Finally! The First 100% STARCH-FREE/Grain Free Kibble is Launched!

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carolina

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I just read the review again and that is what it says, 10% refined sugars. This is no better than starch. Digestible carbohydrates is the issue, and they are playing games with the words. Again, There are no games of words - they never said "NO CARBS - They stand TRUE to their claim - No Grains, No Starch, 90% Meat" What game of words? Their carbs, come from their less than 10% of their ingredients that comprise of fibers and fruits - not hard to see by reading the label either.
And the "mistruth" about the percentage was said, by the company's representative, to two people who asked, according to this review. Apparently by the same spokesperson, evidently a problematic situation, I agree. But that might be a PERSON, not Wysong. Now - do we know if this is a new employee? Do we know if this person was misinformed? What do we know here? I will call Wysong myself to find out. Not That I need it, because again - not hard to figure out.
Robin
Here is the label - Where is the misleading here?

http://www.wysong.net/products/documents/labels/epigen-90-2lb.pdf
 

bastetservant

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The food may very well be no starch. But that hardly matters because the food still has digestible carbs that are just as bad as starch. It's like human food labels that says that a product is "cholesterol free" when it is something made entirely of plant products, which never have cholesterol anyway. It's deliberately deceiving, and banking on the general public's lack of nutrition knowledge. Even though 10% bad carbs is low, the way they are manipulating the facts is disturbing.

Whether it was one person from the company who gave out the false information, or two people, or a new representative is all irrelevant, to me. It shows a customer service quality control problem, and it makes me think they are deceptive. And this is on top of the "no starch" marketing ploy.

They don't seem honest to me, and I'm going to stay away from this company's products. There are other choices that are at least as good for cats.


Robin
 

ldg

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It has apples, blueberries, beet pulp (many with dogs question this ingredient, but for cats it is a good source of prebiotics according to sharky), and plums. Of course it is going to have some fiber and sugars in it because of these ingredients. But it is a 90% meat based kibble. Most commercial raw foods are 95% meat/bones/organs and 5% "other stuff" (similar ingredients to this kibble) in order to meet AAFCO "complete and balanced" guidelines - which, interestingly, for Wysong, this food does.

Now, clearly the bulk of the protein comes from chicken meal, not the organic chicken at the top of the list. What I don't know is whether Wysong's chicken meal is the same quality of chicken meal used in most other kibble. :dk:

I'm going to have to say that with a 90% meat base, this is the closest non-raw species-appropriate kibble one can feed (that I'm aware of).

Robin, I'd love it if you could provide examples of dry foods that are comparable.
 

bastetservant

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As far as other quality dry foods, just follow the links on the site of the review linked above.

Of course that site may be all wet. You have to decide who to trust, and that is not easy.

I'm not saying this is a not a good kibble. But I have problems with the company for a number of reasons. I would rather trust my cats' safety to another brand.

Everyone has to make their own judgments regarding these things. I just felt I had to point out that the review referenced had some issues with this food and company. People in this thread, from comments made, seemed to not have read it.

I am not an advocate of any food or way of feeding cats. I really have nothing more to say on this subject. I believe I have expressed myself clearly, and I don't need to keep repeating myself.

Robin
 

ldg

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Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to upset of offend you because of your opinion. But thanks for suggesting using the link. I read the review but didn't look at the rest of the page. That my be helpful. Thanks.
 

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This is an interesting dry food. Probably one of the first of its kind. I personally choose not to feed dry due to the lack of moisture, rendering & heating which denatures the protein content, high use of preservatives and the un-neccessary carbs which you can avoid feeding in a wet or raw diet, but you can't in a dry food. Dry food is also linked with many health problems so no matter what the claims, I still don't think its worth it, but for those who do, good on you for presenting this option.

http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-dry-food-is-bad-for-cats-and-dogs/

@BastetServant, I looked up Young Again and it looks pretty good aside from three ingredients that I dislike: Pork protein concentrate, soya oil, and fish oil.

- Pork protein concentrate: Cats can barely digest pork which is why its not typically found in cat food. I am also guessing its used to amp up the amount of protein on the package, which if it comes from the pork, they are actually not absorbing it and its just a marketing ploy IMHO.

- Soya oil: Ooo this is bad. Soy in North America is genetically modified and is linked in humans with obesity and heart disease. It is also filled with pesticides and cats are unable to properly digest it. If you look in many human processed foods, you'll find this ingredient used because its a cheap oil, not because its healthy.

- Fish oil: This is not horrible, since cats drastically need Omega-3's except it doesn't state which fish is used. This is very sneaky way of saying we are likely using fish with high toxic loads and oils that have gone rancid so if you can, avoid this trick.

Also if you cat is trying to lose weight, he/she should be eating exclusively wet = higher protein, moisture and few to no carbs. As the saying goes for humans "Carbs are your enemy!"

From my own personal experience, throw away the dry and buy your cat a good omega-3 supplement, since its one the few nutrients cat foods are lacking in considerably!!
 

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Can you show studies validating what you just said?
Look, I am no kibble proponent.... But imho, information is missing here for this statement to be made. The high protein theory is old, and the same thought process can be used for raw as well- and it is. Today studies show that cats actually need more protein as they age.e, not less. What you need to look at is the phosphorous content, and by the information here you do not have that. If you look at their label, you will notice that they recommend to feed this food in rotation with raw, and or wet, so that the cat get plenty of moisture, which the kibble can not supply. At least they do that, while others don't.
Actually what I said was: "High protein combined with very low moisture and (oddly) very low fat sounds pretty hard on the Kidneys to me.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like using the words "sounds to me" in a sentence clearly implies an opinion, rather than a statement of fact.   


However, if you would like me to explain my opinion...

if you search "kidneys and protein" you will get roughly 11 million results from organizations like The Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and dozens of Kidney oriented medical websites,

the vast majority of which state that the amount of protein consumed is directly related to the amount of stress on the kidneys.

Since it is an established fact that increased water consumption greatly reduces the stress on the kidneys, it "sounds logical to me" (indicates an opinion)  


to think that a combination of high protein and very low moisture and fat might indeed be... pretty hard on the Kidneys.  
 
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carolina

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Actually what I said was: "High protein combined with very low moisture and (oddly) very low fat sounds pretty hard on the Kidneys to me.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like using the words "sounds to me" in a sentence clearly implies an opinion, rather than a statement of fact.    :dk:

However, if you would like me to explain my opinion...
if you search "kidneys and protein" you will get roughly 11 million results from organizations like The Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and dozens of Kidney oriented medical websites,
the vast majority of which state that the amount of protein consumed is directly related to the amount of stress on the kidneys.
Since it is an established fact that increased water consumption greatly reduces the stress on the kidneys, it "sounds logical to me" (indicates an opinion)  :catguy:
to think that a combination of high protein and very low moisture and fat might indeed be... pretty hard on the Kidneys.  



 
Ok...... Fair enough..... Just pointing that cats and humans do have different needs though..... And seems to me that those studies, at least the sources mentioned above are human related. Cats metabolize protein differently and have different needs than humans. Later studies have shown that older cats need more protein than younger cats to sustain muscle mass, actually.
You really need to look at the phosphorous content, which my point was, is not listed in here.
The Epigen line is actually listed as a low phosphorous, and has been listed as safe to CRF cats. I am not sure about the 90, as it is newer, but the 60 has, and is listed.
So, before assuming that because it is dry and high protein, it is unsafe, we need to realize that we are dealing with cats, #1, who have a far greater need for protein than humans, and that the real issue here requires further looking than given on the thread - phosphorous content.

Besides that, Like you, I am not a kibble proponent.... I do think that for any CRF cat, older cat, or any cat, for that matter, the best thing is to stay away from it..... BUT - with that stated......... I rather see a see a kibble that resembles a species appropriate diet in the market, than one that is full of junk.....
My opinion, FWIW.
 
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carolina

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Look, this kibble isn't perfect.... no kibble is, Wysong, the Manufacturer, themselves, recognize that kibbles and perfection is just not a possibility - that is not what this thread is trying to prove...... In their own words, and frankly, I don't see other manufacturers being this honest :dk:

WYSONG EPIGEN 90[emoji]8482[/emoji] http://www.wysongepigen.net/epigen90/epigen90.pdf
The Evolution of Kibble Stops Here[emoji]8482[/emoji]
The movement toward/return to biologically appropriate foods for pets has been slow. This is due in large part to what occurred decades ago, which was a decided movement in the opposite direction. The course of pet foods was most distinctly set in motion in the 1950's with the introduction of dry, extruded pet food, a.k.a. "kibble" (see our Pet Food Timeline: www.wysongepigen.net/timeline.php).

Many forms of pet food have come and gone over the years, and there are a number of alternative offerings currently in the marketplace, but to this day, due to convenience and marketing, kibble remains the undisputed king. In truth, kibble marks the greatest misstep in the history of animal nutrition. You see, from the beginning kibble was not something that was engineered to be nutritious and biologically appropriate for the animal, something that bore a close resemblance to their natural diet. It was not -- as should have been the case -- form following from function (nutrition). Rather, the goal was to create something that was efficient and profit-bearing for the manufacturer, and convenient for the pet caretaker.

Kibble fit (and still fits) that bill to a T. Without examining each step along the way, kibble has gone from being something that didn't even approximate being biologically appropriate, to, in recent times, something that does a slightly better job of it.

Consider the following:
 The natural canine/feline diet is raw. Kibble is highly processed (cooked).
 The natural canine/feline diet contains no starch. Since its inception, and prior to the release of Epigen[emoji]8482[/emoji], kibble has been mainly starch ingredients (poly-sugars).
 The natural canine/feline diet consists of meats, organs, bone, tendons, etc. -- nearly all elements of the prey creature. Kibbles contain these ingredients at low levels.
 The canine/feline dental structure and jaw mechanisms are designed for tearing and ripping prey. Kibble requires crunching and chewing.
 The natural canine/feline diet is varied. Kibble diets are most often fed exclusively. [emoji]169[/emoji] 2010, Wysong Corporation

So what must be understood is that kibble was a flawed enterprise from the start. It still is. It will forever be. This is what so many of the more dedicated, caring and studied members of the pet caretaker community simply fail to understand. They want the perfect kibble (an impossibility). They want a kibble that contains, or lacks this or that ingredient. They want X% protein, and Y% fat. Minutia is the focus. They incorrectly view "nutritional" adjustments to an inherently, substantially flawed food as the key to their beloved pet’s health. The big picture is missed. And this is no coincidence -- minutia is just what pet food companies have directed pet caretakers' focus to since the beginning.

There are dollars to be made by directing consumer attention away from the obvious problems with feeding a starch-based kibble meal after meal. From our perspective, the question is not how we can convince you that we've created the perfect kibble, but rather how we can best deal with the kibble problem.1 Now that kibble is the universally accepted pet food form, what can we do about it? How can we improve and advance it in substantial and meaningful ways? How can we make that which is inherently unnatural more natural? Epigen 90[emoji]8482[/emoji] is an honest attempt at just that -- righting, as much as possible, the wrong. Fitting the square peg (kibble) in the round hole (biologically appropriate nutrition). With Epigen 90[emoji]8482[/emoji] we've accomplished this to the
greatest extent possible.

Is it perfect? No. Are there inherent flaws with kibble that simply cannot be overcome? Yes.
One thing is for sure though -- The Evolution of Kibble Stops Here[emoji]8482[/emoji].
Epigen 90[emoji]8482[/emoji]

1. Wysong has released numerous kibble alternatives -- our TNT[emoji]8482[/emoji] line of raw products and canned diets, for example. One solution to the problem is, of course, to move away from kibble. But millions of pet caretakers won't consider it because of habit and convenience. Multi-billion dollar companies have a stake in this not happening. Kibble is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Wysong considers it a responsibility to improve kibble to the greatest extent possible. That's what Epigen is all about.

[emoji]169[/emoji] 2010, Wysong Corporation
 

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I have learned SO very much in just the last six month's on feeding cat's and dog's. I was like the millions of other people out there that just TRUST that kibbles are what cat's should eat. It is everywhere being sold, and everyone buys it and feeds it. SO I must do the same thing - that is just what the pet's must eat - kibbles!!!!!! So I thought... :lol3: It is extremely convenient, simple and easy to feed. Most people don't even know that cat's are "obligate carnivores" and most probably don't even know what that means. Most also go by what their vet tells them to feed the new little kitten or the new adopted adult cat - Hill's and Science Diet. They think that since the VET told them to feed it then that is the word of God :lol3: It is a money making venture for manufacturer's of kibbles and vet's alike.
Three of my six cat's (Perla, Perkins and Presley - feral kittens now socialized) will NOT come out for the petsitter to be fed. I need to leave a dry food out all day and night for those three to eat. Wysong Epigen just fit's the bill perfectly for me since I am now feeding mostly raw to my cat's. :clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
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sevenwonders

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Ok...... Fair enough..... we need to realize that we are dealing with cats, #1, who have a far greater need for protein than humans, and that the real issue here requires further looking than given on the thread - phosphorous content.
Carolina, I can certainly appreciate your points.   


It has been a few years since we had a CRF Kitty, and when we did have two of them,

we prepared all of their meals at home, extending their Happy / Healthy time with us by several years.

The first thing I did was go against Dr's orders and eliminate the Dry food completely

rather than switch them to SD and RC prescription dry  


Thanks for posting that info from Wysong's website  


- that truly is refreshing and encouraging to see them openly discussing the negative aspects of dry foods.

In my case, I have felt relieved lately to find Innova Prime, which has no fish meal

to use as between meal snacks. (It does have lots of peas though.)

Personally, I really don't feed enough dry to be overly concerned,

but having lost a couple of Kitties years ago to cancer and kidney disease, 

I tend to indulge in a lot of research and careful consideration before trying any "new" (to us) food.

I'd have to do some more research on the (phosphorus / protein / moisture / fat) situation

before I could comfortably let them try Epigen.

Again, it is not the high protein in and of itself that concerns me (I feed By Nature 95% and Evo cans.)

Rather, it is the lack of moisture and fat. Any idea why they would formulate such a relatively low Fat Content?

Perhaps I'll send Wysong an e-mail one day with my concerns and ask them to share their thoughts in more detail.

Again, thanks for posting all of the info - always good to hear that there are SOME Pet Food companies out there

that seem to be sincerely trying to produce better quality foods and formulas for our Kitties!   
 
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carolina

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Carolina, I can certainly appreciate your points.    :)

It has been a few years since we had a CRF Kitty, and when we did have two of them,
we prepared all of their meals at home, extending their Happy / Healthy time with us by several years.
The first thing I did was go against Dr's orders and eliminate the Dry food completely
rather than switch them to SD and RC prescription dry   :frusty:

Thanks for posting that info from Wysong's website   :nod:
- that truly is refreshing and encouraging to see them openly discussing the negative aspects of dry foods.

In my case, I have felt relieved lately to find Innova Prime, which has no fish meal
to use as between meal snacks. (It does have lots of peas though.)

Personally, I really don't feed enough dry to be overly concerned,
but having lost a couple of Kitties years ago to cancer and kidney disease, 
I tend to indulge in a lot of research and careful consideration before trying any "new" (to us) food.
I'd have to do some more research on the (phosphorus / protein / moisture / fat) situation
before I could comfortably let them try Epigen.

Again, it is not the high protein in and of itself that concerns me (I feed By Nature 95% and Evo cans.)
Rather, it is the lack of moisture and fat. Any idea why they would formulate such a relatively low Fat Content?
Perhaps I'll send Wysong an e-mail one day with my concerns and ask them to share their thoughts in more detail.

Again, thanks for posting all of the info - always good to hear that there are SOME Pet Food companies out there
that seem to be sincerely trying to produce better quality foods and formulas for our Kitties!    :rub:
Yep..... I get it :nod: Here in my house I have two on 100% raw/frankerprey, and one fighting a good fight to stay on kibbles :frusty: But I fight harder :lol3: And she eats a good amount of raw..... One day we will get there - definitely I want my three on raw :nod:
I am all about moisture..... I totally see the difference in between how much water Lucky (the one who eats kibbles) and the others on raw drink (they don't!).... and it makes me sad :(.......

The fat content is a question that might be worthy of a phone call to them...... :wavey:
 
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karen dsupin

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I was just looking at this product on Chewy and I can't believe I ran across your post.  I'm so glad that I read it because now, I will buy it.

Thank you,

Karen D
 

sweetpea24

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You are correct in that protein is hard on the kidneys. A high protein diet requires hydration plus a higher amount t of fat to help dilute the waste products and flush them through the kidneys and to help digest the protein. Cats require a higher amount of animal protein and fat. And thus more moisture in their diet. I had an article written by a veterinary nutritionist that explained why cats need animal protein vs. Plant protein and carbohydrates but that article seems to evade me. It was from a veterinary conference that one of the vet's where I work went to. Basically, it said that cats derive their energy easier from animal protein. Not that they couldn't digest plant protein or carbs but that those initiated a release of certain enzymes from the pancreas to assist in the digestion, making it harder for the cat to derive energy from these sources.

Humans are omnivores so they can process plant and animal protein whereas a cat is an obligate carnivore that requires animal protein. Ubfortunatlely many cats end up in renal failure because they do not get the adequate amount of moisture in their diets. Phosphorous is a key ingredient to restrict but there are other factors to consider when dealing with renal failure patients. Senior cats should have higher protein but with lots of moisture and fat. If one feeds dry food I would suggest adding water to the food and a water fountain at least.
 
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