Outside Kitty is Sick - URI + ?

Mike's vet appointment was today. Hubby took him as I had to work 6a-5p today (ugh). They checked for a polyp. They didn't find a polyp. So Mike still can barely breath, even though his nose is really very clear compared to how it was when we first found him. Nose is much better, breathing is exactly the same. Apparently the vet told hubby that Mike just might have a chronic infection. I understand chronic, but he literally can barely breathe! He can hardly run even the shortest distances because he can't breathe well enough to do it. They confirmed his age as 4-5 years, so its not because he's old. They cleaned his teeth, but said he needs a lot more work in there, and some teeth will need removed. They said that will cost us another $300 so we're going to have to put it off at least for a little while. Mike has had a good appetite as long as we've known him, so I don't think his teeth are bothering him terribly just yet. The vet said he might not eat much today because his teeth may be sore from the cleaning they did do, but he immediately took to the food I put out, so I think he's okay. They gave him 62.5mg of Clavamox twice a day to see if that does any better than the convenia. And also 7.5mL Tresaderm 2x a day for his ears. I'm not exactly sure what the Tresaderm is for. He had really terrible ear mites, but they are gone? Not sure if this is just to clean his ears out or what? Hubby doesn't ask enough questions and I think he only remembers half of what they tell him! Ugh lol. Wish I could have been there myself! 

Anyhow, sorry this post was all over the place. I'm just pretty bummed right now. I was holding out hope that Mike had a polyp and it would be an easy fix by getting rid of it and he could breath again. Chronic sniffles I can deal with, but him barely being able to breath is kind of hard to take. Basically we got a $400 vet bill and we don't really know anything more now than we did before, except the extend of his bad teeth. Blood panel came out completely normal. Any advice? Have them check for lung worm? We're in Pennsylvania - pretty sure there are slugs here. Or do some chronic URI's really make it impossible for a kitty to breathe for life? It's so sad seeing him like this...I was okay with it when I thought it was just temporary

With 8 cats, all rescues (and we kept the health compromised ones) I can relate to the frustration of money spent with no answers.

I'm really unclear what kind of dental that was if they did a cleaning and said he needs extractions - but didn't extract the bad tooth/teeth. :dk: I've never heard of that, actually. I know you've spent a lot of money on him, but please get the needed dental done when you can. Have you ever had a toothache? Cats hide pain really well, and his eating or not eating doesn't necessarily mean he's not in pain. Cats hide pain REALLY well, it's part of their survival instincts.

Another thing I'm wondering - were x-rays done? This is a very normal first-line diagnostic for breathing problems when antibiotics don't clear something up. Your boy may have asthma (or allergies, or bronchitis), not an infection, and personally, I would not want to give my cat more antibiotics until I knew there was an infection to treat. :dk: And IF it's bronchitis, those aren't the right antibiotics. You say his blood work was normal. So if his white blood cell count is fine, and not at the low or high-end, that to me says he's not fighting an infection. :dk:

Is there another vet you can get to? At this point, I'd want a second opinion, and perhaps a better vet. I'm sorry - I don't remember if you said this is the only vet in the area or something?

For now, I'd give him healthy food. I'd consider an omega 3 supplement (4-5 drops from a 1,000mg capsule of salmon oil dropped on his meal 3x a day), or maybe Evening Primrose Oil (a source of GLA that can apparently help with asthma/allergies). Perhaps PM Stephanietx about the use of evening primrose oil. And limit the playing - until you can get at the root of this. But it sounds to me like this vet just wants to throw medications at him, without the right diagnostics to ensure they're needed.

Even better if you can get to a holistic D.V.M. ? http://www.ahvma.org

I think they didn't want to extract the teeth without our permission? I'm not sure. They were in there primarily just to look for the polyp, but did say they would clean his teeth and try to get a better age estimate on him. I checked the holistic vet site, but there are none within 2 hours of here

I ordered Lysine powder from Amazon today. Maybe that will help some when it gets here. I feel stupid giving Mike these antibiotics that he may not even need. Plus what you said makes a LOT of sense. If his blood work was normal and he shows no signs of fighting an infection, then why are we giving him antibiotics in the first place? But I am giving them to him. Ugh. Frustrating. He didn't like the pill pockets at all (weird, cuz he eats everything else), so I had to just slip it in his mouth and point his nose at the sky. He hates it. And he hates the ear drops even worse.

They did not do xrays on him. I guess maybe that should be the next step when we go back. I think we'll probably end up going back to the same place. We're in a very rural area here and the first vet I took my animals to was very backwoodsy and I just don't feel like he was very current with what's going on in the animal world. He was a nice guy, but that's not really what I'm looking for lol This place seems much more professional...they have multiple vets there and I've met at least 2 of them and really liked them both. (Maybe a little more before you started pointing out the flaws in their treatment methods lol). 

And I do have every intention of getting Mike's teeth extracted as necessary when the funds become available. Hubby and I both make decent money and live below our means in order to have extra cash to pay off student loans and what not, but we've spent a LOT of cash on Mike in the last 3 weeks and need to recover financially first. (Now if he stopped eating or something that'd be a different story, but at this point he has a very healthy appetite...) Oh. I noticed my other cats let Mike eat first. Does that make him my alpha kitty?

All cats in the house have (finally) begun to (kind of) eat some watered down fancy feast classic pate. Once they fully convert to that we're going to try the Wellness pate again. I know Mike will have the best chance of improving if he's eating quality food.

What a wonderful thing you are doing.

I can't address any of the medical issues--knock wood, my own rescue cat has been pretty healthy.

Just curious:   Maybe I missed it, but has Mike been neutered?  And is part of one of his ears missing?  Ear tipping'is a well-known sign that the cat has been "TNRd" --  trapped/neutered [spayed]/returned. 

Thanks.

I'm thrilled that you took in Mike and he's now safe in a home where he is well loved and care for. Thank you for doing that.

What did your vet say about chest sounds? (I'm sorry if you mentioned this before and I missed it.) I can be difficult for a vet to differentiate between nasal sounds and chest sounds when their breathing is that bad, I know both my vets and the shelter vet have the same problem with foster Bee. She got the calici virus after being dropped off at the shelter at age 10 by a son who couldn't wait to get her out of the house after his mother died. She stopped eating, developed fatty liver and I fostered her to get her eating again - which she did, but the virus has lingered in her sinuses and she will never be rid of it. Her breathing is so noisy at times that I can hear her at the other end of the house and her sinuses get so clogged with discharge that she gags on it - or she did until I nagged the vets into thinking of better ways to help her than various antibiotics. An antiviral called Famciclovir has made a huge difference. She has to be pulsed on it, about two weeks on and six weeks off, but it has greatly improved her quality of life.  She developed some bronchial problems recently also, which problem came to light when she stopped breathing as they took her off the anesthic after a dental at the shelter. Some cats just have an awful time with breathing, sinus, nasal and lung infections and problems, and when they are chronic it's hard to watch them struggling.

I'm sure you will get the dental done as soon as you can. The infection in his mouth from the decaying teeth will be something else he is fighting.

As others have said, in cat terms Mike is integrating well with your cats. I found  that my cats (all of whom are gentle due to illness, disability or personality) acted as though Nevermore, a large stray I adopted last year, was an alpha cat for months in spite of the fact that he's actually nervous around them. He's big, he's street-wise, he's youngish, and he's new - enough to make them wary.

Please keep updating us on Mike.

Mike is a TNR cat, yes. We noticed his ear was missing but just assumed it was from a fight. We'd seen him beat up several times so it just didn't occur to us. And then when we finally got a good look at him, his huuuge belly actually made us think he might be a pregnant female even thought his face looked very masculine. The vet confirmed he is TNR on our first visit. I had heard about TNR before, but I'm new to cats and I didn't put it all together when I saw him. He has lots of ear folds so it wasn't readily apparently and like I said...I just thought it was from a fight.

When we first took him in, it appeared to be his nose that was the biggest problem. He was just constantly snotting all over the place. An antibiotic shot really did clear up the worst of his nose, but it then sounded to be in his chest or throat, which is why the vet had him checked for polyps yesterday. None were found though, so we're back on a stronger (?) antibiotic. If this doesn't work, we'll be on to the next thing, which I guess is xrays? I will absolutely ask about the anti-viral next time we take him back to the vet. This latest round of antibiotics is to last 14 days so if he's not better then (and it seems unlikely) then I'll try to get him back in.

Thanks for all the advice and comments It helps knowing people are pulling for you!

Laurie is right, normally when there is a dental they remove any bad teeth, but I suppose this vet has a different way of going about it. The troublesome thing is that he was already anesthetized for his dental and now you'll have to pay for that again :-( whenever they do extractions. 

I would definitely get an xray. I don't know why the vet is assuming chronic infection; it could be simply by listening to him breathing, but I think it would help you to do the xray and see what is in there. Also Clavamox on top of two shots of covenia is a lot of antibiotics. For all the money you have spent, it would be good to do a sit-down with the vet and figure out what are the next steps toward dealing with this, since it is all coming out of your pocket. 

Vets hate forums like these where we are all back seat driving, but there is a huge amount of knowledge and experience on this site. I agree it would be good to have an xray done. 

I have never heard of a chronic URI that never goes away. There are cats that "carry" herpes or calici viruses and shed them and get ill when stressed, but I don't know of cats that always show symptoms like what you describe. The only kind of situation I can think of like that would be if your kitty were immune compromised with FIV or something like that. OR, like what the vet believed, i.e. that he had a polyp or something that was causing him to be congested. Your vet's belief was logical. Now that this is not the case, and given that Mike is not running a temperature and has a healthy appetite, I'd be looking in a different direction. 

The only cat I know who was chronically snotty and wheezy had some problems with his eyelashes being kind of inside-facing so that he was always irritated. But your cat sounds like he has breathing problems, as in, chest breathing problems. That is different. I would do an xray for that. It should cost you around $100. Or ask the vet why they aren't going with an xray at this point.

I would also ask the vet if your kitty tested negative for FIV. 

By the way, I adore Mike's eyes, he his just so darned gorgeous and sweet. :-)

Aww...no words of wisdom here, just wanted to say thank you for loving Mike and giving him such a good home.    The folks her really are helpful with health issues, aren't they?

I read this thread with interest because we are considering adopting an orange tabby girl (6-8 yrs old) who has possible upper respiratory and just general poor health, it seems.  (She also has a silent meow and I totally related to what you said about mistaking it for hissing at first.)  A lot of what was discussed here could be relevant.

Good luck with Mike.  Keep us updated. 

We're supposed to be pilling Mike with the Clavamox twice a day. The first 3 doses we got in just fine. He didn't want anything to do with the pill pockets, so we just put the pill in his mouse and pointed his nose in the air and he would swallow it. Well by the time the 4th dose got here, he got a little wiser and just started breathing through his nose until we let go of his mouth and then he spit it out. After several fruitless attempts, I just gave up. The reason being that we kind of suspected earlier in this thread that more antibiotics wasn't really the answer and we probably need to move on to chest xrays or something else. So now, after 3 missed doses of Clavamox, Mike's nose is started to goop back up again. Clearly the antibiotics were helping. I'm not sure what that means are far as our next course of action. But what I do know for now is that I need to figure out how to get this Clavamox into Mike's little tummy since it was helping him.

Like I said, he had no interest in pill pockets, and became too smart to be pilled just by sticking it in his mouth.

I just read another thread about putting butter on the pill and I tried that just now too but he ate the butter and spit the pill back out. I need ideas because his nose is looking pretty bad again after only 2 days (it really had reached the point of looking "normal") and I don't want it to get any worse!

What helps me is getting right in front of my cat while he is sitting at eye level with me (on the counter lol). If I can get his mouth open I aim for the back of the tongue and push the pill in with my pointing finger. The back of the tongue is an almost sure thing that he will swallow it. Then I give him a treat so he associates the pill with good things too. 

I can't remember how big the clavamox pills are, but if you can't go in frontally, go into his mouth sideways with your finger, kind of hooking it around his mouth, that is a good way to get it open and then push the pill in that way. And you can get a treat in there or whipped cream, he may just eat whatever you add before spitting out the pill.

There are some good videos on you tube on how to get the pill in there, and also I found the comments that people leave are very helpful. Also someone posted on this site very recently about how they pill their cat and I wish I could find it again bc it was also very helpful. 

Last but not least if you have a plastic syringe (if not, get one from the vet) you can fill it with water. Get the pill in and squirt the water immediately and he will swallow.

Clavamox also comes in liquid form. It is a hassle because it has to be refrigerated and I have forgotten that several times which is a problem. But I find it easiest to use the liquid Clavamox and I use a plastic syringe to squirt it, NOT the eye dropper that comes with it, which is terrible and hard to use. 

What is most important is just don't give up no matter how bummed out Mike gets. Eventually the pill will go in. It is really hard and I have been where you are, but there are great tips on you tube and elsewhere, so look at them and give it another whirl. Plus, do all the preparations, get him at eye level and have treats ready so he is disarmed, give him a few treats ahead of time and then the pill lol, then a treat again :-)

I already gave up and got the liquid form from the vet a few hours ago. It has the little eye dropper thing but I was able to squirt that down the back of his throat and he couldn't really spit it out as easily as he could the pill. Even if he did shake *some* of it out, at least he got some of the medication too, where before he wasn't getting any at all by spitting out the pill.

I also got my lysine powder in the mail today. I put the recommended dose right on top of Mike's wet food and gave it to him. He carefully ate *around* the lysine until he was done. Then River came up to take her turn and did the same. Maybe I should stir it in next time? I thought I read somewhere that it tasted good to cats, so I thought he might just go for it first, but he didn't!

RIccaDawn said:

I also got my lysine powder in the mail today. I put the recommended dose right on top of Mike's wet food and gave it to him. He carefully ate *around* the lysine until he was done. Then River came up to take her turn and did the same. Maybe I should stir it in next time? I thought I read somewhere that it tasted good to cats, so I thought he might just go for it first, but he didn't!

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The lysine I use comes in a syringe and is in the form of goop. Sam, who is a very fussy eater, will eat the lysine goop first before she eats the food. I guess the powder will need to be mixed in. When I use that method, I give a small amount of food (appetizer style),mix in the powder, then make tiny pockets in the food where I pour in the gravy from the can in order to make it irresistible.

By the way, if you forget to put the Clavamax back in the fridge for a while, don't worry too much. Apparently, room temperature simply makes it lose some of its strength, it doesn't "go off."

I would go easy on the lysine at first. The people at the veterinary specialists center where I take Toby (he is being treated with chemo for lymphosarcoma) have told me that cats are really particular about their food and they notice immediately when the food tastes different. In the case of Toby they said not to do anything that would make him stop eating his food and give his additives into other kinds of food, like treats. But maybe it would work if you switched food with Mike so he wouldn't know what the original was "supposed" to taste like. You might want to try getting some solid gold brand tuna for kitties (the purple can with the gold stars on it LOL cats love it) and putting a little bit in there, although the gritty texture of the lysine may throw him off too.

Another thing that someone said very recently is they put the lysine in the cats' water and they didn't notice it at all and some even seemed to like it.

If that doesn't work maybe start a separate thread asking people how they were able to transition their cats to food with l-lysine in it. I would be interested to know that as well :-). At the adoption center where I volunteer, they just switch them over cold turkey and leave it that way-!

If you are interested in other vitamins etc. for Mike, I put 1/2 capsule of this antioxidant formula on my FIV+ cats' food. It is a capsule that you take apart and the powder is liver flavored designed to appeal to cats and dogs. It is from the 2 docs pet wellness site. The vitamin C is extremely beneficial for them and also there are a lot of anti-inflammatory ingredients in there, all of which are homeopathic. I think this may help his overall immune system as well. For FIV+ cats, it has actually stopped the virus altogether. http://www.2docspethealth.com/red-label/pet-antioxidant-formula.html

Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but the directions I remember from a vet tech were to do the tilt up like you did, put the pill as far back as you can, then close his mouth shut and gently stroke his throat until he swallows.  I used this method with Leo recently (when he had no interest in pill pockets) and sometimes it took two tries but it worked.  If his nose gets clearer at some point you could try the pill pockets again.  Leo decided he liked them once he could smell them better.  You have my sympathy....pilling a cat can be hard, especially once they start avoiding it.  You might want to start a new thread with "how to pill a cat" or something.  Others might have some good ideas.  I know some type of device exists for pilling too. 

Edited to add...sorry, I missed the second page before typing the above.  It's good you got a liquid.  My cats lick the lysine powder off the food and then eat their food they like the lysine so much.  I guess we got lucky there.  One cat, Leo, loved the paste in a tube that the vet sold us.  But the other 2 hated it.  I think your idea of mixing it in would be good to try.

The liquid Clovamax is much easier at this point. We'll see what happens in 2 days when he gets used to it too! (hopefully it's not too bad)

Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics, but this first picture is from 3 days ago when Mike was still taking his antibiotics and the second picture is today after he's been off them for 2 days. You can really see the difference in his nose in person, not sure if it showed up so well in the pics. 2 days ago his nose looked pretty much "normal" and now it definitely does not. The eye goop has just never stopped.