Confused on diet & searching for facts?

kisami

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Yesterday I got a long lecture from my vet who disapproves of my food choice for my kitties. I feed 50/50 Blue Buffalo normal variety with Blue Buffalo Wilderness and wet food daily. I didn't just randomly pick something, I read quite a bit before deciding on this. I have 4 cats from almost 2 months- 7years currently.

My vet STRONGLY suggested I switch to Hill's Science Diet....

My issue is that there is just so much info out there and it is really difficult to get a hold on what is true vs what is lies, half truths or exaggeration, opinion and scare tactics.

Several years ago I was diagnosed with diabetes among other things and right away I dove in learning all I could about nutrition and worked really hard to get myself taken off meds through diet. Through it I learned that nutrition is such a difficult topic and even science doesn't have a perfect 100% understanding of it yet. They are always learning new things and changing old ideas. And on top of it everyone has their own opinion. The health world is full of ideas on food/nutrition/diet, some make sense some have alot of followers and some are crack pot. I was just talking in a group about how we get a calorie counter, a vegan, a vegetarian, someone on atkins, primal, and throw in someone who believes in ear stapling and you will have quite a mess of people saying they are right and calling everyone else wrong lol They can all back it up with proof that sounds right on and it confuses the entire mess for someone curious.

*i am not saying any of those choices are wrong in any way. My point is that in every well meaning and even great healthy group a few people will get caught up & end up spreading info as if it were 100% fact when it isn't quite so.

And that is with people. It can be so difficult to get a hold of what is right and what is wrong when you are trying to figure it all out and in the end you pretty much have to just have faith and choose one that makes sense to you. And that is fine when it is me but when it comes to my pets it leaves me in a state of worry that perhaps I am wrong...

When it comes to pet food it is pretty much the same. The food companies even many of the good ones have their top priority in profit and not actually what is best for pets. They can bend the truth so much and confuse us. They can add stuff that is harmful and things not even right for that type of animal.

Yet on the flip side you have alot of opinions from consumers too. And some make rational good points but you wonder are they just repeating things they heard? is there any truth to it or is atleast some of it fears/rumors just being repeated again and again with not any actual proof to back it up either? How much of it is truth and how much is the same thing the pet food companies do with using the good sounding words to make us agree with them? Pet people are super passionate about their pets and can be very strong minded and opinionated about what is best. There is nothing wrong with that & i gladly count myself into that group. Though that being the case sometimes it can lead to open honest discussions being shut down and people being made to feel they are bad pet parents.


Part of this was inspired from me doing alot of research into my rats food. Atleast with cats you have some good options at your local store, they may not be everyone's ideal but there are good options. Sadly almost no pet store actually sells good rat food. Almost every type of rat food on the shelves isn't even something that should be made for rats nutritional needs! It really opened my eyes to how evil the pet food companies are for one. And it leaves so many rat owners just confused on diet that it is pretty much the #1 issue people ask about lol. And it splits rat owners into different categories just as it does with people's nutrition like I mentioned above. This can lead to some debates that can get heated lol

I do believe that there are pet parents who are smart and have done all the research themselves and understand it and how to take that information and turn it into a smart diet. I also believe that the number of people who can & do, do that is not that high. That the majority of people just repeat what they are told because it sounds good to them. The question being how do you sort through it all to find out who is even close to being right. For example and I mean this with zero offense, this forum seems to be highly in support of raw food diet. I have been on alot of cat forums where this is not the case at all. I am not saying one is right and one is not at all, I am just pointing out that there are different groups of people who view it differently.


Anyways I tend to ramble sorry. My point is that I have read and read and read until my mind spins with so much information it is hard to keep it all straight. I am not a vet nor a scientist or even probably all that smart lmao! But I never just take information handed to me blindly, I want to know how, what, where it came from. Anyone can make a fact page and fill it with pretty shiny words that sound great to me but that doesn't mean any of it is actually true or backed up by anything more then opinion. Even if there was a study there is probably another study saying the exact opposite.

Mostly I would always prefer to have sources backed up by partial outside information. And for the most part I am having a very hard time finding this. I know it is difficult in the pet world because alot of the people doing studies and collecting information have their own reasons to protect. But the entire process has me feeling lost and confused and worrying because I want the best for my babies.

It is just so frustraiting and annoying. Mostly this is just a rant on my vet. I have an appointment with a different vet on monday so perhaps I will like that one better. I hope I didn't offend anyone, that was not my intent. I am very much not saying anyone is right or wrong in their choices, just that there are alot of different opinions & I get so frustraited trying to find real answers about any of it that I feel I can trust.

 
 

mschauer

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I don't see anything offensive in your post. Pet nutrition is confusing for the same reasons human nutrition is confusing. Because we know very little about it. How often have you heard contradictory and confusing information about human nutrition? 

As with human nutrition, there are plenty of people who are convinced that they have all the answers with regards to pet nutrition and will argue quite strongly in favor of their opinion. But online forums are just a bunch of people talking. I don't really understand why people seem to assume that just because something is posted in a forum that the person posting knows what they are talking about. 

Online forums are a great way to get information. Just don't assume the information is accurate unless you can verify it with a credible source.
 

Willowy

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At least we know, for a biological fact, that cats are obligate carnivores. Now, what this means for your cat food choices can be debated all day. . .but at least we know that much :tongue2:.
 

emilymaywilcha

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Thank you for posting, Kisami. You did not offend anyone and it is fine to ramble about the fact search problem. Many TCS members agree it is difficult to choose the right foods for their cats because of the bad information out there.

Starting with human nutrition because you mentioned it: The truth is different people need different diets. Some people lose weight better with the Atkins diet. Others lose their extra pounds with the South Beach diet. Like smokers trying to quit, there is not a one-size-fits-all for losing a lot of extra pounds. Because people must exercise to burn calories, workout routines affect their opinions about dieting.

There also are people who insist it is important to be a vegetarian for vegan for health reasons just to talk others into not supporting slaughter of meat animals, adding hormones to dairy cows, whatever farmers do to make chickens lay more eggs, and other cruel farming practices. Of course, that has nothing to do with nutrition. They just want everyone to think it is. Others do it because of taste or allergies.

Scientific proof exists people are omnivores, but can live without animal products and should eat a lot more plants than animals. The opposite is true for cats. As obligate carnivores they have no use for any kind of plant-based foods and can't live without eating animal proteins and fat. We know this because:
  • Cats cannot make taurine, which comes from meat, and must eat it
  • Cats lack the enzyme needed to convert linoleic acid to omega-3s
  • Cats lack the enzyme needed to convert beta carotine to vitamin A
  • Cats lack the teeth required for chewing fruits, veggies, and grains
  • Cats do not need any kind of carbohydrates
  • Cats make their own acorbic acid (vitamin C)
In other words plant-based ingredients are completely useless to cats. Carbohydrates, not fat, make cats overweight.

As if that is not bad enough, many cats are allergic to grains, so corn, soy, rice, and wheat can make cats sick. That is why "grain-free" is now a huge selling point for some pet food manufacturers.

About raw feeding: The people who do this say it is safe because cats have very acidic stomachs and short intestinal tracts. If they did not, do you think cats would be obligate carnivores? Probably not. Cooking food destroys many of the nutritents in meat so if the cat is not eating raw food, supplements must be added. But the main reason people feed raw meat to their cats is to make sure they are not eating any bad stuff a lot of pet food companies sneak in their products.

I do not feed raw anything to my cat, but because there is scientific proof the raw food diet is what cats are built for I am no longer opposed to the practice. I hope this helps explain why so many TCS members prefer to feed raw instead of commercial food to their cats.
 

mschauer

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For example and I mean this with zero offense, this forum seems to be highly in support of raw food diet. I have been on alot of cat forums where this is not the case at all. I am not saying one is right and one is not at all, I am just pointing out that there are different groups of people who view it differently.
 
I think you have made a mistake I think a lot of people make when trying to determine roughly how accepted an opinion is. That is, you see that a high percentage of posts are from people who support that opinion and assume that means the entire site (I assume that is what you mean by "forum") is highly supportive of the opinion. Consider this: there is a raw feeding forum at this site that is essentially "protected" from hecklers. There are very few sites like this where raw feeders can ask questions and share information without having to deal with anti-raw feeders telling them they are going to "kill" their pets. Because of this there are probably more raw feeders at this site than at most. And, again because of the attraction of the raw feeding forum, more of those people are going to be the type that are willing to post and aren't just "lurkers". It is natural that they would also be more likely to post in other forums as well, such as the general nutrition forum.

So, I don't know that it is accurate to say that this site highly supports a raw diet. The site owner just recognizes it as a legitimate feeding option and has provided a forum for discussing it and you see more raw feeders here because of the existence of that forum.

Oh, BTW, good luck in finding a vet you like better. I wish I could talk to my vet about nutrition but at least she doesn't reprimand me for what I feed (raw).
 
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emilymaywilcha

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Now let's look at the problems with commercial diets. Most TCS members know wet is better than dry because cats have a low thirst drive, so they get most of their water from prey animals in the wild. (This is an adaptation to living in the desert thousands of years ago.) Another way it is superior to dry food is the lower amount of carbohydrates. The manufacturing process to make kibbles requires using carbohydrates.

Unfortunately, wet foods have their own problems. To make gravy thicker, a carcinogen called carrageenan is often used. Even other types of gravy thickeners are useless to cats and best not included in pet foods. In addition, the way companies make chunks requires using bad stuff. They don't just chop meat like you do for yourself. Nasty ingredients are used to form that shape, just like they are for kibbles.

This means whether you buy wet or dry cat food, you are buying stuff that is bad for cats even before all of the R-rated discussions begin.
 

wilson

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Hi kisame it really is quite simple when you think about it. Science shows that cats are obligate carnivores, so their main diet should be meat (protein).

Only 3% is in the form of carbohydrates. This applies to our domestic house cats too, their systems have not changed.

If someone tries to tell you different then they really need to educate themselves.
 

ldg

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Yesterday I got a long lecture from my vet who disapproves of my food choice for my kitties. I feed 50/50 Blue Buffalo normal variety with Blue Buffalo Wilderness and wet food daily. I didn't just randomly pick something, I read quite a bit before deciding on this. I have 4 cats from almost 2 months- 7years currently.

My vet STRONGLY suggested I switch to Hill's Science Diet....

I am REALLY sorry to hear this. :( Is this because he's recommending a prescription food for some reason? My experience with vets as re: overall diet has been mostly supportive of decisions I make. When the boys blocked, prescription c/d was recommended. But when I wanted to move them off of that, the vet wasn't against it. I'm sorry your vet seems to be so closed minded - and so poorly aware of a cat's dietary needs.



...Mostly I would always prefer to have sources backed up by partial outside information. And for the most part I am having a very hard time finding this. I know it is difficult in the pet world because alot of the people doing studies and collecting information have their own reasons to protect. But the entire process has me feeling lost and confused and worrying because I want the best for my babies.
I don't know if this is the kind of help you're looking for, but I'll give it a shot. :)

I don't know if you've seen this site. The information in it is not cited to studies or anything, but it is written by a vet based on her clinical experience: http://www.catinfo.org

As to cat nutrition, pet food, and ingredients.... personally, and I've written this a lot recently, but I wish someone had challenged me years ago to think about what it means that a cat is an obligate carnivore. Emily posted some information about this. But this is something that doesn't require "scientific evidence," it's something that only requires some common sense. People don't put up fences around their gardens to protect their carrots, peas, and corn from cats. :lol3:

In that vein, there are several papers that you may find of interest (if you haven't seen them yet). One was written by a Harvard grad student. It's more about how thing have gotten to where they are in the Pet Food Industry, but it helps unravel the labeling and the ingredients: http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html The title is telling: "Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade: Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes."

And one of the sources of information you may find helpful is near and dear to my heart. It is the science that supports Wilson's statement - a study of feral cat diets. More precisely, it is an analysis of the studies done on feral cat diets. Only the abstract is available online, but if you want the full study, just PM me with your email address, and I'll be happy to send it to you. But basically, studies from around the world were culled down to those with appropriate data (feral cats, not Wild cats), with a minimum required number of data points, and where less than 5% of the diet was food scraps. The requirements for inclusion resulted in 27 eligible studies with 6,666 data points. So this study analyzes the natural diet of a cat.

"The results show that feral cats are obligatory carnivores, with their daily energy intake from crude protein being 52 %, from crude fat 46% and from N-free extract only 2%. Minerals and trace elements are consumed in relatively high concentrations compared with recommended allowances determined using empirical methods. The calculated nutrient profile may be considered the nutrient intake to which the cat’s metabolic system has adapted."

"N-free extract" (NFE) means (basically) starch+carbohydrates. (It's discussed in the study).

On a dry matter basis, the diet was 62.7% protein, 22.8% fat, 11.8% ash (minerals), and 2.8% carbs+starches.

In the discussion, the authors write, "As expected, the results of the present study clearly show that feral cats are true carnivores, with the daily energy intake of feral cats from protein being 52 %, from fat 46% and from NFE only 2%. Interestingly, a recent study by Hewson-Hughes et al.(49) on voluntary macronutrient selection by adult domestic cats showed that when given the choice, adult cats select an intake target of about 420 kJ/d
from protein, about 280 kJ/d from fat and about 100 kJ/d from carbohydrate, representing 52% of daily energy intake from protein, 36% from fat and 12% from carbohydrate. These results are highly similar to the data presented here, indicating that cats appear to have developed, in addition to
the above-mentioned metabolic adaptations, sensitive metabolic regulation mechanisms to consume an overall dietary macronutrient profile close to their evolutionary diet....

"As described above, the cat’s metabolism has adapted to a carnivorous lifestyle with many of the known adaptations relating to the protein, carbohydrate and vitamin component of the diet. Almost all the metabolic adaptations related to the carbohydrate component of the diet indicate the lack of this nutrient in the evolutionary diet. It could be argued that the shift from an obligatory meat-based natural diet to a meat-based and grain-based pet food rich in carbohydrates may place the cat’s metabolism under stress, and might have unwanted negative health effects in the long run....

"Based on the above calculations, it can be concluded that the NFE content reported in the present study contains little starch and as such is composed of other fibrous material. Twenty-one of the twenty-seven studies reported small amounts of plant material being found in the scats, stomach and gut content of feral cats. Molsher et al.(59) reported that cats frequently consume vegetation (FO of 26·3 %) consisting mostly of a few strands of grass. The authors concluded, however, that plant material is a minor component of the diet of feral cats, as ingestion is likely to occur incidentally while foraging for invertebrates."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434

Plantinga et al. 2011. Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats, Br J Nutr. 2011 Oct;106 Suppl 1:S35-48.


Thus it seems to me, that when looking for a cat food, one wants to look to feed the carnivore in their kitty: a food that has limited ingredients, is high in protein and fat, and has little or no vegetables, grains or carbohydrates - in the form of a moist food (given they're descended from desert animals and as such, have a low thirst-drive).

Hope this helps. :)
 
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just mike

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Yesterday I got a long lecture from my vet who disapproves of my food choice for my kitties. I feed 50/50 Blue Buffalo normal variety with Blue Buffalo Wilderness and wet food daily. I didn't just randomly pick something, I read quite a bit before deciding on this. I have 4 cats from almost 2 months- 7years currently.

My vet STRONGLY suggested I switch to Hill's Science Diet....

My issue is that there is just so much info out there and it is really difficult to get a hold on what is true vs what is lies, half truths or exaggeration, opinion and scare tactics.


And that is with people. It can be so difficult to get a hold of what is right and what is wrong when you are trying to figure it all out and in the end you pretty much have to just have faith and choose one that makes sense to you. And that is fine when it is me but when it comes to my pets it leaves me in a state of worry that perhaps I am wrong...

When it comes to pet food it is pretty much the same. The food companies even many of the good ones have their top priority in profit and not actually what is best for pets. They can bend the truth so much and confuse us. They can add stuff that is harmful and things not even right for that type of animal.

Yet on the flip side you have alot of opinions from consumers too. And some make rational good points but you wonder are they just repeating things they heard? is there any truth to it or is atleast some of it fears/rumors just being repeated again and again with not any actual proof to back it up either? How much of it is truth and how much is the same thing the pet food companies do with using the good sounding words to make us agree with them? Pet people are super passionate about their pets and can be very strong minded and opinionated about what is best. There is nothing wrong with that & i gladly count myself into that group. Though that being the case sometimes it can lead to open honest discussions being shut down and people being made to feel they are bad pet parents.


Part of this was inspired from me doing alot of research into my rats food. Atleast with cats you have some good options at your local store, they may not be everyone's ideal but there are good options. Sadly almost no pet store actually sells good rat food. Almost every type of rat food on the shelves isn't even something that should be made for rats nutritional needs! It really opened my eyes to how evil the pet food companies are for one. And it leaves so many rat owners just confused on diet that it is pretty much the #1 issue people ask about lol. And it splits rat owners into different categories just as it does with people's nutrition like I mentioned above. This can lead to some debates that can get heated lol

I do believe that there are pet parents who are smart and have done all the research themselves and understand it and how to take that information and turn it into a smart diet. I also believe that the number of people who can & do, do that is not that high. That the majority of people just repeat what they are told because it sounds good to them. The question being how do you sort through it all to find out who is even close to being right. For example and I mean this with zero offense, this forum seems to be highly in support of raw food diet. I have been on alot of cat forums where this is not the case at all. I am not saying one is right and one is not at all, I am just pointing out that there are different groups of people who view it differently.


Anyways I tend to ramble sorry. My point is that I have read and read and read until my mind spins with so much information it is hard to keep it all straight. I am not a vet nor a scientist or even probably all that smart lmao! But I never just take information handed to me blindly, I want to know how, what, where it came from. Anyone can make a fact page and fill it with pretty shiny words that sound great to me but that doesn't mean any of it is actually true or backed up by anything more then opinion. Even if there was a study there is probably another study saying the exact opposite.

Mostly I would always prefer to have sources backed up by partial outside information. And for the most part I am having a very hard time finding this. I know it is difficult in the pet world because alot of the people doing studies and collecting information have their own reasons to protect. But the entire process has me feeling lost and confused and worrying because I want the best for my babies.

It is just so frustraiting and annoying. Mostly this is just a rant on my vet. I have an appointment with a different vet on monday so perhaps I will like that one better. I hope I didn't offend anyone, that was not my intent. I am very much not saying anyone is right or wrong in their choices, just that there are alot of different opinions & I get so frustraited trying to find real answers about any of it that I feel I can trust.

 
WOW!  That your vet would say that to you boggles!  Really sorry the vet confused you like that.  I'm with the pet food industry but first and foremost my concern is for my cats, dogs and horse.  There is a ton of information to try and absorb out there.  Some good, some not.  You'll get good information from some of the people responding to your post.  You sound like you are on the right track by doing some research AND finding a different vet.   I don't go into the forums to sell anything but if you want to check out the Nutro feline lines they can be found here http://www.nutro.com/natural-cat-food.aspx    I will not bet into the pros and cons of brands on this, or any other forum.  There are a lot of good brands out there and some not so.  What it will boil down to is you doing your research, asking a lot of questions and making an educated decision you feel is right for you and your cat, and within the budget you want to be in.  My very best to you! 
 
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