Advice for Transitioning Foods

I am interested in transitioning our 8yr old from a prescription vet food (Medi-cal Sensitivity VR-canned food) to a grain-free wet food, possibly Before Grain, Wellness or Blue Wilderness. The problem is that she does not react well to new foods (once we added small pieces of cooked rabbit and she had diarrhea a couple days later).

Here's a little background on her:

• She has hyperesthesia, which appears to be triggered by a food allergy of which we are currently going to determine hopefully within the next month (allergy tests) and process of elimination. It initially started when she was 2yrs old and she was consuming wellness chicken dry food. However, we've tried her on solely fish diets and it still triggered her hyperesthesia, so we are still not sure what's causing it (but we do know its food since the vet put her on a hydrolyzed prescription diet once and her hyperesthesia was completely eliminated)
• We have also managed to keep her hyperesthesia under control without using any medications or steroids (yay us!), however she is currently over-weight and I desperately want to put her on a slow diet once we find her a reasonable food brand (i.e low carbs)
• Lately her fur has not been in great shape and she has a bald patch on her belly which she has completely licked off to the point where she caused herself to bleed in certain areas (which is a huge indicator to me that this food is not working).
• A few weeks ago I introduced an Omega-3 supplement into her diet (Sardine & Herring Oil) which has helped her fur and belly tremendously (thank goodness). But I really want to get her off this poor food as well as get her on a grain-free rotated wet food diet, if possible.
• We had her on Forti-flora for a week when the rabbit caused her problems, however, I could tell it did not 100% agree with her since she had small bouts of hyperesthesia on it.

I have a feeling her digestive system is very VERY sensitive. So any advice on how to do this would be much appreciated =D

Violet, is there a reason you're not considering raw for her? For cats with food allergies and sensitivities, this often resolves the problem. Many ascribe a problem to various proteins - and in canned foods, new proteins CAN help. But as many people discover, (Carolina's Bugsy being the most recent), an allergy to a protein in canned or kibble doesn't necessarily translate to an allergy to a protein when fed raw. Commercial raw is far less processed and has far fewer additives to cause problems. Just a thought...

I haven't looked up Blue Wilderness canned recently. But B.G. has guar and carageenan, both are ingredients that can cause problems for cats with sensitivities. Nature's Variety Instinct canned doesn't have either, but according to info from NV, the food is higher carb. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/243260/merricks-before-grain-or-wellness-core

This spreadsheet was based on pricing and availability in the U.S., but it does list the carbs on a dry matter basis (based on the guaranteed analysis from the companies, which because those use minimums and maximums, can be off) and has links directly to the products so you can compare ingredients: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Canned-Raw-Table-1.pdf

Hi LDG,

Thanks for your response

Raw, hmm..that's a thought. Say I did decide to try raw, what kind of transition would she require? And I noticed there are many pre-made raw diets available. Are those just as good as making your own?

Yes B.G does contain carageenan and guar gum which supposedly can cause pH imbalances, I believe. Good you pointed that out, it didn't even occur to me.

I have read that depending on the protein source, commercial vs. human grade can affect cats differently. I was surprised that she couldn't tolerate cooked human-grade rabbit. And instead of having a bout of hyperesthesia which is what normally happens, she had diarrhea.. it was very odd  (which makes me think she may lack the proper bacteria in her intestine since she's been on prescription diets practically all her life).

I'll have to see which brands of pre-made raw are available where I am and get back to you.

Are you sure the diarrhea was from the rabbit? Was she eating any kibble at the time? Kibble does slow down digestion quite a bit (I don't have numbers offhand), but even with cooked/canned food, it (should) only take about two hours for the stomach to empty, and about 12 - 15 for the food to pass through her system. If it was a couple of days later, that means that food is passing through her system VEEEEEERY slowly. :dk: But if it's her gut flora, that 's easy to address with a probiotic before starting the transition.

When our holistic vet encouraged us to go raw, she recommended we start them all on probiotics ASAP, even though at the time we didn't know when we'd start the transition. It's good for them anyway, really. Hunting cats eat the stomach/intestines of their prey, which provides the "probiotics" they need. Our kitties eating food we feed them - whether kibble, canned, or raw - need us to supplement that equivalent. :nod: I think mine were on probiotics for 2 - 3 weeks before we began the transition, and none of them had problems unless it was with a new protein (the only one that caused a problem for one of the cats was beef). She advised we go to a health food store, ask for the best acidophilus probiotic (usually refrigerated), and give them a half human dose. I provide this daily, and will continue them on it.

And yes, you're right, the source of the protein can make a difference. :nod: Rather - the way it was raised. Carolina's Bugsy has a problem with regular supermarket (factory farmed) chicken. They're fed the same animal feed ingredients that are (well - can be) a problem in cat foods. But he does fine with organic chicken, or pastured/vegetarian raised chicken. :nod:

I don't know how much your kitty weighs, or how much she should weigh. But raw fed cats are typically fed 2% - 4% of their body weight. If they're mature and not indoor/outdoor, most of us that recently transitioned find that they need closer to the 2% (and most of us are actually feeding a little less than that!!!). So you might want to consider what commercial raw foods you can have delivered frozen as well. It REALLY depends upon how much canned food she eats. Most recommend 4 oz to 10 oz (118g - 295g) for an 8 - 10 pound cat (3.6kg - 4.5kg). So for a raw fed cat, that same range at 2% of the body weight in food would be just 2.6 oz - 3.2 oz (77g - 94g). (Yes, the amount of raw food you need to feed is STARKLY different, and you see the difference in the amount of waste they poop out - I mean - the amount of waste they don't poop out). If you want to be conservative to overestimate the cost of feeding her raw when comparing,at 4% (which is just really unlikely), she would need 5oz - 6.4oz (147g - 189oz). Sorry - you mention she's overweight so these numbers probably are completely off. But you get the idea, and I'm sure you can do the calculations yourself based on how much she weighs.

I just did a cost-comparison of how much it compares to feed commercial raw vs. canned in the U.S., and found that the cheapest foods to feed, because they require so much less on a daily basis, are commercial raw foods. Some of them even when shipped. And when compared to the higher-end grain-free stuff, most of the raw food, even when including the cost of shipping and handling, was still less expensive than a lot of options. And home made raw costs even less to feed. But that has a comfort level associated with it. I liked starting with a commercial raw - and then I wanted more control. :nod:

But there are some great raw food companies in Canada. One I wish shipped to the US! http://www.carnivora.ca/html/featured_products/fresh_frozen_products/index.cfm

I haven't looked at these foods, but here are more Canadian raw food companies:

http://www.pets4life.net/index.php/...ife-canine-feline-raw/feline-ferret-raw-food2
http://amorepetfoods.com/
http://www.3pnaturals.com/

And I don't know, but maybe the Canadian Association of Raw Pet Food Manufacturers would be helpful? http://www.carpfm.ca/

I really don't know how it works in Canada, but I'm sure any of the companies will be happy to help you understand their sourcing. Here in the U.S., the raw/frozen meat must be processed in a USDA facility, not a pet food facility, so it is by definition human grade. Don't have the USDA info to back this up (yet), but Nature's Variety (which frozen raw I'm pretty sure is also available in Canada) confirmed this.

As to the transition.... that REALLY depends upon the cat! :lol3: I started with commercial raw (Nature's Variety, which is guaranteed pathogen free). I mixed a small amount into their canned food. When they didn't reject it or get sick from it, I slowly started increasing the amount. I then just started offering them slices of meat of stuff I brought home from the supermarket. At that point, they recognized raw as food. :lol3: I'm three months into this, and I'm now feeding home made whole prey model (boneless - I supplement calcium). Seven of mine made the switch - four of them with no problem, three with some coaxing required. Spooky is... off on her own planet. Many of us with multiple cats are finding there always seems to be that one cat! They're doing well, and I'm comfortable with this. Several people are just supplementing their canned food with raw, and kitties are doing great. Some of Lauren (Feralvr's) cats, Mrsgreenjeens kitties, and Carolina's Lucky proved (or are proving) to be more stubborn about the switch. But it in no way, shape or form is something that needs to be accomplished quickly. In fact - I see no reason just to start offering some raw as a treat, and see what happens (once she's been on a probiotic for a week or so).

But there's just no way to know until you try. It is definitely more than just a cost-based decision though. :nod: I am fairly confident raw would really help her sensitivities though (if not solve the problem), especially if you have seen improvements from diet changes. :nod: Raw definitely doesn't cure everything. But allergies and food sensitivities just happens to be one of the biggies that raw food can provide improvement (almost immediately) in many cats.

I REALLY hope I don't sound like I'm pushing. I used to argue against raw feeding, so I definitely understand all the fears, concerns, and questions. And it isn't without risk. But neither is feeding ANY commercial pet food, really, given recalls and problems with contamination - as evidenced by Diamond's current dog food salmonella contamination problem.

Thanks for the advice. Sorry its taken me so long to respond, I'm writing exams right now and haven't had as much time as I would like to browse through raw diets.

Here are the following brands that are available to me by store.

1. Healthy paws - http://www.tryhealthypaws.com/product_list?pclass=Feline&ptype=Complete+Diets
2. Pets4Life - http://www.pets4life.net/
3. Natures Variety Instinct Raw
4. Urban Carnivore - w.carnivora.ca/html/featured_products/fresh_frozen_products/index.cfm
5. The Honest Kitchen "Prowl" (dehydrated) - http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/prowl/

I wouldn't know where to begin when it comes to choosing a raw food, TBH. I figure the fewer the fruits and veggies the better, so I may need your advice for a little longer. I noticed that some of them contain very few ingredients and don't have any added vitamins or minerals (or taurine). Should this worry me at all?

I'm not 100% sure the rabbit caused her diarrhea since we just brought home 2 cats from the SPCA and it is always possible that she got some of their food. However, if that was the case her typical symptoms are a twitchy back end (her HE attacks). She rarely ever gets diarrhea. I'm wondering if maybe the protein source was too rich for her, since she's never really been on a high protein diet, except once and she developed fatty liver (that's another story in itself - probably due to feeding amounts/not protein). And she developed the diarrhea about 2 days afterwards actually. I would like to get her on probiotic supplement, I'll have to do some research on those as well since Fortiflora helped but also irritated her HE.

She is currrently around 17.5 Ibs and we feed her about a 1- 3/4 of a can of VR and we are slowly trying to reduce it to a 1.5. She also lives to eat so I don't think she'll have a problem with the raw if we slowly introduce it and it would be really great if she's able to eat many kinds/flavours (chicken, duck, turkey), since she's never had that luxury

Right now price is not an issue for me atm, since my parents pay for her food (hehe), but depending on where I am in the next couple of years cost may be an issue so its awesome to have your price comparison chart available to me.

In case you want to see my babygurl, here is her cat page: http://www.thecatsite.com/a/black-bear-cat. I haven't made one for my other two kitties yet, but once my exams are done I definitely will!

Laurie, I greatly appreciate all your help and by no means did I ever feel as though you were pushing me. Your advice has been tremendously useful and you know ALOT about cat nutrition, and I myself have learned alot from you in this post and from reading many other threads. Thanks again for your insight!

Thanks, but I'm still learning about cat nutrition. :lol3:

As to the fatty liver, I'm really sorry! But that would definitely be a problem with amount, pre-disposition, and weight of your cat - not protein. Protein, in fact, has nothing to do with it. Here's an excellent overview of FL: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_hepatic_lipidosis.html

I'll take a look at those foods. But yes, you want the one with the best meat/bone/organ profile, and the least amount of veggies/other stuff. If buying commercial, I do like at least taurine added, though that is easy to do on your own. It's water soluble, so you have to work REALLY hard to give too much. It's quite safe to supplement on your own. And even better, it seems to have no taste, so you can sprinkle it on the food, and they'll eat it. I have cats that will NOT eat food if they think it's got "stuff" in it - and they eat the taurine sprinkled on there, no problem.

OK. The first two look similar - they have no added supplements, because they're adding fruits and veggies to make them "complete and balanced" as per AAFCO recommendations. Not ideal, and without contacting the companies, I have no idea how much "other stuff" is in there or what the meat/bone/organ mix is. Nature's Variety I already know is 95% meat/bone/organs and 5% other stuff, and they supplement taurine. I started with the NV rabbit, and that went well, until a couple got constipated. That's the problem - they target 15% bone, which is just too much. That food needs to be "cut" with real meat. In fact, that's often the case with whole ground prey diets. The natural prey of cats - mice, birds, rabbits, lizards, bugs - are very low in fat, and have a lower bone-to-meat ratio that things like chicken, pork, and lamb.

Personally, I prefer the whole ground option - Carnivora. But those are not supplemented with anything. The problem with that is that a) the bone content for anything except rabbit and quail will likely be too high, and b) taurine oxidizes easily, so ground meat really ought to be supplemented with at least taurine. When I switched from Nature's Variety to whole ground prey, I added this supplement: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/alnutrin_for_meat.html. I dethawed the mix, added the supplement (instructions on the package) with the directed water, packaged it up into meal-sized portions, and refroze it. Now - the Carinvora is sold in patties, not per pound. But that's probably the route I'd take. I haven't tried Quail on my cats yet, but given her sensitivity, I'd probably try Quail and Rabbit first. I know we think she might have had a problem with the rabbit, but if you start small, and gradually increase the amounts, you may not have that problem. :dk: Cats seem to universally love lamb, so that's another option.

And, of course, you can just try one package of something - NV rabbit (which has pork fat in it, which seems to make it very appealing to cats), or whatever you're most comfortable starting with - and just offer bites here and there as a treat, and see what happens. :dk: You can also just slice off some raw meat from whatever's being made for dinner or whatever's in the fridge. Or just go buy a chicken breast (organic if possible), slice off a small slice - and see if she likes it. You can feed up to 15% of their diet without being complete without risk of nutritional deficiency. So no need to make any big decisions right off the bat either. Start small and see how it goes!

As to the probiotic - fortiflora is a terrible one. :lol3: It has a lot of junk in it that bother sensitive cats. It gave our Chumley (FIV+) wicked diarrhea. As I said - and this is what I recommend - go to a local health food store, ask for their best acidophilus supplement (it should be refrigerated). You're looking to get 10 billion active cultures in her. ALL of them will have some other cultures in there besides acidophilus - the one I use also has bifidus. But the shorter the list, the better. You can also order Proviable-DC for cats.

I'd start her on the probiotic, and give her a week or so on it before offering her raw to try.

You mentioned chicken and fish but have you tried duck or venison for protein?  My cat eats the canned green pea & duck cans and also the venison & green pea cans, both grain-free, by Natural Balance and does really well on them.  When we initially put him on these L.I.D. formulas he didn’t have an issue with the change-over.  Just wanted to mention those options as they have really helped my 9-year-old baby boy.

Thanks for your replies.

I haven't changed anything just yet, because I want to take her into the vet to get a check-up, weigh in and discuss the possibility of allergy testing. Once thats done, I am going to pick her up some probiotics (Laurie -do they sell these at petstores at all?) and get her on those for about 2 weeks and then slowly start adding small amounts of raw to her diet.

@JenniferS - that is a possibility if the raw doesn't work. The only reason I'd choose them second is that I'm not a fan of the ingredients, and if I'm going to go all out, I want her on something that will result in her thriving (high protein and very few carbs - more natural carnivorous diet) and that can incorporate variety (if she can handle raw protein of course). Natural Balance is an alright food, but its not a food I am comfortable feeding her for the rest of her life without rotation. I know that you can rotate between the venison, duck and salmon, however I am not keen on "liver" being there in every meal, "salmon oil" and "yucca". And I know this may be me being picky, but I've spent a lot of time researching ingredients and want this kitty on the best because she's gone through so much already  , but I greatly appreciate this idea since i haven't yet decided if I am going to put her on a 100% raw diet yet and natural balance limited ingredient may be a brand i could mix with, if she can handle it.

This is a complete side note, but OMG she is doing 1000% better on her omega-3 supplement. The other day she pawed a few pieces of kibble from our other kitties bowl ate them and was totally FINE and I've seen her react after eating this food...I'm starting to think that cat food in general does not have enough to support our cats nervous systems (i.e. omega 3s, Vitamin B's) because since the addition of these supplements her back twitchy-ness (when you pet her) has been greatly reduced and her fur is literally like silk   I am soooo HAPPY!

That is GREAT news about the Omega3 and B12!!!

Just an FYI on the allergy testing... our vet said it wasn't worth the expense given the results aren't reliable. It'll be interesting to hear your vet's take on it. :nod: I just know that the herbs the holistic vet prescribed Chum did him a world of good - and he doesn't need those now that he's on raw.