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Do indoor cats really need vaccines?

post #1 of 117
Thread Starter 

I just want the proven facts here. If a cat never goes outside, what vaccines does it need that are not required by law? Is there any reason not to vaccinate the cat at all except for the state-mandated rabies shot?

post #2 of 117
IMHO this is a very good reading: http://www.holisticat.com/vaccinations.html

Now, here is what I personally do, due to my ***personal situation***:

Bugsy - due to severe vaccine reactions, he will no longer be vaccinated - even though it is the law, his vet will write a letter to the city. His last vaccine (rabies) got him very, very sick.

I ran a titer test for distemper and the other diseases on the 3-in-one vaccine - he is fine, and will no longer be vaccinated either.
I would not run a titer, and no longer vaccinate, BUT - Distemper kills, and the virus is carried in clothes, shoes, skin, etc - my live-in petsitter is a vet tech, and I travel about 3 weeks of the month, during which she is in my house, taking care of my kitties. I HAVE to be safe in case she unkwowinly comes in contact with a distemper cat.

Hope and Lucky receive Purevax Rabies vaccine once a year because of the pesitting situation - Hope is a bitey kitty, and the last thing I want is her in quarantene because she bit the pet sitter rolleyes.gif

I will not vaccinate either for Distemper. (my vet's protocol is once every 3 years).

If I not travelled for a living, I would not vaccinate any of them at this point - I believe they are fine at this point.... But with my personal situation, they require a bit of extra safety - I have to choose the lesser of both evils.
post #3 of 117

My cat has not been vaccinated since he was a kitten. He is 10 years old, indoor only. I don't vaccinate my dogs as adults either, just rabies... IMO vaccines are effective for way longer than the manufacturer says anyway. I probably carry in God-knows-what on my clothes every day just from being out in the world (especially working at a vet clinic) and I tend to believe this is enough to keep the immune response of my healthy animals adequate.

 

That's just me, though. For most people I recommend they at least get titers checked. But I don't think we need to vaccinate all the time, especially indoor cats that aren't out there exploring the world of disease.

post #4 of 117

I only vaccinated some of my cats as the clinic I used to use required rabies and a combo shot.  Now I don't vac any of them except the outside cats I trap and the 2 outside cats I have.  Dog gets rabies only.  If you are low risk I see no reason to do it.  I am higher risk cause I have alot of cats but so far it has not been an issue.  I don't have many people over and they either don't have cats or it's the cats my Mom has that used to live with these guys anyways.
 

post #5 of 117
I give the kitten series, or one set if it's an adult stray. I don't vaccinate after that. There's pretty good evidence that the core vaccines confer immunity for a very long time, possibly for life. I don't have many people over (and those I do have over are non-hysterical friends and family, who wouldn't report it even if something did happen), so I don't worry about bite/scratch incidents. If I had tame outdoor cats I would keep them current on rabies.

When I did vaccinate more often, the cats always had some chronic health thing going on. My first cat had IBD-type symptoms from about age 6 to about age 13. We stopped vaccinating her at age 10 and within 3 years she didn't have symtoms anymore, and lived to be 21 in fine health. I don't think she would have lived that long if we had kept vaccinating her. My first dog would become very dog aggressive for a few months after every vaccine. It took me a while to catch on to the cause of the aggression, but there was absolutely no doubt after I did figure it out. Anyway, vaccines cause more problems than just acute reactions or cancer.
post #6 of 117

I'd recommend basic vaccinations...

 

Think of it this way: A starving cat shows up on your doorstep, mewing pitifully and purring the second she's touched. What do you do?

 

Yeah. You take the cat in, you feed her, you try to find her a home. How could you do anything different? But that starving stray could expose your cats--even if only indirectly--to the common feline diseases. Things can spread through the air, be carried on your hands, survive in shared spaces. Are the risks lower than if your cat went outdoors? Well, sure; lots lower. But they're not zero and I think the risk of exposure is still more important than the minimal risks you take when you vaccinate a cat.

 

It's not just if you take in a stray--what about that new kitten you adopt from the shelter, or the time you have to get your cat-loving friend to take care of your cat while you go and help family out, or the stuff your cat gets exposed to in the vet's waiting room? What if the cat gets lost and spends a week prowling the neighborhood before you manage to scoop her back up again? You can't keep your cat in a perfect bubble.

 

Trying to vaccinate against everything might not make sense if the cat is an indoor-only cat, but I wouldn't argue against vaccination, period. Go for the kitten shots at least--basic defenses against major cat diseases. If your cat's indoor-only and you don't foster or board the cat anywhere, that's probably enough.

 

Naturally there are exceptions, like Carolina's cat Bugsy, where the risk of vaccination really is higher than the risk of the disease; but usually, it's not. Usually it's safer to vaccinate.

post #7 of 117

Local law requires Rabies. I also must pay a professional pet sitter to care for my cats while I am away.  If not current on shots, they are not allowed to enter into my house.  Boarding is definitely not possible without shots (worst case scenario for me would be boarding).

 

I do feel that pets are over vaccinated.  I wish that the laws would adapt to more recent studies.  I do understand the fear of rabies, but some of the other vaccinations do not seem necessary for low risk pets, especially indoor only.

post #8 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcarst View Post

Local law requires rabies. I also must pay a professional pet sitter to care for my cats while I am away.  If not current on shots, they are not allowed to enter into my house.  Boarding is definitely not possible without shots (worst case scenario for me would be boarding).

 

I do feel that pets are over vaccinated.  I wish that the laws would adapt to more recent studies.  I do understand the fear of rabies, but some of the other vaccinations do not seem necessary for low risk pets, especially indoor only.

In Ohio, where I lived until December, the only state-mandated vaccine is rabies. Because it poses a risk to humans and kills quickly, I always wondered why any state does not require the rabies vaccine. But I do oppose the requirement to put a collar on your cat and never used one. Now I can understand concerns about skin cancer on the right leg, but those are rare and I would not forgo the vaccine unless the cat already had one in the past.

 

By "over-vaccinated," do you mean too many diseases or too many shots for each virus?

post #9 of 117

I have never vaccinated my cat in her life for anything and she is 12 years old.  That was pretty radical thinking back then and I am so grateful that I took the advice of a good friend many years.  Since that time I have spent many years research vaccines and immunology I am even more convinced I made the right decision many years ago.  Me personally, I would never vaccinate my cat.

post #10 of 117

http://www.naturalrearing.com/coda/a_rabies_the_big_scam.html

 

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/vaccination/

post #11 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post

I give the kitten series, or one set if it's an adult stray. I don't vaccinate after that. There's pretty good evidence that the core vaccines confer immunity for a very long time, possibly for life.

yeah.gif That's what we do. Ours no longer receive any vaccinations of any kind. We'd get an exception letter from the vet if needed, but even rabies isn't required in our county. We figure if there's an emergency of some kind, and they need to go to boarding or WHATEVER, we'll get them done then if necessary.

Our vets get rabies vaccinations. They have titre tests done very two years. So far, none of them have needed boosters. There's no reason to think the immune system of animals functions any differently:

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/vaccines/FrenchRabiesStudy.html
Quote:
A note from Kris Christine: "This document is very important, because rabies is the one vaccine we are required by law to give our dogs. This study, which I refer to as "The French Study" demonstrated that, by challenge, vaccinated dogs were immune to rabies 5 years after innoculation. Under separate cover I had e-mailed you an attachment containing the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines -- check out the referenced quote here. Also, check out this link http://www.rabavert.com/risk.html for the Populations at Risk for Rabies sheet from Chiron Corporation, manufacturers of the RabAvert rabies vaccines for humans. Their pre-exposure vaccination recommendation for veterinarians, who are at greater risk than the general population for contracting rabies because their profession brings them into physical contact with potentially rabid animals, is for a “Primary course. No serologic testing or booster vaccination.” In other words, after the initial series of rabies vaccinations, it is not recommended that veterinarians receive further boosters or serological testing. Interestingly, the AAHA’s 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines state on Page 18 that “There is no indication that the immune system of canine patients functions in any way different from the human immune system. In humans, the epidemiological vigilance associated with vaccination is extremely well-developed and far exceeds similar efforts in animals whether companion or agricultural. This vigilance in humans indicates that immunity induced by vaccination in humans is extremely long lasting and, in most cases, life-long.” This strongly suggests that, like the human rabies vaccine, the canine rabies vaccine may provide life-long immunity as well -- something which could be determined by long-term challenge studies."

The 1992 French Study is included in the link.

The Rabies Challenge Fund is conducting a longer-term challenge study, though the initial goal is simply to "prove" that the 3-year is three years:

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/education/why-challenge-current-rabies-vaccine-policy
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=88487

The rabies thing is interesting. There are 2 manufacturers of the vaccine for animals. The EXACT SAME PRODUCT is marked "one year" or "three years," depending upon where it is being delivered. Some States require one-year rabies vaccinations - yet the Federal requirement is every three years. dontknow.gif

From the Little Big Cat link above:
Quote:
Dr. Ronald Schultz at the University of Wisconsin is the premier vaccine researcher in the country. He says, that “canine distemper and adenovirus-2 vaccines both provide good lifelong immunity. These need not be given annually.” He says the same about the feline distemper (panleukopenia) vaccine. He believes that a single dose of modified live vaccine given at 10-14 weeks of age is protective for life. Both canine and feline distemper vaccines have been shown to induce immunity for 3-8 years or more. Moreover, all of these are diseases of young animals; most older animals are naturally resistant. Once vaccinated, adult animals are typically fully immune.

If you rescue or foster, having a "quarantine room" is a necessary precaution. And those rescue/foster animals shouldn't be introduced to your cats until they've seen a vet, been vaccinated, and several weeks have passed to ensure no illness flares up, even if they do not appear sick. dontknow.gif So I see no reason to - what in my opinion - is over-vaccinated your own cats because you rescue or foster. dontknow.gif
post #12 of 117
I do not vaccinate my pets any longer. I am certain that my dog, Wilbur has had serious health issues over the years from being over-vaccinated unnecessarily. shame.gif Google "vaccinosis".

I follow Dr. Dodd's protocol for dogs/cats now and our holistic vet's recommendations are the same. http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM
post #13 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhondjie View Post

Yes, please visit the website http://www.petwellbeing.com, you will find enough reason to vaccinate your cat even it is not supposed to visit outside.

That looks like a pay-per-ask-question site.
post #14 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

That looks like a pay-per-ask-question site.

laughing02.gif just saw that too rolleyes.gif Many vet's are ALL for vaccines, of course, it helps line their pockets along side the drug companies who manufacture the vaccinations.
post #15 of 117
Thread Starter 

The rabies challenge article is very interesting but says nothing about cats. How do you know cats and dogs have identical immune systems?

 

I don't know if Florida requires the rabies vaccine, but if it does, I will not ask for a waiver for any cat that has no adverse reaction to it.

 

My question was more about what cats need IN ADDITION TO rabies, if anything.

post #16 of 117
http://www.alleycat.org/Page.aspx?pid=686
Quote:
“Even a single dose of rabies vaccination provides years of protection against rabies infection,” says Levy. In one study*, 12-week-old kittens given a single rabies vaccine were completely protected against rabies four years later when they were exposed to the rabies virus, she says. “There is solid evidence that a single rabies vaccine produces multi-year immunity.” (*Note: Alley Cat Allies is against testing on animals, as it is against all cruelty toward animals. There are better alternatives to animal testing—including mathematical and computer modeling or using cultures from cells, organs, or tissues—that are precise and sophisticated.)

Vaccination schedules that require one or three year boosters are based on state and local laws, not evidence about the vaccines’ efficacy, says Lillich. Most local laws require rabies vaccination either yearly or every three years and so vaccine manufacturers tailor their studies and products to these time periods. In fact, one vaccine manufacturer produces multiple versions of the identical vaccine with different labels according to the locally mandated vaccination schedules.

Studies suggest that the vaccines last a minimum of three years, but due to expense and logistics, large-scale studies have never been extended past three years, Lillich says. Some trials suggest that the vaccines last beyond three years, and the Rabies Challenge Fund (RCF) was founded in 2005 to determine the duration of immunity that rabies vaccines provide in hopes of convincing lawmakers to change laws mandating excessive vaccinations. The RCF aims to extend the required interval for rabies boosters to at least seven years. Learn more about Vaccinations and Feline Cancer.

This is the Vaccinations and Feline Cancer link referred to: http://www.alleycat.org/page.aspx?pid=688


I can't answer your other question. Based on my research, we provide rabies and distemper for kittens, and that's it. All three of our vets are on board for this. dontknow.gif
post #17 of 117
Oh - here's the asterisked part:
Quote:
“There is solid evidence that a single rabies vaccine produces multi-year immunity,” says Julie Levy, DVM, PhD, at the University of Florida in Gainesville. But finding out exactly how long vaccines can protect against rabies requires expensive, complicated studies and neither vaccine makers nor local governments have much incentive to fund these studies. The RCF aims to fill this gap by funding trials they hope will eventually extend the required interval for rabies boosters to five and then to seven years.

Apparently the studies in dogs will work for cats.
post #18 of 117
The cats are not vaccinated outside of the kitten vaccines. They do not go outside and we do not bring untested animals in the house. We have had zero issues with this and our vet is fully on-board. In fact, when we switched to her, one of the questions on the form asked if the cat is current on vaccinations and I marked no, to which the vet said "mine aren't either, kitten vacs are sufficient". We don't do a yearly rabies either.

The dogs are a bit different. The old dog gets a rabies every year because it's required for city license. The young dog gets a full set every year so far (she's two) as she goes to the dog park and Petsmart and will soon be approved as a therapy dog.
post #19 of 117
Thread Starter 

OMG Laurie you quoted somebody in my city! I am about 10 minutes away from UF.

post #20 of 117
I noticed that later. laughing02.gif Yep, Julie Levy is hugely published, a very famous vet. She's done a lot of work on TNR, many JAVMA articles. (Rabies/vaccinations, obviously a big topic as re: TNR). You've heard of Operation Catnip, I presume? That's her brain child. She's also affiliated with Maddie's Fund and Winn Feline Foundation. agree.gif
post #21 of 117
http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Pages/Winn_Release_Julie_Levy.pdf
Quote:
Dr. Julie Levy graduated from the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of
California at Davis in 1989. She completed an internship at Angell Memorial Animal
Hospital (1990) and a residency in small animal internal medicine at North Carolina State
University (1993), where she also completed a PhD in immunology. Dr. Levy is a
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine and is currently an
associate professor with the small animal medicine service at the University of Florida.
She is the recipient of many honors including the “2005 Outstanding Woman
Veterinarian of the Year.” Dr. Levy’s research and clinical interests center on feline
infectious diseases, neonatal kitten health, and humane alternatives for cat population
control. She is the founder of two university-based feral cat spay/neuter programs that
have sterilized more than 20,000 cats since 1997 (Operation Catnip). These programs
form the basis for research on a variety of feral cat issues, including infectious diseases,
caretaker characteristics, colony dynamics, and anesthesia protocols. Dr. Levy also
maintains an active program investigating vaccines for potential immunocontraception in
cats.

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/about-the-college/faculty-directory/julie-levy/

Honors and Awards

European Society of Feline Medicine Award for Outstanding Contributions in the Field of Feline Medicine, to be awarded in Budapest, Hungary, September 2007.
Outstanding Woman Veterinarian of the Year, Association of Women Veterinarians, 2005.
Commendation for Community Service, Alachua County Board of Commissioners, 2005.
Clinical Investigator Award, Florida Veterinary Medical Association, 2003.
Carl J. Norden-Pfizer Distinguished Teacher Award, 2003.
Student Organization Advisor of the Year for the Student Chapter of the American Association of Feline Practitioners, University of Florida, 2002.
Superior Accomplishment Award, for establishment of Operation Catnip, a large-scale spay-neuter clinic for feral cats at the College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, 2000.
Distinguished Research Award, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine, 1993.
Silver Animal Bedside Manner Award, College of Veterinary Medicine, North Carolina State University, 1993.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=levy-jk%20gainesville

Her area of specialty is immunology.
post #22 of 117
Thread Starter 

I learned about Operation Catnip when I was checking out the website of a local vet who happens to be a Gator.

 

For those who don't know, Operation Catnip is a TNR program.

post #23 of 117
Quote:
happens to be a Gator.

Off topic...but GO Gators!  I'm in TX now, but Gainesville is my home.

 

On topic, I'm enjoying the discussion and reading some of the links.  Since my Eko had a lump which was a reaction to an antibiotics shot, I've been interested in making sure he doesn't get more shots than needed.  We made a well thought out decision to board our cats when we travel, so we will need to do distemper and rabies unless we change those arrangements.  Some boarding places require feline leukemia vaccine and we eliminated those without even a visit.

post #24 of 117

My equine vet was out a few months ago and she said "Diane you would have loved the recent veterinary conference that I attended at CSU" I said oh really and why is that so she went on to say that there were hundreds of vets at this conference and the question was asked "If there was conclusive proof that vaccines didn't not need to be administered for the life of the pet, how many would stop giving vaccines?"  Out of all those vets only 5 raised their hands and 2 of them were large animal only vets.  Several actually said they would continue with their own shot protocol until the AVMA mandates otherwise.  Now why do you suppose those vets feel strongly about give dangerous, and unnecessary vaccines?  They make money all day long by making our pets sick;(  My equine vet now says she should have listened to me and not vaccinated her senior dog which is now dying with cancer.  She said she will never feed another prescription diet again.  

 

The answer to the original post is, no you do not need to vaccinate your adult cats for anything.  There is proof beyond a doubt that just 1 Panleukopenia vaccines gives life time immunity (feline distemper vaccine).  I suppose if you want to do what is right by the law that is certainly up to you and I would never want to advice someone to do otherwise.  I can only tell you what I do for my pets and I feel I must protect them against the pharmaceutical industry at all cost.

post #25 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by txcatmom View Post

Off topic...but GO Gators!  I'm in TX now, but Gainesville is my home.

 

On topic, I'm enjoying the discussion and reading some of the links.  Since my Eko had a lump which was a reaction to an antibiotics shot, I've been interested in making sure he doesn't get more shots than needed.  We made a well thought out decision to board our cats when we travel, so we will need to do distemper and rabies unless we change those arrangements.  Some boarding places require feline leukemia vaccine and we eliminated those without even a visit.

I am the same way. Nothing will make me stop being a Buckeyes fan even though I am in Gatlor Country now.

 

What kind of reaction did Edo have after the antibiotics shot?

 

I have to disagree on the FLV part. I have heard of shelters euthanizing cats just because they tested positive for FLV, even though they were not symptomatic, because the virus can spread from cat to cat while dormant in the carrier. If your cat never had the FLV shot before, why not just do it one time for boarding?


Edited by EmilyMayWilcha - 6/20/12 at 6:33pm
post #26 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyMayWilcha View Post


I have to disagree on the FLV part. I have heard of shelters euthanizing cats just because they tested positive for FLV, even though they were not symptomatic, because the virus can spread from cat to cat while dormant in the carrier. If your cat never had the FLV shot before, why not just do it one time for boarding?
Emily, can you explain this?
Are you saying inside cats should have FeLV vaccines?
Are you also saying you heard the FeLV virus is transmitted through the carriers?

FYI, FeLV shots are the most dangerous shots, and should not be given to inside cats - at all. They carry the highest risk of cancer..... And that type of cancer, fibrosarcoma, is extremely fast growing, and something you do not want to play with it. This is a vaccine you only want to give to outside cats....
And if you heard that FeLV is transmitted through carriers, my goodness, oh boy.....
post #27 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyMayWilcha View Post

...I have to disagree on the FLV part. I have heard of shelters euthanizing cats just because they tested positive for FLV, even though they were not symptomatic, because the virus can spread from cat to cat while dormant in the carrier. If your cat never had the FLV shot before, why not just do it one time for boarding?

But cats in boarding aren't kept communally, so how would they pass it to each other? And I think you were participating in the thread where we were chatting about FeLV. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245397/feline-leukemia-confusion

The SNAP tests indicate false positives (according to the Cats Protection League in the UK) 50% of the time. The FeLV vaccination only affords protection about 70% of the time - that's not a very high success rate. NONE of our vets recommend it, even for TNR cats. Why should a boarding facility require an FeLV vaccination? Why not just proof of a negative SNAP test? dontknow.gif

As re: shelters euthanizing FeLV cats, that's a space vs. cost and likelihood of adoption issue. What shelter can afford IFA tests for cats testing positive for FeLV on a SNAP test?
post #28 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


Emily, can you explain this?
Are you saying inside cats should have FeLV vaccines?
Are you also saying you heard the FeLV virus is transmitted through the carriers?
FYI, FeLV shots are the most dangerous shots, and should not be given to inside cats - at all. They carry the highest risk of cancer..... And that type of cancer, fibrosarcoma, is extremely fast growing, and something you do not want to play with it. This is a vaccine you only want to give to outside cats....
And if you heard that FeLV is transmitted through carriers, my goodness, oh boy.....

I am not saying inside-only cats should regularly get the FLV vaccine. My thought was along the lines of "one shot can't kill but the FLV does."

 

Wilbur was fostered by a woman who had a dozen FLV+ cats. They were not all symptomatic, just FLV carriers. But because they had a virus somewhere in their bodies that can spread to other cats, they could only live with other FLV+ cats. This is not just a random statement I heard but my own beloved Wilbur's foster environment. He went to that house because he tested positive for FLV. How is that not evidence FLV will be transmitted from a carrier before the cat gets sick?

post #29 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyMayWilcha View Post

I am not saying inside-only cats should regularly get the FLV vaccine. My thought was along the lines of "one shot can't kill but the FLV does."

Wilbur was fostered by a woman who had a dozen FLV+ cats. They were not all symptomatic, just FLV carriers. But because they had a virus somewhere in their bodies that can spread to other cats, they could only live with other FLV+ cats. This is not just a random statement I heard but my own beloved Wilbur's foster environment. He went to that house because he tested positive for FLV. How is that not evidence FLV will be transmitted from a carrier before the cat gets sick?
Emily, I hope you see how this is a completely dofferent situation.
Wilbur was fostered in a home with a dozen of other cats, who had FeLV - he was in the general population - obviously, a very risky environment.
In a shelter, or while boarding cats are not in the same situation - they are not put into the general population. They don't share dishes, they don't groom each other.... They have no risk of fighting, or trying to mate, or biting..... So, the risk of transmitting the disease is really not there....
Major, major difference.

As Laurie explained, the issue with shelters euthanizing FeLV cats is entirely different.... It is a cost issue, and the fact that they have almost zero chances of being adopted in the first place. They are viewed as condemned cats who are taking the space of other adoptable cats..... So they are PTS....
post #30 of 117
Thread Starter 

In that case it does make sense to not worry about your cat getting FLV. But just because I am interested in the topic, I want to know what the risk is of a cat having a fibrosarcoma on its left leg after getting the FLV vaccine.

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