Billy's weight loss journey (well, maybe)

ldg · Jul 28, 2012

:lol3: The "maybe" is explained below. I didn't want to keep talking about Billy's situation in mschauer's thread on Mickey ( http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245236/mickey-my-27-lbs-foster-and-his-journey-back-to-a-healthy-weight ).

So this is how Billy's thread evolved.

Willowy said:
One diet tip I heard for humans was to eat a "normal" amount of calories on one day, then very little the next day. Apparently this keeps your metabolism revved up but also decreases your total caloric intake. That might work for cats, too, especially since he kind of did that to himself because of the door, and it worked!

mschauer said:
Huh. So the idea is that if normally feeding 145 calories a day if I alternated feeding him 145 calories and, say, 120 calories a day that he would lose more weight than if I fed him 133 (the average of 145 and 120) calories a day?

Or is the idea that I would alternate between 145 and a lot less, like 80, for a quite low net calorie intake but that he wouldn't feel deprived because the very low calorie day is followed by a relatively high calorie day? I wouldn't want him feeling very hungry every other day.

Willowy said:
I think the second option. I believe the idea is to reduce total caloric intake without feeling deprived every day. Of course, there are a bazillion different wacky diet ideas out there, but that's one I thought made a little bit of sense, at least :tongue2:. Since he's been eating less (due to cat door circumstances) and didn't seem to mind, it could work for him. . .but who knows?

mschauer said:
Yeah, it's certainly something to keep in mind.

But I did lower his calorie intake last weekend so I was hoping/expecting to see a larger drop in his weight this week. The thing with the door *might* have resulted in him getting even fewer calories than I intended but I'm not sure. I didn't keep track of how much food I thew out because it had been sitting out too long with him not being able to get at it and I didn't keep track of how much extra I gave him to make up for what I threw out.

That's another possibility to add to my bag of tricks though. If I can't get him losing at the rate I want I might pull it out!

Thanks for the suggestion!

LDG said:
I think I'm going to try that with my Billy. :nod: (The varying calorie thing).

mschauer said:
Great! Let us know how it goes.

How far are you going to drop his calories? Have you tried Carolina's tip, the krill oil?

I'm getting close to where I'll want to try something unconventional but I'm not there yet.

LDG said:
The Amazon order is pending the consulting check. :lol3: The MegaRed (500mg Krill oil) will be on the way shortly, I'm hoping. Got the needle and pliers ready to go. :lol3: Carolina feeds her kids the krill oil once a day, all at once. I think I'll try that with Bill too.

Krill oil (according to the Mega Red website) has between 15% - 21% EPA and 9%-14% DHA. http://www.schiffmegared.com/professional/ingredients_pro.asp

The Pure Alaska Omega salmon oil I've been using says it is 10% EPA and 12% DHA. http://www.alaskaproteinrecovery.com/salmonoil
I've been dividing the 1000mg salmon oil supplement between 8 cats at each meal. That's 37.5mg EPA per cat per day, and 45mg DHA per cat per day.

The krill oil, at 500mg for Bill once a day, would be 75mg - 105mg of EPA and 45mg - 70mg of DHA per day.
I'd be kind of interested to try the calorie-change up to see if that alone has an impact, but I don't know if I'm patient enough not to start the krill oil when it arrives. :lol3:

I don't think I can drop Bill's overall calories. He's eating less - by far - than he "should" be for a cat his size. He's not obese, and does have a waist - but he does have a thick fat layer. He's not eating much more than Flowerbelle and Ming Loy (Flowerbelle is a little over 7 pounds, and Ming Loy is a little over 8 pounds). He's 16 pounds - and has been steady at this weight no matter what, or how much he's been fed for two years. In fact, that's how much he got up to free-feeding dry. In the switch from dry to canned back in the fall of 2010, his body must have gone into that diet/starvation mode and just settled in there (for others not familiar with Bill's story, he's been to the vet for blood work and thyroid check-up). But he didn't lose any weight then either. !!!

I did bump his food intake up to 3.6 ounces (of raw) a day from the 3 ounces I'd taken him down to in hopes he'd lose some weight (from the starting amount of 4.5 ounces). He just seems to keep a stable weight no matter how much he does or doesn't eat. :scratch: (The vets are puzzled too LOL). And his level of activity doesn't seem to change. He and Flowerbelle are my most active cats.

...And the really funny thing about him is - no matter how much he does or doesn't eat, he tries to poach food from the other cats, which I don't allow. But when each meal is over, he doesn't beg for food or act hungry. :dk:

So what I think I'll do is feed him 3/4 of an ounce at each meal one day, and 1.5 ounces at each meal the next day. That works out to 3 1/3 ounces average per day, a little less than he's been getting recently, but more than the 3 he was eating. :dk: I'm going to start tomorrow. I'll see how he reacts to 3/4 of an ounce at the meals. But a 100% difference in meals one day vs the next should be enough to "rev up" his metabolism if this is going to work (for him). :dk: I'll keep you posted.

RIccaDawn said:
LDG,
You should start a separate thread for Billy. His story is also very interesting to follow and I'm loving reading about him. It's kind of like Biggest Loser for Cats with you guys lol

...and I took that advice. :lol3:

LDG said:
Well, I thought about doing that, but mschauer was asking questions... and that post is really about all there is to report. :lol3: I don't have a scale of any kind here (well, other than the kitchen scale), so I won't be doing weekly weigh-ins. All there really is to do is see how he reacts to the small meals, and maybe take him in a month or so to get weighed if we can't see that he's losing weight. :dk: By not altering his total caloric intake much, I doubt fatty liver is much of a concern. :cross:

mschauer said:
Sounds like a plan! I can't wait to hear how it goes. I know it's going to be tempting but please don't do the krill oil and the alternating calorie thing at the same time. We want to know which one, if either, works! :lol3:

I just weighted Mickel and he is at 25:3. That's a total of 5 oz for the still incomplete week and 2 of those oz are post cat-door-fiasco so it looks like I'm be staying with my current plan for a bit longer at least.

He's laying at my feet on his back sleeping. Did I mention he snores? :lol3:

LDG said:
And OK. I'll hold off on the krill oil.

I should add.... even though Billy is probably 4 pounds overweight (potentially up to 5.5), none of the vets seem concerned that he's at any risk for diabetes given the raw diet. Apparently about 50% of cases of diabetes can be controlled with diet, and as the kitties get almost no carbs, none of his vets seem to think it's much of a risk. The main potential problem would be arthritis as he ages.

So that's Billy's story. We transitioned to raw in January of this year (from an all canned diet). I played with the amounts of his food. I started him at 4.5 ounces a day - the same amount the other larger kitties (10.5 pounds to 12 pounds at the time) were getting. This coincided with how much wet food they'd all been eating. (The bigger kitties had been getting about - or a little more - than 6 oz a day, just because of how I divvied up the 5.5 ounce cans between the 8 cats at each meal). I slowly walked him down to 3 ounces a day. And he didn't lose weight! So here we are.

ldg · Jul 28, 2012

And this is what Bill looks like. Honestly, he doesn't look so fat - just bigger than the other cats. And in these pictures, he doesn't look grossly fat or anything - at least I don't think so. :dk:

Sorry this first one is blurry. I just have not been able to get a picture of him from the top not moving. :lol3:

_Billy chubby 3 120728.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

_Billy chubby 120728.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

_Billy chubby 2 120728.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

ldg · Jul 28, 2012

So I started the smaller meals today (he'll get three 3/4 ounce meals today and then tomorrow he'll get 1.5 ounce meals). It looked like such a pathetic amount of food in his dish, poor baby. :lol3: I cut it up really small and spread it around so it would take longer to eat it. He seemed a little more anxious than usual between when he finished and everyone else did, but he ran around like normal after breakfast playing, and hasn't been pestering me for food. And I made chicken sandwiches for Gary and I, which gets several of them going.

So let's see what happens! :cross:

mschauer · Jul 28, 2012

What a handsome boy!

I *swear* one day I am going to have a glossy black cat!

I can't wait to see if how the alternating calories and/or krill oil works out for him!

carolina · Jul 28, 2012

How much does he weight and how much does he need to weigh? I swear, he looks perfect to me, and not an ounce overweight..... He is eating 3oz a day? One thing is for sure, he is gorgeous! :love:

ldg · Jul 28, 2012

mschauer said:
What a handsome boy! :heart3: I *swear* one day I am going to have a glossy black cat!

I can't wait to see if how the alternating calories and/or krill oil works out for him!

Thanks.

He was always really soft and glossy, but since being on raw, it's hard to keep my hands off of him. :lol3: Of course the heaviest kitty is the snuggliest cuddle bug. He loves being carried like a baby, crawls into my lap (and he's much bigger than my lap :lol3: ) - and I get a real workout hefting him around.

Carolina said:
How much does he weight and how much does he need to weigh? I swear, he looks perfect to me, and not an ounce overweight..... He is eating 3oz a day? One thing is for sure, he is gorgeous! :love:

He weighs 16 pounds. He's been steady at that weight for two years. He bulked up to that free-feeding dry food. :anon: I switched them to all wet in October/Nov 2010, then raw in January of this year. And no matter how much he's eaten (or not) of what, he hasn't gained or lost weight. I suspect that in the switch from dry to canned, his body went into "starvation" mode and reset his metabolism. :dk: It's really kind of a mystery. :scratch:

He should probably ideally weight 10.5 pounds, but the initial goal was 14 with a target of 12. But he doesn't seem to go up or down from his steady-state 16. :dk: Shel and Lazlo have similar frames - they are both longer and taller than Billy. Lazlo is overweight by 1.5 pounds now. He weighs 13. Shel weighs 11 3/4 pounds, and the vet is basically happy with where he is.

These are terrible photos, because someone was moving in each of them, but they do give a comparison of Bill and Shel:

_Billy chubby vs Shelly 120728.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

_Billy chubby vs Shelly 3 120728.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

_Billy chubby vs Shelly 2 120728.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

wolcar · Jul 28, 2012

Those first set of pictures I thought he looked pretty good. In the first comparison picture I can tell which one is him but in the others, honestly, I couldn't tell. It's amazing how people, and apparently cats, carry weight so differently. My cat is 16 lbs and looks enormous compared to your 16lb boy, and mine is very tall and long. lol Mine is long hair, though.

I can see what you're saying, though. He has a waist but there is that small layer of fat there. I'd be interested to see if the day-to-day calorie fluctuation works. I did hear that before in regards to people losing weight.

wolcar · Jul 28, 2012

GOsh, Shel is 5lbs lighter than billy? He doesn't look that much bigger. Does Billy's have a belly that isn't visible in those pictures?

carolina · Jul 28, 2012

I know, shocking! :thud:

ldg · Jul 28, 2012

:lol3: Yes, I guess Billy carries his weight well! Technically, he's closer to four pounds heavier than Sheldon. And to be fair, I think he's wider than Shel, though he has shorter legs and is not as long. I guess the fat is well distributed. But I can feel it - and it's thick. :nod: He doesn't really have a big belly.

But this is what he looked like at 10 pounds (fully grown adult) - when he was still outside:

Billy & Bing 080830 walking together cropped.jpg

ldg
Jul 28, 2012

riccadawn · Jul 28, 2012

I'm in agreement with everyone else here - he carries it very well and doesn't appear to weigh that much! There are certain humans that can be said about too though I suppose!

ldg · Jul 28, 2012

I just had to pop in here and add... he ate his 3/4 ounce at dinner time without complaint! :dk: Gary and I had salmon for dinner (!!). Shel was up on the tree going nuts, and Bill didn't join him. :dk:

I think he'll really enjoy tomorrow's 1.5 ounces at each meal. :lol3:

I really hope something works. He's healthy, and the vet thinks all is OK... but Billy - whether 12 pounds, 14 pounds, or his current 16 pounds - REALLY ought to be eating more than a little over 3 ounces a day! That's just 1.3% of his body weight, poor guy!

carolina · Jul 28, 2012

Laurie, why not alternate what he is already eating, and a day with 4.5 oz.... I know you will be increasing the amount of calories for those days... But you will be trying to push him out of starvation mode too....
Let's face it, 4.5 oz is already less than what he should be eating.... (in theory, I mean)
I don't know, but I can't think about feeding a cat that big 2.25oz a day, even for a day.... Just my two cents here :hugs:

Bottom line is, his metabolism is shot, and reducing the quantities for those days, as you have seen, won't do anything..... But I just think there is probably minimum qtys you want to stick by it, and I don't know.... 2.25 oz for that big of a cat scares me

You know me too, I am very :paranoid:

:lol3:

kittylover23 · Jul 29, 2012

Awwwwwwww Laurie, Billy is gorgeous!!!! I absolutely love him! And you know about my fondness for tuxedo cats! :lol3: I think I may follow what you're doing with Cookie - she weighs around 15.5lbs now, and I'm starting to think she's about 3lbs overweight for her frame.

at first we just thought she was a big cat, but now I wanna help her out with losing some of the...blubber. :lol3:

ldg · Jul 29, 2012

Carolina, Bill was just in for his annual a couple of weeks ago (and had his thyroid tested). Everything looked great.

The problem is that if he's in starvation mode, and this is where his metabolism has settled, feeding him more calories may make him gain weight, and we definitely don't want that. He's been eating this equivalent amount of food for months - and he was eating less canned than should theoretically support that body weight for over a year. So if there were going to be problems nutritionally, they should have turned up in blood work this year. The vet and I discussed what to do at length, and the only conclusion we could come to was keep him as active as possible, and don't decrease or increase his food - maybe increase it a touch. Because of that and the reactions I got on TCS, I did bump his food intake up from 3 ounces a day to 3.6 ounces a day (1.2 ounces per meal as opposed to 1 ounce a meal), an increase of 20%. And with this plan (2.25 ounces one day, 4.5 ounces the next), that averages out to 3.375 ounces a day, so a slight reduction (6%) in the total.

IF this helps perk up his metabolism, then IF he loses some weight, I'll see if I can gradually bump his intake without putting weight back on. But at this point, the vet's opinion is that he's getting what he needs from this amount of food, and we definitely don't want him to gain weight. The major risks are diabetes - which given he's on raw with no carbs, it's most likely not really a risk, and arthritis from the extra weight on his joints.

What I should probably consider, if this doesn't work to get him to lose weight (and subsequently trying krill oil instead of salmon oil), is putting him on a glucosamine/chrondroitin/msm/hyaluronic acid supplement now, to help prevent joint degeneration, rather than wait for there to be a problem.

ldg · Jul 29, 2012

kittylover23 said:
Awwwwwwww Laurie, Billy is gorgeous!!!! I absolutely love him! And you know about my fondness for tuxedo cats! :lol3: I think I may follow what you're doing with Cookie - she weighs around 15.5lbs now, and I'm starting to think she's about 3lbs overweight for her frame. at first we just thought she was a big cat, but now I wanna help her out with losing some of the...blubber. :lol3:

Yeah, he's gorgeous and knows it. :lol3: We love him too.

If you give it a try, keep us posted!! I'm really curious to see if it'll help - if not Billy, other cats with more normal metabolism. :nod:

wolcar · Jul 29, 2012

Billy looked awesome at 10lbs. I can see the difference between him now and then but I'm shocked at how good he looks at 16 lbs.

ldg · Jul 29, 2012

You know, I am too. Relative to the other kitties, he weighs a ton, and I feel it picking him up. But when I was putting the pictures together, I was shocked at how fat he doesn't look. :lol3:

One last picture - of Billy not looking fat. :lol3: As you can see, he really doesn't have a tummy. Obviously the weight is really well distributed. :dk:

_Billy no tummy 120729.jpg

ldg
Jul 29, 2012

feralvr · Jul 29, 2012

Boy am I in trouble here. :anon: My boys seem to be getting bigger and look a bit fatter than Billy

... Although, Presley looks exactly like Billy in the weight department. Billy and Presley look like Sumo wrestler's - well - that is what I call Presley anyway. Walden is much bigger than Billy and I am almost afraid to weigh him, even though I must... I need to seriously recalculate what I am doling out for my boys. Perla is fine, but all the boys are getting bigger since starting raw.

Anyway - LOVE BILLY!!!!!!!!!!!! He is one handsome gent!!!!!!

and Perla sends her love :kiss:

:rub: :heart3:

ldg · Jul 30, 2012

Lauren, you're using measured amounts of food, right?

There is a chance they've gained some weight due to muscle conversion (muscle weighs more than fat) in the switch to raw. :nod: But it does sound like you MAY wan to scale some of the food back a little bit...

I know Walden doesn't need toppers, but do the others still use them? Because that might be an added source of calories you didn't factor into the equation. :dk:

FYI, I don't give the cats treats (FD or otherwise). Lazlo gets FD chicken whenever he asks for it, but he's different. :lol3: At this stage in life, he just gets spoiled.

:heart3: Tuxie gets some sometimes - but otherwise, they don't eat between meals. Mean mommy! :lol3:

*************************

As to Billy... I decided not to just alternate amounts of food every-other-day. I don't want it to be a routine his body comes to expect. I've decided to just randomly feed him either .75 or 1.5 ounces of food at any given meal. I'm keeping a spreadsheet to keep track of the average daily amount of food (I'll probably keep a week's running average), so that I don't accidentally cut his calories too much. On the every-other-day thing, he would have been due for a .75 ounce day. But I gave him 1.5 ounces for breakfast. I'll probably give him 0.75 ounces at the next meal. Sneaky mommy! :lol3:

Billy's weight loss journey (well, maybe)

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