FINALLY... almost 2 weeks after we thought she was going to give birth... the kittens arrive

Almost 2 weeks after I was convinced Ernie was in the early stages of labor, she FINALLY gave birth to a mindblowing litter of EIGHT.

...GAH!!!

They're all charcoal-black tabbies or black cats except for that one little odd one out, Earl Grey. (Or Lady Grey, if it's a girl, we can't tell yet) ^_^

And yes, in spite of all our efforts and the near-dozen nest boxes and enclosed cat-houses we built for her, she did finally decide that the only acceptable place to give birth was right outside the back door, in a lowered recess in front of an A/C vent on a bed of dry leaves. She's objected STRONGLY to being relocated, so we've lined the spot with clean wool and teeshirts and built a protected shelter around her that she can enter and leave but is hidden and safe from any other animals. She and the kittens will be moved indoors or kept in the enclosed patio space back there, whichever causes the least stress to mama and babies. Ernie is an extremely willful cat and although she is a tamed feral cat, she will not tolerate being kept indoors for very long and our indoor cats will not tolerate having her around, even the smell of her stresses them.

So although she has planted herself firmly in an outdoor nest, she is being monitored almost 24/7, because there is ALWAYS someone awake and using the computer or TV in the room she's nested outside of. She and the babies are very, very safe in their cleverly air-conditioned nest, and we're making very sure they're all comfortable, clean, and well-fed and hydrated. Mama and babies are all doing very, very well, especially after my sister built a little food dish that could be fastened so mama-Ernie could reach it without leaving her nest. She was VERY happy to have that, since she's such a dedicated mother she's hesitant to leave her babies for very long even to come out and eat.

Splendid!  Good luck!

do you have the possibility to weigh them every day? In grammes or equivalent.

If everything continue to ge well it will be a nice memory.  If something is not going well, this meticolous weighing is often the best - or even only - way to notice something is not good, etc...

*vibes*

StefanZ said:

Splendid!  Good luck!

do you have the possibility to weigh them every day? In grammes or equivalent.

If everything continue to ge well it will be a nice memory.  If something is not going well, this meticolous weighing is often the best - or even only - way to notice something is not good, etc...

*vibes*

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We haven't been weighing them but we do pick them up and give them a quick look-over a couple of times every day. I am pretty sure we COULD get a little kitchen scale to weigh them on. Is there somewhere I can find information about what exactly we should be monitoring when we do that?

I'm not sure if I am understanding you question fully so please re-ask it if this isn't the response you were looking for.

The idea of weighing them everyday is that most of the time the first sign that something is wrong is weight loss and kittens crash very hard and very fast. Weight loss could be an indication of anything from not getting enough milk to an infection to a birth defect. You may be able to tell based on the circumstances if there is an illness, but something like not getting enough milk can only be known if you are closely watching their weight. The general rule of thumb I follow is weight loss= emergency vet visit. As far as a list of what can go wrong? Well, that list would be endless but I mentioned the main two: not enough milk and infection/illness. The common things you see are: gastrointestinal bacterias or parasites, worms, fleas, ticks (since they are outside), and ringworm. Dehydration is another biggie. My other foster rule of thumb: something will go wrong with every litter, whether it's a problem with Mom to some sort of outbreak among the litter or one sick kitten in particular. You just have to watch as closely as you can and be as prepared as possible. 

Getting weights is even more critical when you have such a large litter because supplemental feeding is something you may realistically have to do. I would have KMR and bottles on hand just in case. When it's two or three kittens sometimes you can pick up on small changes but when there are eight that becomes a lot more difficult. I got my scale at Macy's for under $20 so they are not too expensive and make a huge difference. 

I didn't see your original post so I am not sure if this is your cat or a stray but regardless congratulations on the new additions! Also, remember now that she has given birth she can go back into heat at any time and get pregnant again. If you can move them inside when she is a little more comfortable I would, and get her spayed as soon as possible. I'm sure you don't want 8 more before these 8 are even weaned! 

Oops sorry re-read and see that indoors is not an option. Perhaps talk to the vet about getting her fixed as soon as it is safe. 

EB24 said:

I'm not sure if I am understanding you question fully so please re-ask it if this isn't the response you were looking for.

The idea of weighing them everyday is that most of the time the first sign that something is wrong is weight loss and kittens crash very hard and very fast. Weight loss could be an indication of anything from not getting enough milk to an infection to a birth defect. You may be able to tell based on the circumstances if there is an illness, but something like not getting enough milk can only be known if you are closely watching their weight. The general rule of thumb I follow is weight loss= emergency vet visit. As far as a list of what can go wrong? Well, that list would be endless but I mentioned the main two: not enough milk and infection/illness. The common things you see are: gastrointestinal bacterias or parasites, worms, fleas, ticks (since they are outside), and ringworm. Dehydration is another biggie. My other foster rule of thumb: something will go wrong with every litter, whether it's a problem with Mom to some sort of outbreak among the litter or one sick kitten in particular. You just have to watch as closely as you can and be as prepared as possible. 

Getting weights is even more critical when you have such a large litter because supplemental feeding is something you may realistically have to do. I would have KMR and bottles on hand just in case. When it's two or three kittens sometimes you can pick up on small changes but when there are eight that becomes a lot more difficult. I got my scale at Macy's for under $20 so they are not too expensive and make a huge difference.

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Ohhhh. Okay.   We have an old scale used for weighing envelopes to calculate how many stamps were needed to send them. I'll use that. ^_^ Thank you for the information!

I didn't see your original post so I am not sure if this is your cat or a stray but regardless congratulations on the new additions! Also, remember now that she has given birth she can go back into heat at any time and get pregnant again. If you can move them inside when she is a little more comfortable I would, and get her spayed as soon as possible. I'm sure you don't want 8 more before these 8 are even weaned!

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Yeah, we didn't know cats could get pregnant again so soon after giving birth, which is why she has a second litter... we didn't know how soon we could/should have her spayed after she had her first. We guessed sort of wrong.

Now that we've learned how overly efficient cats are at reproducing, we CERTAINLY do not want more kittens. The notion of forcing or allowing a lady cat to have two litters at the same time nursing just makes me wince. Pregnancy is not easy. I could tell she was VERY uncomfortable in the last 2 or 3 weeks of her pregnancy, pretty much all the time. I really don't want her to live a life where she has to go through that anymore. No one here does. We're doing our best to get her taken care of and make sure she and her kittens have a long, healthy life that does not include making any more cats.

We will try again to move her inside in a couple of days. If she won't tolerate it this time, I don't think we'll try again unless it seems really necessary for some reason. I just worry that it can't be good to stress her or the kittens out if they just do not want to be inside. We can set up other protective barriers outside much more easily than we can make a cat change her mind about where she feels calm and safe and able to care for her babies.

Also, another question!

Would it be safe to tie some colored string loosely around the kittens' necks so we can tell them apart? That would make it easier to keep track of which ones are which when weighing them...

That scale should work fine. Also try to weigh them around the same time everyday- it will give you the most accurate reading. 

I didn't realize it was her second. I also didn't know how quickly they could become pregnant again either which is why I mentioned it. Before i started fostering I thought as long as they were nursing they were safe. Yeah, no, I was definitely wrong on that one! The saying shouldn't be "reproduce like rabbits" but "reproduce like cats"!

I would try to move her inside again: she may be more willing now that she is in full nesting mode. For the first few weeks they don't tend to leave their babies much anyway so she may be more okay with it. But, if she totally freaks then yes I agree that isn't good for her or the babies. If she has to stay outside is there any way to enclose her? Maybe cover that area in chicken wire with a top you can lift off? Just something to keep her from mating again. Or perhaps you have a garage you could set her up in? It might be spacious enough to let her roam while keeping her safe from pesky male suitors. 

What I do for similarly colored kittens is go buy the paper wristbands that they give out at concerts and secure those to their necks. You can either do different colors or just the white ones and write their names or a number on it. They usually sell these at office supply stores in bulk for a couple of bucks. Just make sure they aren't too tight that they choke the kitten or too loose that they can get their paws stuck in there or slip out of it. For kittens this small about one finger between the fur and collar is enough. As they grow just cut it off and put on a new one. Another poster mentioned the other day that she uses hairbands. I haven't tried this method but I am going to for sure. Just follow the same guidelines. My concern with string is if it catches on something it could strangle them (versus paper wristbands that will tear or the elastics that will stretch enough for them to slide out). Also, if it came off and was eaten that could cause an intestinal block. 

EB24 said:

That scale should work fine. Also try to weigh them around the same time everyday- it will give you the most accurate reading. 

I didn't realize it was her second. I also didn't know how quickly they could become pregnant again either which is why I mentioned it. Before i started fostering I thought as long as they were nursing they were safe. Yeah, no, I was definitely wrong on that one! The saying shouldn't be "reproduce like rabbits" but "reproduce like cats"!

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Same time every day. Okay.

I tooootally thought nursing=safe too. Like, that makes complete sense in my brain, why would nature not do that? But nature is EVIL sometimes, apparently.

I would try to move her inside again: she may be more willing now that she is in full nesting mode. For the first few weeks they don't tend to leave their babies much anyway so she may be more okay with it. But, if she totally freaks then yes I agree that isn't good for her or the babies. If she has to stay outside is there any way to enclose her? Maybe cover that area in chicken wire with a top you can lift off? Just something to keep her from mating again. Or perhaps you have a garage you could set her up in? It might be spacious enough to let her roam while keeping her safe from pesky male suitors. 

What I do for similarly colored kittens is go buy the paper wristbands that they give out at concerts and secure those to their necks. You can either do different colors or just the white ones and write their names or a number on it. They usually sell these at office supply stores in bulk for a couple of bucks. Just make sure they aren't too tight that they choke the kitten or too loose that they can get their paws stuck in there or slip out of it. For kittens this small about one finger between the fur and collar is enough. As they grow just cut it off and put on a new one. Another poster mentioned the other day that she uses hairbands. I haven't tried this method but I am going to for sure. Just follow the same guidelines. My concern with string is if it catches on something it could strangle them (versus paper wristbands that will tear or the elastics that will stretch enough for them to slide out). Also, if it came off and was eaten that could cause an intestinal block.

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We don't have a garage, but the place she's nested is a kind of patio... it's an open space with the house on one side, the ground is brick, and the rest is surrounded by a brick wall about 3 feet high with iron bars another 4 feet or so above that. We're going to get some mesh or screen stuff and cover the bars, which will make it very difficult if not impossible for other animals to get into that space, At the very least, it won't be worth their trouble to try too hard. I don't believe she will be able to get out of that area once we do that, and if any carousing tom gets IN, well... we'll know right away from the noise he'll make trying to get back out and be able to trap him, I hope!

This is my project for tomorrow, I think.

Paper collars are a good idea! I don't know why I didn't think of that. I can easily make some paper collars and put a dot of color on them with non-toxic crayons.

It sounds like you have it all under control! Her outdoor space sounds more enclosed than I was thinking in my head so I think you have a good chance of keeping those boys away with a cover. I suppose if one does get in you can trap and neuter him. If she does end up pregnant again you can talk to your vet about terminating it. This totally depends on your belief system, and some vets will and others won't. Personally I don't know if I could do that, but if it was a cat's 3rd litter in a short time frame I would really consider it because it's so unhealthy for her. With each litter the chances of something going wrong increases and I don't know if I could put her through that. Not saying at all one way is right and another is wrong (I'm Switzerland on the topic- since I work with a shelter I never have to make that choice), just saying if you end up in that situation despite what is clearly your best efforts it may be worth considering. 

Nature is a cruel mistress sometimes. Just think of the entire process of giving birth- it's just not fair! I don't have kids so I may be totally wrong but I thought humans couldn't (or were at least way less likely) to get pregnant while nursing, so naturally, I thought that applied to cats. Or maybe it's just right after giving birth you have zero interest in going through the actions that make the baby. Perhaps I should look into this before reproducing.... The fact is, cats like to get down and dirty just about anytime, anywhere. And I have heard of Toms clawing through screen doors to get to their lady friend so make sure that top is on tight! 

So you say you don't know why you didn't think of paper collars. Now why is it that I use store bought paper collars and yet have never thought of making my own? It sounds like together we make one whole functioning person but alone there are a lot of holes in our brains!