 50/50, I'll feed him more of the meat that's lower calorie (turkey breast and venison). But given the small portions and small differences in calories, that would take some time to manifest as a lower calorie intake.

Could be I'm the one misunderstanding. I thought you were going to increase the overall daily/weekly food intake, but do it while feeding a lot one day and not so much the next... all in the effort to kick-start his metabolism.

I'm thinking the only way to kick that metabolism up to the next level is to feed more (just temporarily, of course), not just per meal, but per day... even if it's just every other or every third day. If you just swap it randomly per meal, the total daily intake might not change, so then Billy's metabolism might not change.

But I may be understanding the theory incorrectly.... If you're thinking that single large meals, and then single small meals (randomly), with no change in the daily intake, would affect the metabolism, then just ignore everything I've written.

AC

:lol3:

This was how it started:

Willowy said:

One diet tip I heard for humans was to eat a "normal" amount of calories on one day, then very little the next day. Apparently this keeps your metabolism revved up but also decreases your total caloric intake...

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mschauer said:

Huh. So the idea is that if normally feeding 145 calories a day if I alternated feeding him 145 calories and, say, 120 calories a day that he would lose more weight than if I fed him 133 (the average of 145 and 120) calories a day?

Or is the idea that I would alternate between 145 and a lot less, like 80, for a quite low net calorie intake but that he wouldn't feel deprived because the very low calorie day is followed by a relatively high calorie day? I wouldn't want him feeling very hungry every other day.

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Willowy said:

I think the second option. I believe the idea is to reduce total caloric intake without feeling deprived every day. Of course, there are a bazillion different wacky diet ideas out there, but that's one I thought made a little bit of sense, at least .

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I don't know that increasing his calories would kick-start his metabolism. :dk: The vet didn't seem to think so. Is there a reason I should think it would? :dk:

I was thinking that his body having to deal with differing amounts of food - some large meals, some small meals - might do it. But I didn't want to risk increasing or decreasing his calories.

:dk:


...and on that note, I have to go feed them dinner. He got 0.75 ounces of chicken for dinner, and he'll get 1.5 ounces of chicken gizzards now.

LDG said:

Lauren, you're using measured amounts of food, right?
There is a chance they've gained some weight due to muscle conversion (muscle weighs more than fat) in the switch to raw. :nod: But it does sound like you MAY wan to scale some of the food back a little bit...
I know Walden doesn't need toppers, but do the others still use them? Because that might be an added source of calories you didn't factor into the equation. :dk:
FYI, I don't give the cats treats (FD or otherwise). Lazlo gets FD chicken whenever he asks for it, but he's different. :lol3: At this stage in life, he just gets spoiled. :heart3: Tuxie gets some sometimes - but otherwise, they don't eat between meals. Mean mommy! :lol3:
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As to Billy... I decided not to just alternate amounts of food every-other-day. I don't want it to be a routine his body comes to expect. I've decided to just randomly feed him either .75 or 1.5 ounces of food at any given meal. I'm keeping a spreadsheet to keep track of the average daily amount of food (I'll probably keep a week's running average), so that I don't accidentally cut his calories too much. On the every-other-day thing, he would have been due for a .75 ounce day. But I gave him 1.5 ounces for breakfast. I'll probably give him 0.75 ounces at the next meal. Sneaky mommy! :lol3:

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I do have the baggies measured, weighed and marked out to about two ounces each bag. Walden and Wendall both get about four ounces of raw ground each day plus a bedtime snack of 1/2 ounce of Air dried or freeze dried. I am going to keep them on chicken, turkey and rabbit for a bit and cut them down to 3 oz. Per day and still the 1/2 oz. At bedtime. I have to do weight checks. Did Walden today.... He weighs 14.9 oz. now. Up almost a pound. All my boys look bigger and yes, more muscled! Sleek and shiny too. .

The only ones who need toppers are Perla (of course :lol3 and sometimes Presley. I rarely give treats, only the WL maybe at bedtime and just a small piece. They really don't ask for treats anymore! And, of course, Lazlo is special :heart3:

Good plan for Billy! I will pay close attention to this thread and see how this works for boosting the metabolism.

Feralvr said:

 Walden and Wendall both get about four ounces of raw ground each day plus a bedtime snack of 1/2 ounce of Air dried or freeze dried.

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You do realize that 1/2 oz is the equivalent of about 2 oz rehydrated, right? If they are each getting 1/2 oz in addition to 4 oz of raw ground then they are each getting the equivalent of about 6 oz a day.

mschauer said:

You do realize that 1/2 oz is the equivalent of about 2 oz rehydrated, right? If they are each getting 1/2 oz in addition to 4 oz of raw ground then they are each getting the equivalent of about 6 oz a day.

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No, I did not realize that about rehydrating 1/2 ounce. OK - so I am clear on this in my head. First off, I just started them a couple of days ago on the Ziwi Peak air-dried raw. 1/2 ounce at night. You cannot "rehydrate" it. It is a beef jerky consistency and will not soak up any water.

BUT I have been giving them 1/2 ounce of S&C freeze dried raw - rehydrated!!!!! for a long time..... SO the 1/2 ounce of freeze-dried rehydrated with water is equivalent with 2 oz. of raw food???!!!!! Well, then that could very well be the problem. :slant:

Yup, freeze and air dried foods are concentrated nutrition. It's clearer if you compare calorie densities. Most reasonably lean, ground raw foods are between 33-35 kcal/oz. Stella and Chewy's chicken freeze dried is 135 kcal/oz (not rehydrated). So, calorie wise, 1 oz of the S&C = 3.9 oz of wet raw. 

Same with the Ziwi. According to their web site their air dried food is 136 kal/oz.

You understand the issue isn't the rehydrating? That 1/2 oz of freeze dried or air dried is approx 68 calories whether it is rehydrated or not.

Edit: kcal = calorie

Just to be clear, the S&C FD weighs 1/2 ounce before you rehydrate it? Or after? Because if it's before, as mschauer points out, basically they're eating 6 ounces of food a day. :nod: When they were all on canned, they needed about the same amount of food as my mid-range boys, and the most anyone eats now that they're on raw is 4.5 ounces. So that could be the problem!

mschauer said:

Yup, freeze and air dried foods are concentrated nutrition. It's clearer if you compare calorie densities. Most reasonably lean, ground raw foods are between 33-35 kcal/oz. Stella and Chewy's chicken freeze dried is 135 kcal/oz (not rehydrated). So, calorie wise, 1 oz of the S&C = 3.9 oz of wet raw. 

Same with the Ziwi. According to their web site their air dried food is 136 kal/oz.

You understand the issue isn't the rehydrating? That 1/2 oz of freeze dried or air dried is approx 68 calories whether it is rehydrated or not.

Edit: kcal = calorie

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OH :doh3: I have not been calculating calories - just ounces. When I started raw, I used the raw feeding calculation chart that A/C uses. I have been keeping the boys fairly close to those calculations in ounces per day. I will go way back on my thread to pull it up. A/C also calculated IF they needed to lose weight :anon: which I think they did - but instead they have gained. It just seems like so little food and I feel bad only feeding them about 3.5 oz. a day as they are always begging for more food after they finish their 2 oz. meals AM & PM. Bedtime is the 1/2 ounce. So I can't imagine cutting back but I guess I will have to. Anyway - now I understand that the 1/2 ounce of FD or air dried does in fact have many more calories than raw meat per ounce. That is why my boys are slowly gaining. Thank you for making this clear for me.

LDG said:

Just to be clear, the S&C FD weighs 1/2 ounce before you rehydrate it? Or after? Because if it's before, as mschauer points out, basically they're eating 6 ounces of food a day. :nod: When they were all on canned, they needed about the same amount of food as my mid-range boys, and the most anyone eats now that they're on raw is 4.5 ounces. So that could be the problem!

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Well, it would be before I rehydrate it. I have never weighed it after I added the water. I wonder what it would be ounce-wise after I rehydrate it -just to experiment. But it would still be the same calories before or after. That is not what I was going by. I was going by ounces per day total, regardless of whether it was raw meat OR FD/air dried. Now I understand.

Feralvr said:

OH :doh3: I have not been calculating calories - just ounces. When I started raw, I used the raw feeding calculation chart that A/C uses. I have been keeping the boys fairly close to those calculations in ounces per day. I will go way back on my thread to pull it up. A/C also calculated IF they needed to lose weight :anon: which I think they did - but instead they have gained. It just seems like so little food and I feel bad only feeding them about 3.5 oz. a day as they are always begging for more food after they finish their 2 oz. meals AM & PM. Bedtime is the 1/2 ounce. So I can't imagine cutting back but I guess I will have to. Anyway - now I understand that the 1/2 ounce of FD or air dried does in fact have many more calories than raw meat per ounce. That is why my boys are slowly gaining. Thank you for making this clear for me.
Well, it would be before I rehydrate it. I have never weighed it after I added the water. I wonder what it would be ounce-wise after I rehydrate it -just to experiment. But it would still be the same calories before or after. That is not what I was going by. I was going by ounces per day total, regardless of whether it was raw meat OR FD/air dried. Now I understand.

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Yep! The total ounces fed includes the moisture. It's like... 3/4 of a can of wet food is equivalent to 1/4 or 1/8 cup of dry food. So you have to "add" it back in (its equivalent, anyway), if feeding FD food to get an estimate of the actual amount of equivalent ounces. :nod: Your boys are essentially eating 1.5 ounces more than mine in equivalent amount of food, so that would explain it! (And I've had to cut Lazlo back to 1.3 ounces per meal, so he's only getting about 4 ounces a day. :lol3: ).

Funny though... mine don't beg for more food between meals. :dk: Laz does need his snack at 5:30am, but that wouldn't even be .5 ounces rehydrated (it's WL chicken, a few small nibbles).

Ooooo, poor Lauren is going to have to be a mean momma!

Curious.

I have six cats, ranging in weight from under 9 lbs to nearly 11.5. Breakfast 7 days a week is 10 oz; four half meat / half organ lunches are 12 oz while the other three lunches are bone-in meals averaging about 15 oz; two dinners are 10 oz and the other five dinners average about 8 oz. 

Adding all those numbers and dividing by seven, my kitties are each eating just a bit over 5.3 oz per day, and they are all in perfect body condition (their uniformly athletic build was one of the things my cat-only vet remarked upon the last time I brought them in for physicals).

I wonder why these six are, at least seemingly, eating so much more than what I'm seeing other TCS kitties eating?

And I wonder if the fact some of their meals vary in weight (which is what LDG is planning to do with Billy) has anything to do with it?

I no longer weight out the bone-in meals, I just eye-ball them. One bone-in meal a week is the chicken wing pieces from six chicken wings (no drummettes), one is rabbit ribs and other small bones, and the third is chicken ribs and small neck bones.

Two dinners a week is a the meat off a chicken quarter split between the six cats, two more dinners is the meat from a turkey drumstick split between the six, and the fifth and final dinner is the meat from the six drummettes (from the weekly chicken wing bone-in meal). As anyone who's ever shopped for chicken quarters and wings or turkey drumsticks can attest, these things really vary in weight. When I first started feeding prey model raw, I weighed them for several weeks and then averaged those weights to arrive at the 8 oz used above.

Very curious.

AC

No clue how to answer this.....
But....
Bugsy is 17lbs and 11oz right now. He is very slowly losing weight....... He eats the same as the other cats - 4.8oz a day (3 meals of 1.6oz). If he eats anything more than that.... forget it - either he stations or he gains.

The other two, Hope and Lucky, are on their perfect weight, at a little over 12lbs and a little over 11 respectively.

Considering that Bugsy was tipping the scales at almost 21, I am happy... BUT.... he has been losing extremely slowly. And it took a lot of adjusting his diet to get him to lose - a lot in the beginning was just to get him healthy..... which of course, was my first priority.

Oh, I should point here, that Bugsy's Ideal weight is not 12-13 lbs, is 16lbs :nod: per his vet, as a large Ragdoll :nod: So he is on his way

Auntie Crazy, it sounds like you don't feed your cats individually? That's one of my biggest obstacles. . .how do you know if everybody is eating their proper share of organ and bone? I thought I'd have to get a grinder and mix everything consistently in order to be sure, but maybe not?

WOW, AC, that is REALLY interesting. I wonder if the differing amounts of food fed at the meals does factor into it?

Also - when you feed a turkey drumstick, for example - do you remove the meat from the bone? It sounds like it, but I want to make sure. If you are taking the meat off the bone - how chunky is it? Maybe you could post pics of dinner dishes before you put them down for the cats? Please? Because even if it is chunks of meat, I'm wondering how much they work they have to do to eat their meal factors into it? Because so far only Shel, Tux and Chum get anything resembling chunks. The others just sit there and look at it and lick at it, but don't attempt to tear at it, so I'm still cutting up their meat

...another thing I'm wondering is, now that they're eating raw without a problem, is if I should start varying WHEN I feed them. In the wild, they wouldn't eat at the same time every day. I'm thinking of starting to feed within 1/2 hour of the current meal times, and slowly turning these into "windows" of time in which they eat. As it is, I often feed the late night meal about 1/2 hour late...

Auntie Crazy said:

Adding all those numbers and dividing by seven, my kitties are each eating just a bit over 5.3 oz per day, and they are all in perfect body condition (their uniformly athletic build was one of the things my cat-only vet remarked upon the last time I brought them in for physicals).

I wonder why these six are, at least seemingly, eating so much more than what I'm seeing other TCS kitties eating?

And I wonder if the fact some of their meals vary in weight (which is what LDG is planning to do with Billy) has anything to do with it?

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Actually my 4 are all fairly average sized cats, and together they eat 21 oz a day or 5.24 oz each. And each meal is the same size.

LDG said:

Yep! The total ounces fed includes the moisture. It's like... 3/4 of a can of wet food is equivalent to 1/4 or 1/8 cup of dry food. So you have to "add" it back in (its equivalent, anyway), if feeding FD food to get an estimate of the actual amount of equivalent ounces. :nod: Your boys are essentially eating 1.5 ounces more than mine in equivalent amount of food, so that would explain it! (And I've had to cut Lazlo back to 1.3 ounces per meal, so he's only getting about 4 ounces a day. :lol3: ).
Funny though... mine don't beg for more food between meals. :dk: Laz does need his snack at 5:30am, but that wouldn't even be .5 ounces rehydrated (it's WL chicken, a few small nibbles).
Ooooo, poor Lauren is going to have to be a mean momma!

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It is like rocket science trying to figure this all out :lol3: But, once you get it, it is easy !! Just takes me a bit longer than most

OH they don't beg for food in between meals. I mean they beg for MORE food right after they finish with each meal. The beggars are Presley, Perkins (the worst) and Pipsqueak. They want more!!! And can be quite persistant. Sometimes I oblige because I feel that they must still be hungry. Of course, me being a softy adds more calories which is leading to the weight gain. I have to turn a cold shoulder to them. Walden and Wendall don't beg because they eat upstairs in their room and I leave them after I put the bowls down. I don't supervise them which I will have to start doing. I found out that with some meals Wendall does not finish him meal completely. Walden is politely waiting for him to walk away and them licks his plate clean. Wally is none to happy that I found this out. I will have a house of fatties if I don't do something about this!!!

I don't know if this is a factor or not, but my youngest cat is either five or six, and four are 10. And even though they're more active now, running around and playing in an RV still makes them most likely not as active as kitties in a larger space. :dk:

Willowy said:

Auntie Crazy, it sounds like you don't feed your cats individually? That's one of my biggest obstacles. ?

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I have the same question :lol3: I have to supervise my four P's like a drill sargeant to make sure Perla eats her meal and the boys don't push her away. OR if someone doesn't finish, Perkins will finish everyone elses food. I swear that cat has a steel drum for a stomach that is never full. AND now I have to watch Walden and Wendall. or Walden will eat Wendall's food.

LDG said:

WOW, AC, that is REALLY interesting. I wonder if the differing amounts of food fed at the meals does factor into it?
Also - when you feed a turkey drumstick, for example - do you remove the meat from the bone? It sounds like it, but I want to make sure. If you are taking the meat off the bone - how chunky is it? Maybe you could post pics of dinner dishes before you put them down for the cats? Please?

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Pictures are definitely worth a thousand words. :lol3: That would be helpful and I would appreciate that as well.