Newbie with some questions and a unique kitten.

apokalypsepony · May 13, 2012

Hi, this is my first post here.

ihave been around cats my whole life (22) and have worked at shelters.

I breed goats so I know the "basics" of pregnancy, labor etc.

A couple weeks ago a pregnant long haired tabby showed up at ou door. We think she was dumped (large population of ferals and irresponsible people). She had seven kittens last Thursday. Two did not make it.
1. The first kitten died yesterday, it just died. No outward signs of illness. It had a good suck reflex , coordination and strong lungs. What could of happened? The other one was the runt, who sorta looked premature ( no fur on legs, tiny, poor suck reflex and uncoordinated), he died early this morning. I'm used to the smallest goats not making it, even with intervention (we tried bottles, still wasn't enough).
2. One of the kittens is HUGE, has polydactly on both front paws and a bent tail. It looks like the last half had been broken. I know the extra toes area mutation and that they tend to accrue in clusters (Hemingway Cats), are there other problems associated with it? What could of happened to it's tail?
3. How the heck to you tell male from female? Is it possible? I'm keeping the mutant and if it's male want to name him Ardashir ( lion warrior, Persian king who conquered the Parthian Empire.) I'm a history nut.

happykitty · May 13, 2012

Hard to tell about the tail, it could've been injured while in the mom's uterus or it may be a genetic kinked tail (fairly common). You will want to make sure the kittens are gaining weight, a kitchen scale is best. Sometimes kittens are born with something wrong in which we can't tell and they die suddenly. Sorry for your loss.

If you post pics of the kittens behinds I would be happy to tell you the sex.

Make sure to get mom spayed when kittens are around 7 weeks, they can go into heat at that time or even sooner.

orientalslave · May 13, 2012

Look at mum's behind. She has her anus and not far below her vaginal opening. In a male the urethra and anus are much further apart and the scrotum is in between. You can find pictures via Google but you will almost certainly get a lot of other 'pussy' photos you probably don't want to see...

StefanZ · May 13, 2012

Healthy kittens dying sort of suddenly is often pneumonia, by getting water in lungs while at birth.

The death looks often so, healthy kitten when you leave it, several hours later you find it died or going guickly downhill.

Experienced breeders do often slung all the kittens, routinely. Slunging forces the water out if it come in. Now this maneuwre is dangerous if you dont exacly know how to do it, and are very careful to do it properly every time, so we dont recommend it as a pure routine.

Happy Kitty gave you good answer on the tail, and other tips too.

May have broke during the birth or in uterus, esp as the kitten was big and surely had it extra tight. If genetically, such kittens are not used in breeding -(if a purebred). It is usually not painful for the kitten, but if breed on, the risk is very big it will be worse and worse for children, even with big defects on the backbone.

Polydactyli with a little luck doenst need to matter much for the cat. Some can even use the paws in a new way.

With unluck the polydactyli can also be skeletons faults in forearms...

so hope for the best, but look and see.

Last, but not least. You surely know goat milk is ok for cats? Can even be used as emergency kmr, if you dont have good kmr at hand.

As I understand it, it can also be used for dog puppies.

Not even mentioning many humans who dont manage cow milk, do manage goat milk.

Please tell us more about goat milk properties, esp compared with cow milk and sheep milk, if you can.

Welcome to our Forums!

Good luck! *vibes*

apokalypsepony · May 13, 2012

Hard to tell about the tail, it could've been injured while in the mom's uterus or it may be a genetic kinked tail (fairly common). You will want to make sure the kittens are gaining weight, a kitchen scale is best. Sometimes kittens are born with something wrong in which we can't tell and they die suddenly. Sorry for your loss.

If you post pics of the kittens behinds I would be happy to tell you the sex.

Make sure to get mom spayed when kittens are around 7 weeks, they can go into heat at that time or even sooner.

Were would you find a kitten scale? I was at Petsmart today and didn't see any scales in the cat section.

Here's the best pic I could get, the kitten wouldn't hold still.

Look at mum's behind. She has her anus and not far below her vaginal opening. In a male the urethra and anus are much further apart and the scrotum is in between. You can find pictures via Google but you will almost certainly get a lot of other 'pussy' photos you probably don't want to see...

I think its a boy, just want a second opinion from the experts. If you think your google searches are awkward, try typing in "large udder" or "buck with horns", it gets interesting.

Healthy kittens dying sort of suddenly is often pneumonia, by getting water in lungs while at birth.

The death looks often so, healthy kitten when you leave it, several hours later you find it died or going guickly downhill.

Experienced breeders do often slung all the kittens, routinely. Slunging forces the water out if it come in. Now this maneuwre is dangerous if you dont exacly know how to do it, and are very careful to do it properly every time, so we dont recommend it as a pure routine.

Happy Kitty gave you good answer on the tail, and other tips too.

May have broke during the birth or in uterus, esp as the kitten was big and surely had it extra tight. If genetically, such kittens are not used in breeding -(if a purebred).   It is usually not painful for the kitten, but if breed on, the risk is very big it will be worse and worse for children, even with big defects on the backbone.

Polydactyli with a little luck doenst need to matter much for the cat. Some can even use the paws in a new way.

With unluck the polydactyli can also be skeletons faults in forearms...

so hope for the best, but look and see.

Last, but not least. You surely know goat milk is ok for cats? Can even be used as emergency kmr, if you dont have good kmr at hand.

As I understand it, it can also be used for dog puppies.

Not even mentioning many humans who dont manage cow milk, do manage goat milk.

Please tell us more about goat milk properties, esp compared with cow milk and sheep milk, if you can.

Welcome to our Forums!

Good luck!   *vibes*

I would like to watch someone "slung" before I do it, I'm terrified I'd hurt it accidently.

I don't breed cats, so the kitten will not be intact for long. The soonest I can, it will be fixed.

What is kmr? I've heard of using goat's milk as a milk replacer in every species except Kangaroo (need something different about their milk, don't remember what).

Here's a good breakdown of the nutrients in goats milk vs. other milks.

http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/goatmilk-breakdown.html

And here's a why goats is better then cow's milk.

http://altmedangel.com/milkcomp.htm

I don't drink goats milk because it is too expensive in my area and I need my goats to give it all to their babies. Mine are not dairy breeds, so that don't make alot of milk. Also, I don't really know how to milk, I get the concept, just not the doing of it.

happykitty · May 13, 2012

Thanks for the goat milk info, I am one of those kids who grew up on goat milk as cow milk does not get along with me well. I wish I could afford to buy it more often, it is expensive here even with our local goat dairy farm. Kittens seem to do better on it versus cow milk formulas. KMR is a brand of kitten formula.

From what I can see in the pic it appears you do have a boy.

StefanZ · May 13, 2012

ApokalypsePony said:
Were would you find a kitten scale? I was at Petsmart today and didn't see any scales in the cat section.

What is kmr?

Try with the section for kitchen utensils. As it is the most common use of these scales. Try to find one scaled in grammes, or 1/10 of ounces. 1/3 ounces may be ok, but the more exact are better.

kmr is kitten mother milk replacement, and the brand KMR is the most wellknown of them.

The brand Hartz (and Bob Martin? in England) is common in food shops, but many feels not the very best, so use something else if you can.

I dont remember anyone complaining about goats milk.

orientalslave · May 13, 2012

Here in the UK there is a well-know chain of catalogue shops - they have a huge catalogue in the shops and you write the number on a slip of paper, go to the till, pay and then collect.

Anyway, they have a kitchen scales section wtih several suitable digital scales which weigh to 1g. Since you are looking for weight changes of 10g (less than 1/2 oz) weighing in grams is best in my view.

'Professional breeders slung kittens' - sorry no, not in my experience. Only if it has breathing problems at birth. Pneumonia is a common killer in hand-raised kittens or those supplemented early in life as they don't initially have a cough reflex.

In the UK we use Cimicat - I have no idea if Bob Martin does a kitten replacement milk, but I don't buy any Bob Martin products as a matter of principle.

Agree the kitten in the photo is a male. And ummm..... Not sure if it's the way the photo has come out, but a change of bedding looks overdue...

missymotus · May 14, 2012

OrientalSlave said:
Anyway, they have a kitchen scales section wtih several suitable digital scales which weigh to 1g. Since you are looking for weight changes of 10g (less than 1/2 oz) weighing in grams is best in my view.

'Professional breeders slung kittens' - sorry no, not in my experience. Only if it has breathing problems at birth.

Agree on both counts.

I have yet to swing a kitten at birth, and have also read it's not always the best way to clear the lungs.

apokalypsepony · May 14, 2012

OrientalSlave said:
Here in the UK there is a well-know chain of catalogue shops - they have a huge catalogue in the shops and you write the number on a slip of paper, go to the till, pay and then collect.

Anyway, they have a kitchen scales section wtih several suitable digital scales which weigh to 1g. Since you are looking for weight changes of 10g (less than 1/2 oz) weighing in grams is best in my view.

'Professional breeders slung kittens' - sorry no, not in my experience. Only if it has breathing problems at birth. Pneumonia is a common killer in hand-raised kittens or those supplemented early in life as they don't initially have a cough reflex.

In the UK we use Cimicat - I have no idea if Bob Martin does a kitten replacement milk, but I don't buy any Bob Martin products as a matter of principle.

Agree the kitten in the photo is a male. And ummm..... Not sure if it's the way the photo has come out, but a change of bedding looks overdue...

I was in the process of changing it when I took the pic. I was picking the kittens up to move them and decided to try and get a rear shot. And no, I was not picking them up by their tails, just lifted his tail to get the pic.

What is the page age to neuter? I keep hearing conflicting things, too young causes bone density/growth/urinary issues and too late causes spraying. Also, what age is best to get their first shots?

missymotus · May 14, 2012

I do shots at 8 & 12 weeks, with desexing & microchipping at 10-11 weeks.

speakhandsforme · May 14, 2012

I got my Boots' booster shots and deworming at 8 weeks. Those are the only shots he's ever had (he is strictly inside and my other cat is fully vaccinated).

I got him neutered at, I think, 14-16 weeks? He was just shy of four months. That's the earliest vets around here will do it.

catspaw66 · May 15, 2012

My Julie has a tail that looks like a fist at the end. She (and her two sisters Patches and Bright Eyes, both Rainbow Bridgers last year) were the result of littermate inbreeding. Kinked tails are also common in Siamese cats. You will often see one that looks like the cat is carrying a hockey stick.

orientalslave · May 15, 2012

catspaw66 said:
Kinked tails are also common in Siamese cats. You will often see one that looks like the cat is carrying a hockey stick.

Lots of cats of all breeds. and moggies, have kinks of various sizes, but it's no more common in Siamese than in other breeds. Possibly it used to be, or the legend about a Princess using a Siamese cat as a ring stand has made people think Siamese are different in a way they are not.

catspaw66 · May 15, 2012

It may be that I have been exposed to clusters of kinked-tail Siamese.

missymotus · May 15, 2012

catspaw66 said:
It may be that I have been exposed to clusters of kinked-tail Siamese.

What a shame that is then, most breeders of Siamese rarely see them these days.

Newbie with some questions and a unique kitten.

apokalypsepony

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happykitty

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orientalslave

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StefanZ

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apokalypsepony

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happykitty

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StefanZ

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orientalslave

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missymotus

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apokalypsepony

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missymotus

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speakhandsforme

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catspaw66

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orientalslave

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catspaw66

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missymotus

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