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Circumsicion - Page 2

post #31 of 67
LMAO!!! I'm not even going there with you on that one! LOL!
post #32 of 67
Originally posted by Jellybelly
LMAO!!! I'm not even going there with you on that one! LOL!
Jellybelly Sweetie....You're going to pay for that one!
post #33 of 67
My understanding, from my husband, is that the only place female circumcision is practiced somewhat regularly in the middle east still is Egypt. And it is not encouraged or the norm. It's barabaric because of obvious reasons including desensitizing a woman's sexual arousal. In these cases they are actually removing the clitoris but when they circumsize a man, they are not removing the penis or a man's ability to arousal.

In my opinion, cuting the foreskin and folding it back can not be compared to removing a woman's breast. Now if you removed the whole penis, then you could compare the two! OUCH!
post #34 of 67
LMAO! Okay this is a serious subject, but still MzJazz you are baadddd!
post #35 of 67
Thread Starter 
Originally posted by Jellybelly
Anne, I'm surprised at your decision considering you are in Israel, do the majority there not follow the judaic laws? I have a few jewish friends and they had to go through with it or had their sons do it, keeping to the laws passed from Prophet Abraham, the first to be circumcised.
Sorry I'm late responding

We consider ourselves to be secular (as is the majority of the Jews in Israel). Being secular means you don't follow all of the Judaic laws - you just choose which parts of Jewish tradition you keep and which you don't.

Only very religious people keep all (or most) of the Judaic laws. That means, among many other things -

Eating kosher (not talking about just not eating pork - but for example, not eating dairy produtcs for 6 hours after you've had meat; using different kitchen utensils for dairy food and non-dairy food, including two seperate sinks - and tons more of details!)

Keeping the Shabbath (Saturday) - Sticking to dozens of Shabbath laws such as no use of electric appliances (not turning anything off or on), no driving, no writing, no cutting of anything (including toilet paper which has to be cut into pieces before the Shabbath!!!), no smoking, and not even walking too far from home!!!

Specific dress codes - no short sleeves for either men or women, no pants for women etc.

And just about a thousand of other biblical laws which have to do with every aspect of daily life.

For us, most of these laws are outdated and we don't want to keep them. We drive on Shabbath, watch tv and cook. We don't keep strict kosher (though we don't have pork or seafood at home). We do celebrate the Jewish holidays - to keep in with tradition. We shape our way of life as modern Jews, even if it's not in accordance with biblical laws.

By the same token, we feel it's not necessary to circumsize. I know the rabbis also say that circumcision is less important then keeping kosher or keeping the shabbath. So, if we don't keep those, I see no reason to be ultra-religious when it comes to my son's penis 99.9% of Jewish boys in Israel are circumcized. For some reason even secular people choose to keep this one biblical law. They would eat pork on Yom Kippur but would still circumcize their sons. I think some of it comes out of ignorance and most of it our of habit. I hope this aspect of Israeli society will change with time.
post #36 of 67
Maybe because of the Bris(boy I know I mangled the spelling on that one!) they hold with it? Kind of a tradition that just happens to involve the tip of an infants penis. I'm not making light, just trying to understand in my odd way.
post #37 of 67
Thread Starter 
Well Brith (not sure how you spell that in English really) literally means circumcision in Hebrew So the two are one and the same for us.
post #38 of 67
Anne, are you concerned at all about whether the other boys will tease your son when they see his uncircumsized penis? Kids can be so cruel to each other -- especially as they are going into their teen years. Since almost all of his peers will be circumsized, I fear that they would tease him for being different.

That, in addition to whether the women he dates as he grows into adulthood would be wary of an uncircumsized man, would be my only concerns about him not having the procedure.
post #39 of 67
Anne, I don't think it is "necessary" either. But I'm not against it. (If that makes sense!)
post #40 of 67
I tend to believe in circumcision. I come from a Jewish family in the USA, however, my reasons are more medical. My mother was a nurse, and she always said that for health reasons, all boys should be circumsized. She also told me of horror stories of grown men who ended up having to be circumsized due to injury or infection.

However, I also asked a few men at work, if they were or if they weren't, and those who said they were, also said they wished they weren't.
post #41 of 67
I agree Anne, the Jewish friends I have believe the same way even though they do the circumcision, but they did get tired of the appliances one LOL. They were like 'what the hell, there weren't appliances back then!' so they are more into modernizing it also

lotsofcats, I hope to God there aren't any boys looking at his penis or my son's LOL!!!! Bunch of freaks! Okay I don't know what goes on in locker rooms, but my son ain't gonna be in one of those situations as long as I'm around LOL!
post #42 of 67
Thread Starter 
The social aspect sure was a major consideration.

First we researched the medical aspects and became convinced that circumcision was not only unecessary but also potentially dangerous. Then we looked into the religious aspect and found out it's not that big an offence and you can be both Jewish and not circumcized (just like you can be circumcized without being Jewish).

Then our main worry was about the social consequences of our boy/s being the only ones with whole penises. We joined the support group of parents who do not circumcise and went to a few meetings. We met parents of kids who are now in high school. One person there is a non circumcised Jew who is in his thirties and serves in the army in the rank of a major. Turns out from the group discussions that boys do not spend their days looking at each other penis's. None of the men could recall a single incident when other boys mesaured or otherwise focused on each other's penises. We don't have locker rooms or changing rooms here. You just sweat out and go home to have a shower There are about 100 families in the support group and not one child has experienced any problems socially for not being circusized. They did not hide the fact either - as small children they shared baths and pools in the nude with other children so parents and children around them knew and accepted it. If anything, parents expessed admiration for the decision and said that they wished they hadn't circumcised their boys. Oh, there was one incident involving toddlers. One small child, 3 or 4 years old, was asked by his friend why his penis looked like an elephant's trunk. To which his dad told him that there would come a day when he's older when this would be considered a compliment

Yes, children can be cruel and can pick on other children. In reponse to the concern raised, one of the non-circumcised boys in the group got up and said "I got picked on at school. Other kids used to make fun of me and I hated every minute there. They made fun of me because I'm short". Kids can pick on other kids because they are too short or too tall, too fat or too thin, speak in a certain accent or way, have red hair or wear glasses. I believe it's our job as parents to handle these situations as they come along and help our children deal with them. I don't think the solution lies in trying to make our children conform to every norm, especially when it comes to matters concerning their health and well being.

Just my $0.2
post #43 of 67
Originally posted by Anne
[b]Oh, there was one incident involving toddlers. One small child, 3 or 4 years old, was asked by his friend why his penis looked like an elephant's trunk.
LOL! That is soooo cute!

I believe it's our job as parents to handle these situations as they come along and help our children deal with them. I don't think the solution lies in trying to make our children conform to every norm, especially when it comes to matters concerning their health and well being.
I agree with you 100%. I admire the amount of thought and effort you have put into making this decision and support your decision completely.

Hey...and what woman wouldn't want a man equipped with an elephant's trunk?
post #44 of 67
Well said, Anne.
post #45 of 67
Dear Anne,

I see that you live in Israel and are Jewish, (but you are secular). My brother in law is a Brit and not circumcised. My sister decided not to have her son circimcised. Being educated on how to care for that and teaching the boy how to is important and if done there should be little health problems. However, with your people, religion and culture it tends to be required. It seems though that is not really a requirement and many Jews are choosing not to circumcise. I read an article in the Jerusalem Post about a father who choose not to circumcise his son.

It seems like you have researched the subject well and you know the society of Israel. If at a later date you son decides to follow Jewish tradition he can then get circumcised. You can cut it off but you can't put it back on.

I have been following the events in Israel and the Mideast for several years. Take care of youself. I will keep you and your family in my prayers. That is not the safest place to live at the moment.

post #46 of 67
I had it done to my kids, I don't see anything wrong with
it. If I ever have another boy then I'll have it done with
them also.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I just find it
icky looking when it's not done. So I guess you could
say I might be doing it for the wrong reasons (cosmetic)
but My DH is and he said he's happy it was done to him,
also for cosmetic reasons.
post #47 of 67
My son had it done and i honestly see nothing
wrong with it at all
post #48 of 67
Being catholic, I just called to my mom and asked why baby boys and circumcized. As a nurse, she said "for health issues". I guess it is alot easier to clean when there is no foreskin. She then asked if my boyfriend was circumsized. I tentatively replied "yes". Then she said, "Your father isn't. Grandma didn't believe in it."

TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

post #49 of 67
I had a friend that was circumcized at the age of 22. He was in so much pain and later told me that he wishes he had not done it. I feel like if you do have a boy cut then do it when they are a newborn and also ask for pain management for them. I mean you know that has got to hurt them
post #50 of 67
I had considered getting my son done when he was born, but the doctor told me that they don't do anything for pain managment on a newborn for circumcision. That sealed it for me- Reid had enough problems being born with breathing difficulties that I didn't want to heap anything else on him.
post #51 of 67
It's not all that common here(Wales), so I'm not really for or against, what I don't understand is why not being circumcized is disgusting (not having seen any circumcized men I don't have anything to compare non circumcized men to!). That makes me sound like such a little innocent
post #52 of 67
If I ever have a boy, I won't have him circumcised. My roommate is uncircumcised and I asked him why and he went on & on about how much better (healthier) it is that way. Both of his parents are physicians, but I don't know the difference health-wise. He's 33 and he's never had a problem with it (and he's not the cleanest of the litter either ).

I agree w/everyone saying it looks icky.

The main reason I won't get it done is b/c I don't see any reason to get it done. I mean, imagine how this started! Someone just looked at a baby boy's penis and decided to cut off the skin? That's insane! It started long ago before modern medicine so they can't say they did it for health reasons.
post #53 of 67
Just a few notes - penile cancer is not more common in uncircumcised males. Foreskin cancer is then again, taking away the foreskin in advance just because of this extremely rare form of cancer seemed too much for us. By the same token, you can consider taking off women's breasts as prevention of breast cancer. I know this is done in cases where a woman is in high risk of breast cancer, but I don't think that would be a good idea for the general public.
I sooooo agree with this paragraph. What gets me is when people have it done "just so junior has the same penis as his dad". During my childhood I don't recall seeing either my mums or my dad's "bits" (thankfully). Maybe our family wasn't normal, but I've never heard of fathers & sons getting their penises out to compare. Even if they did, dad just explains to junior about circumsision. It's no biggie.

As for hygene, if it's cleaned properly then there's no problem. I have an 8 month old daughter & she gets "smegma" on her genitals too. So, I have her circumsised incase she doesn't wash herself down there when she grows up?

Why fix something if it ain't broken. Sorry if I offend, but I really wish people would stop making decisions for others when it's not necessary. If a boy wants his foreskin removed later in life then he can arrange for it to be done. Why not let the owner of the foreskin make that choice for himself? I am really relieved that in Australia, it is becoming less & less popular.

For those of you who don't know, circumsision actually came about (for non religious reasons) because it was believed it would stop males from masturbating!!! Not very effective I might add.
post #54 of 67
I just read the results of a study which finds that uncircumsized men are something like 70 times more likely to be infected by the HIV virus than are those who have been circumsized.

This is just one study, but it examined thousands of men in a bunch of different African countries.

Let's hope that further research does not substantiate these results.
post #55 of 67
Non-circumcision leading to being more prone to HIV? Is this a medically proven fact or is it some kind of justification for uneccessary mutilation.

Just leave alone what nature put into place - unless you have some kind of religious imperrative - don't use it as an excuse for sloppy personal hygiene.
post #56 of 67
Non-circumcision leading to being more prone to HIV? Is this a medically proven fact or is it some kind of justification for uneccessary mutilation.
Here here. You took the words out of my mouth. I have a book on HIV & the "risks" relating to uncircumsised males & it states that the results are inconclusive. Regardless, if I have a son, I'll be telling him to use a condom when he wishes to become sexually active. It's just another excuse in my opinion.

As for the hygene argument, teach the boy to clean his penis, simple.

I think female genitalia looks pretty "icky" maybe I should go lop my daughter's off so she looks nice & neat down there
post #57 of 67
I clicked "Don't Know" - but that's because there was no "It Depends" option.

My first husband was not circumcised (he came from a country where it is not practiced); my second husband is circumcised.

For me, hygiene is the issue. I found the non-circumcised situation to be mostly disgusting, but all I had to do was say something I guess.

I don't know what I would do if I had a male child, and thank god I don't have to decide.

I do know that peer pressure is tremendous growing up, and although I'm all for being your own person (look at how I live my life!), I think I'd consider going with the "cultural norm" which varies from country to country. That's why I would choose "it depends."

I don't think you've made a "wrong" decision or anything - I just think that particularly living in Israel it is going to be a real issue for your boys at various points in their lives. I'm sure you'll raise them with the backbone and sense of individuality to deal with it.

BTW, just FYI - I didn't tell Gary any of the specifics (just said the subject came up on TCS), but I asked him how he'd have felt being an uncircumcised male in Israel - especially in the army. His eyes bugged out and he said - "I can't even imagine, it's beyond comprehension. It's something I don't want to think about and thank God I didn't have to deal with it." (He and his family are not religious. In fact, he was born in a Catholic hospital. He was circumcised as a newborn - it was the regular practice of the hospital.)
post #58 of 67
When my ex husband and I had my son we didnt have Circumsicion done because my ex didnt have it , I can tell you in the 12 years we were married he had many many problems , and my son has had many problems repeted infections I make sure my son is clean in my offline life I am a nurse , yet he still gets infections.

My ( new ) husband was Circumcised we have had long talks about this he has never had an infection ,and would prefer any birth sons of his to be Circumcised .

This topic really boils down to preference
post #59 of 67
Thread Starter 
Laurie, you may want to tell Gary things are a bit different in the IDF now. There are a lot of non-Jewish soldiers from the former USSR, so plenty of non-circumsizes men. We actually talked to someone who is not circumsized and is not a major in the IDF. He said he never ever had any problem with it.
post #60 of 67
Both of my boys are circumsized (and they would be mortified to know I had posted this)--luckily they cant read that well yet. My oldest had problems with the skin sticking for the first 3 months while it healed and they would have to numb it with a topical anesthetic and pull the skin away or it would cause problems when he got older. I had no problems at all with my youngest.

When I had my oldest I had to sign a paper that I wanted the procedure done with a local anesthetic (sp) because they dont routinely do anything to numb beforehand. I only found this out from my mom because she works in the Medical Records department of the hospital where I had him and she told me to MAKE SURE I GOT THE PAPER SIGNED..It was explained to me as a quick procedure, therefore it didnt warrant a numbing because it was over so fast. There have also been studies done that show babies who are circumsized without anesthetic are fussier, dont eat/nurse as well, and are overall more restless than babies that have anesthetic. Who can blame them?? Keep in mind this was almost 5 years ago, it could be different now. But if you are sending your baby to be circumsized and not asked whether you want it numbed or not, start asking questions.
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