Can anyone help me?

My 8 year old female is going through another incidence of struvite crystals.  She had two rice sized stones removed from her bladder two years ago.  Misdiagnosed by the vet "as a nervous cat" for four years and treated with amytriptaline until she collapsed one day.  Emergency vet took a strip off me for not taking care of her?  So, had the surgery and a very painful recovery.  Miss Mimi was a "crunchie" only eater, took me six months to get her to eat wet food, finally thought I had found the solution as she seems to really like the weruva (mostly fish) wet food.  She gets a miniscule amount of Origen crunchies (20 or so twice a day) but will willingly eat the wet food first.  The new vet tells me that she has to eat SD or Hills.  I tried them after the surgery and she absolutely refused both (besides which I think they stink like chemicals).  She is now not eating at all.  Today we go back to the vet for hydration, force feeding and an appetite stimulant.  Does anyone have any suggestion as to a suitable food/stimulant to get her to eat.  I have tried everything, I hand feed her, I talk to her, I sit with her while she eats.  I am at the point where I am wondering if I have done the right thing, perhaps I should have let her go instead of all the surgery and food/medication interventions, this can't be much of a life - I spend all of my time trying to coax her to eat and the rest of the time crying.  Any information would be helpful at this point.

catdancing1 said:

My 8 year old female is going through another incidence of struvite crystals. She had two rice sized stones removed from her bladder two years ago. Misdiagnosed by the vet "as a nervous cat" for four years and treated with amytriptaline until she collapsed one day. Emergency vet took a strip off me for not taking care of her?  So, had the surgery and a very painful recovery. Miss Mimi was a "crunchie" only eater, took me six months to get her to eat wet food, finally thought I had found the solution as she seems to really like the Weruva (mostly fish) wet food. She gets a miniscule amount of Orijen crunchies (20 or so twice a day) but will willingly eat the wet food first. The new vet tells me that she has to eat SD or Hill's. I tried them after the surgery and she absolutely refused both (besides which I think they stink like chemicals). She is now not eating at all. Today we go back to the vet for hydration, force feeding and an appetite stimulant. Does anyone have any suggestion as to a suitable food/stimulant to get her to eat? I have tried everything, I hand feed her, I talk to her, I sit with her while she eats. I am at the point where I am wondering if I have done the right thing; perhaps I should have let her go instead of all the surgery and food/medication interventions, this can't be much of a life - I spend all of my time trying to coax her to eat and the rest of the time crying. Any information would be helpful at this point.

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First of all, welcome to TCS!   You found a good place to get some help with your situation as many of us care about everyone's cats.

Thank you for providing a lot of details. More information = more assistance.

I totally understand how this situation can be very upsetting. We all have times when our decisions are second-guessed while cats suffer and, in severe cases, die, regardless of what the problem was. Other people are certainly going to have different ideas, but that does not make me or anyone else right or wrong about everything. It just means you have multiple options to consider and there may not be one perfect solution.

The first thing you need to know is you are doing the right thing because euthanasia at this point would be giving up on her. Many people can, no matter how long it takes or difficult it is, get their cats to eat and feel better again. There are many ways to do this, depending on what your cat likes and hates. What I am seeing here is a cat who prefers kibbles (nobody uses the word crunchies here) to wet food. Many cats are like that and you should not feel guilty about feeding kibbles if that is alll Miss Mimi will eat.

The reason Science Diet smells like chemicals is it is chemicals - toxic ones, in fact - with a little bit of meat. There are several long threads to read later about this, but for now, pat yourself on the back for not feeding SD against your vet's advice. (Hill's makes SD so they are the same thing.) I don't know anything about Orijen, but some other members feed it to their cats.

About wet food: IMO you can't do better than Weruva Nine Liver, which is white chicken breast. Weruva is 80% water and only uses the same part of the bird we eat - no skin, bones, feathers, heads, or feet. Not only that, they never use chickens that are illegal to use in human foods - the dead, dying, diseased, and disabled chickens. So, you'll know Miss Mimi is getting high-quality protein from real poultry and lots of water if she eats Weruva Nine Liver or Paw Lickin' Chicken. Although some fish as a treat is OK, it should not be eaten frequently as a meal. Chicken is much better for that because it has no ethoxiquin (which is not always listed on the label) or mercury. The reason I don't recommend others with chicken is they contain vegetables, which serve no purpose to an obligate carnivore. Other members say their cats love Weruva (or did if they were switched to raw later). However, Weruva has so few calories it is ideal for an overweight cat, so you need to use it in rotation with a higher calorie wet food if Miss Mimi is not too heavy.

Many if not most TCS members know wet food is better than dry. Some people say there are exceptions. I disagree. If Mimi will eat wet foods there is no reason to keep feeding her dry foods. She needs to only eat wet foods because struvite crystals are caused by dehydration, so the additional water in a wet food helps cats that have them. If you must give her crunchy food to make her eat Weruva chicken, you can mix that in the wet food as an appetite stimulant. She should eventually eat the Weruva without the dry Orijen. If that does not work, it is because Mimi has no appetite, since you know she likes Weruva. I hope this helps.

Oh I'm so sorry. A few questions first?

Was she eating the wet food before the surgery? When was the surgery? Did she eat anything after the surgery, or have you been battling this inappetance since then?

Has she had blood work done recently? It sounds like she has fatty liver - or is at risk for it now. The good news there is that usually it is very treatable, and the treatment is simply food. Normally this is done with assist feeding via syringe - you can do this at home. When we had to "force feed" Lazlo, we used the Hill's a/d - which works very well in the syringe - and these syringes: MUCH, much easier to use than the syringes the vet gives you. You'd need to feed her the amount of food she needs a day. I fed Lazlo one can of a/d a day (he weighed about 10 pounds).

Do keep offering her food, and after a bit, she'll likely start eating on her own. :heart3:

When feeding a kitty with a tendency to create struvite crystals, basically you need to feed a low phosphorus diet, and keep the pH acidic. I don't have the number handy, but there is a member with extensive experience with this. I'll PM her to alert her to this thread.

Vibes for you and your baby!

Laurie, why are Amazon syringes better than the ones Lazlo's vet gave you?

EmilyMayWilcha said:

Laurie, why are Amazon syringes better than the ones Lazlo's vet gave you?

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Because of the shape. And they don't have rubber plungers (the rubber tends to get sticky after a few uses).

The Weruva is a good food, but stay away from fish (because most fish foods leave the bones in, too high in minerals) and absolutely stop the Orijen kibble. Orijen is full of fish and ANY kibble is going to be bad for her.

My struvite kitty is eating By Nature Organic turkey&chicken, and Chicken&liver. The phos/magnesium percentages, if I can believe the manufacturer, are very close to what the prescription c/d lists.

Mazy was on the c/d kibble for 6 1/2 years. It controlled her urine pH and struvite formation, but has ruined her digestion. Though she loves canned food, she would not eat the Hills c/d canned and I couldn't stand to have her regurgitating that kibble junk every day any more.

If Mazy would eat the Weruva, I'd be adding that to her rotation, but she won't eat it. If you are open to commercial raw, Rad Cat Lamb has a low phos/magnesium percentage, and can be added to a rotation. I am hoping to try Mazy on it, access is a problem for me.

Let us know how your girl made out at the vet.

Thanks otto.

Catdancing1, otto put a LOT of research into finding the right food for her Mazy so she could take her off the prescription stuff. :heart2: She avoids problem ingredients (like carrageenan, which can be very irritating to the stomach), yet identified foods with the right mineral composition. :nod:

Now - because you're feeding the fishy foods, and it seems that's all your baby wanted to eat, and fishy foods are typically too high in minerals for a kitty with struvite crystal problems, in order to entice her to eat the canned foods she should be eating (Weruva chicken, for instance, not fish - or the foods otto listed), you may need to use a "topper" to entice her to eat it at first. Long term you don't want the fish addiction, but to entice her to eat, you may want to consider things like Bonito Flakes crushed on top of her food, or freeze-dried shrimp or salmon. These can be crushed into a fine powder that you sprinkle on top of the canned food. :nod: It will provide very little actual fish - but alter the smell enough that it may help her to dig into her food.

Of course, if her body has already gone into the process of hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver), you'll have to syringe feed her until her appetite comes back. :rub: :rub: :rub:


Emily -

Willowy said:

Because of the shape. And they don't have rubber plungers (the rubber tends to get sticky after a few uses).

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That. This is what a feeding syringe from the vet looks like: http://www.petcarerx.com/catalog/pr...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=COmyoNi-t7ECFYFo4Aod7WwAlw

Those rubber plungers are horrible, and the syringe tips are just too short.

 I agree with LDG's advice. Bonito flakes are sold on Amazon under the name Kitty Kaviar.

EmilyMayWilcha said:

 I agree with LDG's advice. Bonito flakes are sold on Amazon under the name Kitty Kaviar.

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Or purchased at any asian market or even just about any supermarket in the "International" section under the name... Bonito flakes. :lol3: (And for a lot less).

Thank you for all the information.  Mimi has had a very long history of bladder issues.  She is also the most fussiest fur diva on the planet.  She will not eat chicken, shrimp, fish, cheese, ham or anything that all my other cats would beg for.  She was left outside a shelter when she was 4 months old in a box, she was dying, upper respiratory infection and I don't know what else.  Anyway, I syringe fed her for 8 weeks, antibiotics for two months, then the bladder infections started, every three months back at the vets which then resulted in the amitriptlyne prescription until she finally collapsed four years later.  The wet food has been a battle all the way.  The dry food (Origen) comes in two formulations, she gets the chicken/lamb one - not the fish.  After trying every wet food on the market I realized she didn't like pate, or shredded chicken or etc. etc.  Weruva has been the lifesaver, today she still won't eat, so syringed in some watered down food, on the plus side she was really pissed off and got under the chair and wouldn't speak to me, so I think she is feeling somewhat better.  I will go find some of the weruva liver flavour and try that out.  In the meantime the vet suggested to continue feeding her what she will eat with some of the CD mixed in to help lower the PH.  Did I mention we even tried raw - as you know all cats can look at you with disdain, Mimi has it perfected to a fine art, she picked up a blob of the raw mix and deposited dead centre on my pillow and didn't speak to me for days - message received.  I apolagize for sounding like  drama queen, but sometimes you are just not sure if you are doing the right thing.  The new vet does not think that putting her to sleep is a solution so it was nice to have some validation.  Will keep you posted on how the next couple of days go!

Dancing, you are not a drama queen - Mimi is LOL. I hope you don't have to feed the Hill's C/D and Orijen much longer because they are junk foods only good for making sick cats eat.

The chicken Orijen also contains fish, and a lot of other ingredients obligate carnivores do not need.

Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, fresh chicken liver*, herring meal, russet potato, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless walleye*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, fresh boneless herring*, organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

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http://orijen.ca/products/cat_kitten/ingredients

The minimum phosphurous on a dry matter basis is 1.3 %. this is too high for a cat who is prone to struvite crystals. The Hils c/d is 0.65

The minimum magnesium for the orijen is .1, Hills c/d is .09, so not much difference there.

However Orijen is only 10 % moisture.

The Orijen is just not a good food for a cat forming struvite crystals. NO dry is really.

I chose the By Nature Organics because the phosphurous levels are close to the same numbers in the c/d and it does not contain carrageenan, fish or any grains, fruits or vegetables. And..Mazy will eat it. It was very challenging finding a food she would eat that was okay for her.

The phosphurous (on a dry matter basis) is .68 but the magnesium is a bit on the higher side, at .18, hmm somehow I overlooked that before. Hmmm..... Well that is why I am hoping to add the Rad Cat Lamb frozen raw. I just don't want to rely on ANY one single commercial food. Rad Cat Lamb is .79 phos/.08 mag

The Weruva nine livers is .77 phos and mag is .12

I don't know which fish Weruva you are feeding but they are all about the same 1.25 for phosphurous and 1.5 magnesium

To find the dry matter percentage on any food:

Find the moisture content of the food. Orijen is 10 %, which means it is 90% dry.

Divide the percentage of the value you are trying to check by the dry percentage.

Example:

Orijen lists their phosphurous as 1.2 %
1.2 % = .012

Divide .012 by 90

you get 1.3 % on a dry matter basis.


If this is confusing, don't hesitate to ask for clarification.

PS my vet and I have also discussed using a urine acidifier. I have not felt that Mazy cat needs to go that route yet. But it's something you may want to discuss with your vet.

Is this food available in Canada?

I did alot of research after the surgery, apparently still have a ways to go.  Will try to source the By Nature and see if I can get it somewhere in my area.  Any other suggestions would be appreciated, am also going to try the Innova/Evo wet and see if that might appeal to her.  She truly eats a minimal amount of hard food, more like a treat than for calories.  She is not overweight so will be mindful about eating mostly chicken as well (assuming the little hag will go for it without me putting her in a headlock!)  Honestly, I don't understand how a not feeling well 8 pound furball can suddenly develop ninety-two legs and the strength of 10 grinches!

catdancing1 said:

Is this food available in Canada?

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Is what food available in Canada?

Kittylover23, who lives in Ontario, used to feed Weruva to her cats. So I know it is available there.

catdancing1 said:

Honestly, I don't understand how a not feeling well 8 pound furball can suddenly develop ninety-two legs and the strength of 10 grinches!

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Truer words were never spoken! :lol3:

This is something you can probably order from amazon (US) and have shipped to Canada:
All the zippers can be zipped - it makes syringe feeding a LOT easier when a cat has 92 legs!!!!!

Well after thinking I got the pill down, up it came, then there was the frothing of the mouth and my trying to catch her to spritz a little water in and all the attached hysteria.  Packed up the Diva took her back to the vet for an overnight stay and hydration, a vitamin shot, antibiotics and some force feeding if she doesn't start eating.  Hopefully today she is feeling much better and is ready to come home.  I am exhausted!

Thanks will have a look at that.