Just an observation

p3 and the king · Jul 5, 2012

I just wanted to comment that all those out there telling people that have already gotten kittens too young that the point "A kitten shouldn't leave it's mother before 12 weeks" is moot. It's already happened and a lot of people and shelters out there don't wait that long. So I think, instead of stating a moot point that makes us look like somewhat condescending jerks, just to advise on the problem at hand and leave that out... It's done. It's not going to change. It's not like they are going to take the kitten back to it's mom!!

mrblanche · Jul 5, 2012

A lot of the advice you'll find here is of the "too little, too late" variety. Like most advice in the world, I'd have to say.

We adopt out kittens at the shelter virtually as soon as they can eat solid food. I actively try to discourage people from taking home the smallest ones, but there's only so much you can do. AND I try to tell them that two kittens are a whole lot less trouble than one!

On the other hand, if they stay in the shelter, they are prone to catching the URI that can kill them, so you do what you can...

missymotus · Jul 5, 2012

But how will people know its wrong if they're not told?

So many behaviour issues stem from kittens leaving too young, many countries have laws on minimum ages too. 6 weeks for instance, is so cruel to the kitten and against the law here.

p3 and the king · Jul 5, 2012

I understand that, and I say it too. But, when it's on every post several times, that's enough. We just look like jerks to them, I'm sure. It is not illegal here in the US. It should be. But it's not. And it is not going to change anything, it's very too little, too late. I agree that behavior issues do stem from it but a moot point isn't helping and a lot of people are probably very turned off from the site by it... I'm just saying in a lot of situations we could do better and better serve kitties to just stick to the issue at hand and help with that rather than saying "You're a bad pet person because you took it from it's mom too soon!" Of course we don't say it like that but that is how it comes across to many, I am certain.

Willowy · Jul 5, 2012

I think it may help people understand their kittens behavior, though. If they think that separating a kitten from his mother and littermates at a young age is normal or even desirable, they may expect their kitten to act "normal". If they know that age is really to young to even be away from Mamacat, maybe they'll be more patient with the kitty and understand that they can't expect certain behaviors for a while, and they need to be the mamacat for a few weeks. That's my hope, anyway.

Some shelters have foster homes to keep the kittens until 8-10 weeks. But not all. And of course they have to get them out of the shelter fast. . .but that doesn't mean it's good for the kittens. And it is illegal in some places in the U.S. to separate a puppy or kitten from its mother before a certain age (usually 7 or 8 weeks), but it's usually a local ordinance and not well enforced.

iris · Jul 5, 2012

I am a cat lover..and now a cat trapper..TNR person. A stray cat showed up and delivered kittens under my shed before I could trap her. I have never had kittens of my own before. It has been so fun watching the interaction between mama and the babies. I have them up in the shed now. They are 8 weeks now. They are still nursing..or trying to nurse..and they interact alot with their mother. I can see now why 12 weeks is the proper time.

p3 and the king · Jul 6, 2012

Exactly Willowy, I agree if one reply has already stated this... Fine and helpful... But when everyone does this, that's when it looks bad and looks like we're attacking the person. That's when a lot don't come back because they feel attacked. All I'm saying is we should be mindful of it and remember this is a person with feelings and someone who wants to do right by their kitten or else they wouldn't be here asking. If one person has already pointed it out, there is no need for anyone else to do so. State your advice without it is my thoughts on it....That's all.

jennyr · Jul 6, 2012

This is a good thread, inb my opinion, and anything we can do to give advice but remain sensitive to feelings will keep people here. It is a bit the same with spay/neuter advice - many people have felt bashed by every post stating that they must get mom spayed asap, even if they have already stated their intention to do so. It may be different in a thread debating the pros and cons of some practice, especially declawing, where we want people to see that the vast majority are against it. But basically if everyone read threads properly before posting, took into account the advice already given, and then offer their views or advice in a sensitive manner, we would have far less hassle and probably more members!

p3 and the king · Jul 6, 2012

Thank you JennyRanson... It's just something that has been on my mind for awhile. I realize we all love our cats and others cats. And sometimes a subject you are passionate about can't help but come across wrong at times. I think we could do so much better and be a lot more successful if we are more mindful and in check of our own emotions. Help the person and the kitty by showing compassion instead of passion seems more the way to go. Being too passionate often leads to people disappearing and the kitty isn't helped that way.

eponaboo · Jul 6, 2012

have to admit when i first arrived here i felt a little intimidated when I read some of the posts of people, took a while for I had the courage to post because i was worried id say the wrong thing and have everyone hassling me lol! Glad i stuck around not everyones an ogre ^^

detmut · Jul 6, 2012

Iris said:
I am a cat lover..and now a cat trapper..TNR person. A stray cat showed up and delivered kittens under my shed before I could trap her. I have never had kittens of my own before. It has been so fun watching the interaction between mama and the babies. I have them up in the shed now. They are 8 weeks now. They are still nursing..or trying to nurse..and they interact alot with their mother. I can see now why 12 weeks is the proper time.

isn't this the best time to take the feral kittens? at 8 weeks? if you wait until 12 weeks, won't the kittens be feral?

p3 and the king · Jul 6, 2012

detmut said:
isn't this the best time to take the feral kittens? at 8 weeks? if you wait until 12 weeks, won't the kittens be feral?

No that is not true. 8 weeks is far too young. They are barely weaned at that age, and some are still nursing. 12 weeks, they have their own immunity built up and they have crucial life skills from mom and siblings learned. It decreases the chances of behavior problems, and health problems greatly if you wait until 12 weeks. A kitten won't be resort to being feral unless it is tossed out and forced to fend for itself and has no human contact whatsoever.

detmut · Jul 6, 2012

P3 and The King said:
No that is not true. 8 weeks is far too young. They are barely weaned at that age, and some are still nursing. 12 weeks, they have their own immunity built up and they have crucial life skills from mom and siblings learned. It decreases the chances of behavior problems, and health problems greatly if you wait until 12 weeks. A kitten won't be resort to being feral unless it is tossed out and forced to fend for itself and has no human contact whatsoever.

i was talking about kittens born to a feral cat. the feral queen will teach them to be feral. at some point they will be feral too.

p3 and the king · Jul 6, 2012

detmut said:
i was talking about kittens born to a feral cat. the feral queen will teach them to be feral. at some point they will be feral too.

This post isn't for that topic. You can start your own post if you wish but I'll go ahead and answer you... Yes, if you or someone does not intervene then the kittens will be feral. The best thing to do is to TNR the mother so she can't continue to have more kittens and the kittens will need to be trapped, too at 8 weeks of age. But go ahead and have them desexed, as well. But 8 weeks old, they will be distrustful of humans but within a few days or a couple of weeks, they will be fine.

If you already have the mother and her babies... It does not mean she will teach them to be feral. You just need to interact with them everyday and they will not be.

jennyr · Jul 7, 2012

P3, I think it is a fair question in this thread, as it started about taking kittens away from mom too early. What you are saying is good advice for those with this problem of potentially feral kittens.

otto · Jul 12, 2012

P3 and The King said:
Exactly Willowy, I agree if one reply has already stated this... Fine and helpful... But when everyone does this, that's when it looks bad and looks like we're attacking the person. That's when a lot don't come back because they feel attacked. All I'm saying is we should be mindful of it and remember this is a person with feelings and someone who wants to do right by their kitten or else they wouldn't be here asking. If one person has already pointed it out, there is no need for anyone else to do so. State your advice without it is my thoughts on it....That's all.

I don't agree.

If one person says 6 weeks is too young, that is only one "opinion" and may not carry much weight. If six people say it, or agree with the first person to say it, it adds emphasis to the information. It can be said without being condescending, after all.

People do need to understand that, if there is any choice in the matter under 10-12 weeks is really too young. Not just so they won't make the same 'mistake' but, as was already said, so they can understand that their may be behavior challenges that they might not have had if the kitten stayed in the family circle longer.

And more people than the person who posted the question reads these boards, so the more people reached on this issue, the better.

The information, repeated and reinforced, may save some other kittens from being taken from their mamas too soon.

jennyr · Jul 12, 2012

otto said:
I don't agree. If one person says 6 weeks is too young, that is only one "opinion" and may not carry much weight. If six people say it, or agree with the first person to say it, it adds emphasis to the information. It can be said without being condescending, after all.
People do need to understand that, if there is any choice in the matter under 10-12 weeks is really too young. Not just so they won't make the same 'mistake' but, as was already said, so they can understand that their may be behavior challenges that they might not have had if the kitten stayed in the family circle longer.
And more people than the person who posted the question reads these boards, so the more people reached on this issue, the better.
The information, repeated and reinforced, may save some other kittens from being taken from their mamas too soon.

We can agree with each other without bashing the poster in an insensitive way.

detmut · Jul 12, 2012

also, remind new users that they can block any member they want

eb24 · Jul 12, 2012

otto said:
I don't agree.

If one person says 6 weeks is too young, that is only one "opinion" and may not carry much weight. If six people say it, or agree with the first person to say it, it adds emphasis to the information. It can be said without being condescending, after all.
People do need to understand that, if there is any choice in the matter under 10-12 weeks is really too young. Not just so they won't make the same 'mistake' but, as was already said, so they can understand that their may be behavior challenges that they might not have had if the kitten stayed in the family circle longer.
And more people than the person who posted the question reads these boards, so the more people reached on this issue, the better.
The information, repeated and reinforced, may save some other kittens from being taken from their mamas too soon.

I think you have an interesting point, and are possibly raising a middle ground. Overall, I agree that just telling people the same thing over and over again makes them feel attacked and is ultimately counterproductive, but if you elaborate on the "why" (which is what I feel like you are saying) then it may be a way to reiterate the point more effectively. For example, 10 posts that all say "taking a kitten at 6 weeks is too young" can start to feel like bashing, whereas, "here are some of the things to watch for since your kitten was probably weaned too early" (underdeveloped immune system, needs more help with weaning, extra socialization, ect).

I always attempt to only post a reply if I feel like I can add something that hasn't been said but oftentimes premise with, "I agree with what others have said." I think it gets the point across without sounding so judgemental and repetitive. While that's never anyone's intent I see how it can be construed that way, and I appreciate P3 raising this issue so we can all be more mindful and try to help people, not discourage them from coming back. I know I am still relatively new, but I love this forum and find it so helpful. I hope others feel the same.

jennyr · Jul 13, 2012

EB24 said:
I think you have an interesting point, and are possibly raising a middle ground. Overall, I agree that just telling people the same thing over and over again makes them feel attacked and is ultimately counterproductive, but if you elaborate on the "why" (which is what I feel like you are saying) then it may be a way to reiterate the point more effectively. For example, 10 posts that all say "taking a kitten at 6 weeks is too young" can start to feel like bashing, whereas, "here are some of the things to watch for since your kitten was probably weaned too early" (underdeveloped immune system, needs more help with weaning, extra socialization, ect).

I always attempt to only post a reply if I feel like I can add something that hasn't been said but oftentimes premise with, "I agree with what others have said." I think it gets the point across without sounding so judgemental and repetitive. While that's never anyone's intent I see how it can be construed that way, and I appreciate P3 raising this issue so we can all be more mindful and try to help people, not discourage them from coming back. I know I am still relatively new, but I love this forum and find it so helpful. I hope others feel the same.

Very well put!

Just an observation

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