All about probiotics

I was complaining about the terminology. They don't say what Saccharomyces cerevisiae or gnotobiotic mice with Salmonella Typhimurium are. How am I supposed to know anything if I don't have common names for saccharamyces cereviliae and salmonella typhimuium are? What in the world is a gnotobiotic mouse?

EmilyMayWilcha said:

I was complaining about the terminology. They don't say what Saccharomyces cerevisiae or gnotobiotic mice with Salmonella Typhimurium are. How am I supposed to know anything if I don't have common names for saccharamyces cereviliae and salmonella typhimuium are? What in the world is a gnotobiotic mouse?

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salmonella typhimuium = Salmonella
Saccharomyces cerevisiae = a type of yeast, also used as a probiotic
gnotobiotic mice = a mouse that lives in a controlled environment, free from other organisms - used specifically for studies. On this case, this mice was infected with Salmonella.

Does that help?

Carolina said:

Ok.... So it has no effects against pneumonia..... That doesn't make it a bad probiotic though.... Right? :lol3:

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No, that was a general discussion of the studies with E. faecium SF68, and the only study in cats showed no impact other than elevation of CD4 or whatever. In pigs it had a negative effect on the immune system, in lab mice it helped fight salomenella.

Yes, I read the abstract. I'm not yet "sold." :lol3:

My concern, stated another way, is that given other strains of E. faecium are pathogenic and are multi-drug resistant, and have been documented to cause UTIs and kidney failure resulting in death in cats, and given the E. faecium strain is described as "opportunistic," and not always beneficial, and the study conducted in cats showed no impact on immune response, is it worth having it in a probiotic unless you're sure it's specifically SF68?

I definitely need to spend more time on this. For now, I'm not convinced....

LDG said:

No, that was a general discussion of the studies with E. faecium SF68, and the only study in cats showed no impact other than elevation of CD4 or whatever. In pigs it had a negative effect on the immune system, in lab mice it helped fight salomenella.
Yes, I read the abstract. I'm not yet "sold."
My concern, stated another way, is that given other strains of E. faecium are pathogenic and are multi-drug resistant, and have been documented to cause UTIs and kidney failure resulting in death in cats, and given the E. faecium strain is described as "opportunistic," and not always beneficial, and the study conducted in cats showed no impact on immune response, is it worth having it in a probiotic unless you're sure it's specifically SF68?
I definitely need to spend more time on this. For now, I'm not convinced....

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Does the manufacturer's website say if it is SF68? If not, send the company an email or call them to find out.

To be on the safe side, I will look for something else to be Patricia's probiotic.

LDG said:

No, that was a general discussion of the studies with E. faecium SF68, and the only study in cats showed no impact other than elevation of CD4 or whatever. In pigs it had a negative effect on the immune system, in lab mice it helped fight salomenella.
Yes, I read the abstract. I'm not yet "sold." :lol3:
My concern, stated another way, is that given other strains of E. faecium are pathogenic and are multi-drug resistant, and have been documented to cause UTIs and kidney failure resulting in death in cats, and given the E. faecium strain is described as "opportunistic," and not always beneficial, and the study conducted in cats showed no impact on immune response, is it worth having it in a probiotic unless you're sure it's specifically SF68?
I definitely need to spend more time on this. For now, I'm not convinced....

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Ok....I am not convinced otherwise either, based on the studies I read.....
BTW - on the article you posted, about the UT infections, and the confirmed Kidney failure:

There is more risk of infections from these nasty organisms added to the food than any true benefit. I personally would avoid any food containing one of the following modifiers: "Natural", "Organic" or "Holistic". In most cases these food contain Enterococcus and other bacteria. Food left out containing live bacteria will promote rapid growth. The pet eats the food with high populations of these bacteria, then afterward clean themselves and probably inoculate the urinary tract. I have had several cases of Enterococcal urinary tract infection and one confirmed case of kidney failure in a young cat who ate these foods.http://www.911vets.com/index.php?path=news&nid=12

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They are not talking about it use as a probiotic/supplemented - they are talking about when added to the food - as in kibbles, for example. And that to me, sounds like speculation.... At least the way it is written :dk:
Anyways, you are a master on finding studies - I am sure you will find.... But I wanted to note this in here.

One more Study..... In piglets showing anti-inflammatory and immune-stimulatory benefits.... http://pvj.com.pk/pdf-files/32_1/81-84.pdf
(Effect of Orally Administered Enterococcus faecium EF1 on Intestinal Cytokines and Chemokines Production of Suckling Piglets)

Anyways...... GTG to bed! :lol3:

I am wondering how relevant studies in piglets and puppies are for determining the safety of kittens.

OK. I can see that probiotics are going to be an even bigger headache than the omega 3 issue. :lol3:

I found a paper summarizing the issue with E. faecium: http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/consultationsclosed/call/120222.pdf

Basically, there are safe strains and not safe strains.

BUT... the lines blurs, because the E. faecium SF68 (NCIMB 10415) has been shown to be a recipient of the VanA gene cluster (the vancomycin-resistant problem): http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/9/1384.full

The article that indicates E. faecium NCIMB 10415 is E. faecium SF68: http://www.horizonpress.com/ciim/v/v8/01.pdf

Now... E. faecium SF68 is one of two approved strains of probiotics for use in animal feed in the EU: http://www.kyronlabs.co.za/downloads/2009_Mar_Probiotics lr.pdf

BUT... ( :lol3: ) More conflicting studies.

E. faecium SF68 shows no effect on Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium in pigs in this study: http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2012/04/20/AEM.00395-12.abstract

But does show efficacy against Giardia in mice in this study: http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/135/5/1171.full

What does all of this mean?

:dk:

What I THINK it means is that E. faecium SF68 is understood to be safe, but it CAN become multi-drug resistant, and if antibiotics are used for any reason, it colonizes opportunistically, becoming a source of problems, not benefit. :dk: (I'm skipping posting links to all the hospital studies of people sick from it).

It has been shown to be effective against salmonella and giardia in mice, but not in pigs. What that means for cats... is anyone's guess. :lol3:

So what this got me wondering is... even though it's shown these benefits, do we need it? Have any strains of Bifidus or Lactobaccilii been shown to be effective against salmonella or giardia?

I'm not done searching yet, but found that acidophilus is effective against salmonella: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6419279/

And from 2011: "Lactobacillus acidophilus decreases Salmonella typhimurim invasion in vivo" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-4565.2011.00299.x/abstract

Still working on this....

LDG

E. faecium SF68 shows no effect on Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium in pigs in this study: http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2012/04/20/AEM.00395-12.abstract

But does show efficacy against Giardia in mice in this study: http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/135/5/1171.full

What does all of this mean?

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Looks to me like it means different species react different ways to SF68. You need to include the word cats or kittens in your search.

I feed my kitties an acidophilus and bifidus probiotic supplement daily (as recommended by Laurie).

kittylover23 said:

I feed my kitties an acidophilus and bifidus probiotic supplement daily (as recommended by Laurie).

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Which one do you feed?  Also, what's the dose for a cat?

EmilyMayWilcha said:

Looks to me like it means different species react different ways to SF68. You need to include the word cats or kittens in your search.

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Well, the Purina study(ies) obviously indicate it's beneficial. The question is - is it safe? This, I'm pretty sure, isn't a species-specific question. :dk:

Here's the Purina piece: http://www.purinavets.eu/uk/no-messing/PDFs/related_articles/PVD_2.13.8_FF_KOL_Newsletter.pdf

What it says is "SF68 does not carry any required resistance to antibiotics and is unlikely to transfer antibiotic resistance."

Here is a summary of E. faecium studies in cats (sponsored by Nestle Purina): http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=717423&sk=&date=&pageID=2 There are a lot of "not statistically siginficant" comments in there, but definitely seems to be more effective in cats potentially for various things than dogs.

Here is the European Food Safety Authority's paper as re: safety of Cylactin (E. faecium SF68 / E. faecium NCIMB 10415): http://www.efsa.europa.eu/it/scdocs/doc/138.pdf

A long term feeding of E. faecium NCIB 10415 did not favour the growth and shedding of haemolytic and non-haemolytic E. coli in dogs and cats. Furthermore, long term feeding of E. faecium NCIB 10415 in cats had no effect on the presence of clostridial enterotoxins in faecal samples. However, the data provided did not make it possible to conclude on potential effects of E. faecium NCIB 10415 on the shedding of Campylobacter and Salmonella.

The presence of virulence factors was previously investigated and the then known determinants shown to be absent. E. faecium NCIB 10415 has now been shown free of additional genes involved in cytolysin production, in the regulation of gelatinase expression and in the production of an enterococcal surface protein.

Although FEEDAP Panel considers it likely that Cylactin[emoji]174[/emoji] (Enterococcus faecium NCIB 10415) is safe for the target species dogs and cats, the short duration of the tolerance study introduces a degree of uncertainty. In addition, the safety of the owner exposed to bacteria carried by these companion animals could only be partly established.

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But since it's approved in the EU, they must have decided it's safe. :lol3:



BUT.... (of course :lol3: )

According "Prevalence, species distribution and antimicrobial resistance of enterococci isolated from dogs and cats in the United States," Journal of Applied Microbiology. 107(4):1269-1278 http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=230980

The contribution of dogs and cats as reservoirs of antimicrobial resistant enterococci remains largely undefined. This is increasingly important considering the possibility of transfer of bacteria from companion animals to the human host. In this study, dogs and cats from veterinary clinics were screened for the presence of enterococci. A total of 420 enterococci were isolated from nasal, teeth, rectal, belly and hindquarter sites of 155 dogs and 121 cats. Eighty percent of dogs and 60% of cats were positive for enterococci. The majority of positive samples were from the rectal, hindquarter, and belly areas. Ten enterococcal species were identified; the predominant species identified was Enterococcus faecalis from dogs and E. hirae from cats. More isolates were resistant to ciprofloxacin in E. faecium, chloramphenicol resistance in E. faecalis and gentamicin resistance in E. faecalis from dogs. The majority of E. faecium from cats were resistant to nitrofurantoin. Multi-drug resistance (MDR) (resistance is greater than or equal to 2 antimicrobials) was observed to as few as two and as many as eight antimicrobials. Results from this study indicate that healthy dogs and cats are a source of antimicrobial resistant enterococci and may act as a reservoir of antimicrobial resistance genes that can be transferred to the human host. This research will be useful to policy makers and researchers studying the role that companion animals have in the dissemination and persistence of antimicrobial resistance in humans which may impact human health.

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And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3282945/ "In the USA, small animal veterinary hospitals (SAVHs) commonly keep resident cats living permanently as pets within their facilities. Previously, multi-drug resistant (MDR) enterococci were found as a contaminant of multiple surfaces within such veterinary hospitals, and nosocomial infections are a concern. The objectives of this study were to determine whether resident cats carry MDR enterococci and to compare the feline isolates genotypically to those obtained from SAVH surfaces in a previous study. Enterococcal strains (n=180) were isolated from the feces of six healthy resident cats from different SAVHs." A number of mutli-drug resistant enterococci were found in almost 50% of the cats. No mention of the vanA gene (the abiility to transfer the MDR).

Again... all these studies mean is that there's good E. faecium and bad E. faecium, and from the previous study, we know some of the bad E. faecium has the ability to transfer the multi-drug resistance thing to other strains of E. faecium.

It definitely seems to be species-specific how well it does or doesn't work for various things, and the conclusion of the Nestle-Purina review of the literature of E. faecium in cats is

Controlled studies evaluating the use of probiotics in cats is limited and inconclusive. However, there is evidence that SF68 is well tolerated and may have various clinical applications. Further research is ongoing in this area."

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(From the link above, in this post: http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=717423&sk=&date=&pageID=4 )

Well.... same kind of deal you hear all of the time about Salmonella and Toxo, isn't it? :dk: Now we are hearing about a probiotic.... :lol3:
Apparently there will be endless controversies on the subject, no matter how you look. There will be those on the opinion that one, two strains-probiotics are not enough and the best route to go - you need to give more. Then, there are those who thinks that one, two strain-probiotics will be the best route :dk:
I personally, don't know - All my cats always did very well on Proviable-DC, and I will continue to think it IS the best animal probiotic there is. I personally rather give a multi-strain then a duo, but that's me. I am not sold faecium is a bad probiotic either....
I have a duo here at home, and I will try, as Proviable-DC has gone up in price and was unavailable for a little while, so I got it anyways - will try and compare.... will see how they react to it.
I think this discussion is one of those that will have as many pros as cons though..... You kind of need to throw a coin a pick a side :lol3:

Carolina said:

I think this discussion is one of those that will have as many pros as cons though..... You kind of need to throw a coin a pick a side :lol3:

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Like I said - this subject is migraine-proportioned compared to the headaches of learning about omegas. :lol3:

The one thing I don't like about Proviable-DC is that everything in it is a fermentation product (meaning not live cultures). The probiotic I give only has lactobacillus rhamnosus, Lactobacillus acidophilus, and B. Bifidus. But from everything I've read, having some healthy probiotics helps promote the growth of other healthy gut bacteria... so I'm comfortable with this. Like the holistic vet says - don't "fix" it if it ain't broke. :lol3:

Does it really matter? Just use a different probiotic if you don't know what type of EF it is. I also am interested in these studies even if they are fatally flawed, but would rather go look for something else than waste time trying to figure out if I can use something with the word enterococcus on the label.

Is it safe to feed them both? I have a paste here containing E.faecium (SF68, hopefully) that I give to him daily to help firm up his stools, but is it also okay to feed this alongside an Acidophilus and Bifidus probiotic?

Yes, it is.

Here are the ingredients in one of the pet probiotics mentioned in this thread (they're all fermentation products, so not live, but the point is they are combined into one probiotic): http://www.drugs.com/vet/proviable-dc-capsules.html

And this product (marketed by a well-known care facility for both humans and animals here in the U.S.) combines quite a few strains (not the same ones discussed in this thread for the most part, but you'll see/hear the discussion) makes it pretty clear it's OK to combine many different strains: http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

The bottom line is that all of these bacteria are in the gut and work together. It's just a question of which ones we use to help keep the "good" colonies well stocked to help prevent the bad colonies.

That's great to know Laurie! Is it possible for a cat to get overdosed on probiotics though? I am currently looking into getting this from a UK seller (admittedly more expensive though), but they sell the 5 million version more commonly than than the 10 million one, would the 5 million suffice?
 

Given you're already using another probiotic, I'm sure that would be fine. :nod: The 10 billion CFU was a recommendation from my holistic vet, and we were giving it to our kitty (on her recommendation) 2x a day - he had an issue with chronic diarrhea at the time (among other things). Other vets provide other recommendations. Most pet probiotics have 4 billion CFU - 5 billion CFU, but don't have live cultures in them, and they often see benefit from them. So I'm pretty sure the 5 billion CFU will do just fine. :nod:

BTW, you don't necessarily need THAT particular brand. There must be health food stores there. Just ask for a good acidophilus and/or bifidus supplement, 5 or 10 billion active CFU (colony forming units). You might be able to find something local that works just as well.

(When we started on the probiotics, the holistic D.V.M. just said, "Find a good human acidophilus probiotic with a minimum of 10 billion live CFU." :lol3: ). It's a combo of acidophilus+bifidus, the two most common in human supplements (and the two with the most research already done).

Although this study was done with dry food, it indicates that a high protein diet doesn't help promote the growth of healthy gut flora. http://www.petfoodindustry.com/47209.html This makes sense, because fiber is what typically provides the medium for that to happen - and a high proten/low carb diet (like a raw diet, for instance) doesn't provide much fiber - so no substrate to provide the growth medium for the friendly gut bacteria. In the wild, cats eat the guts of the mice, so get a dose of probiotics every time they eat a mouse (or any animal if they consume the entire thing). So if feeding a high protein diet, providing a probiotic can be important. I don't know that anyone yet knows the best strains or the proper amount. :dk: For example: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cmm/2008/00000008/00000004/art00006 But at least we know the good bacteria outcompete the bad bacteria if we provide them.

I somehow missed this thread.

I give my Kitties the same one I take: "Source Naturals, Life Flora" which contains:

Life Flora Mix (approx. 3,000,000,000 viable cells at the time of encapsulation)
Containing: Bifidobacterium lactis, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus paracasei subspecies paracasei, and Streptococcus thermophilus.

This should be fine, correct?