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Trayvon Martin - Page 3

post #61 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post

Well, at least he was arrested...Now it's all up to the lawyers....and the jury... but at least the police did their job finally.

I really think that's just what most people in this situation wanted: a real, substantial investigation into what happened. Not necessarily a conviction. Just an investigation.

It's Florida, my hopes aren't too high. wink.gif

For me, I just can't get past the part where Zimmerman got out of his car. Why would he do that? Why would anyone leave the safety of their car to follow someone if they aren't a police man?

Honestly, I think Zimmerman is most likely a good person. He's probably the type of guy that gets too going ho and is a legend in his own mind. So that night, he just got carried away with his illusions of grandeur, bought into his own mental hype about what a bada** he was and it went too far too fast for him. Martin was more than a guy like Zimmerman could handle but in his mind he could take on the toughest guy in prison. I can see Zimmerman in prison thinking "how did this happen?". One day he's a productive member of society, in an instant he becomes a symbol of what racial profiling looks like. I feel sorry for what his family is going through.
post #62 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post


I really think that's just what most people in this situation wanted: a real, substantial investigation into what happened. Not necessarily a conviction. Just an investigation.



Yes, I agree.

 

post #63 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAFM View Post

It's Florida, my hopes aren't too high. wink.gif
For me, I just can't get past the part where Zimmerman got out of his car. Why would he do that? Why would anyone leave the safety of their car to follow someone if they aren't a police man?
Honestly, I think Zimmerman is most likely a good person. He's probably the type of guy that gets too going ho and is a legend in his own mind. So that night, he just got carried away with his illusions of grandeur, bought into his own mental hype about what a bada** he was and it went too far too fast for him. Martin was more than a guy like Zimmerman could handle but in his mind he could take on the toughest guy in prison. I can see Zimmerman in prison thinking "how did this happen?". One day he's a productive member of society, in an instant he becomes a symbol of what racial profiling looks like. I feel sorry for what his family is going through.

IMHO Zimmerman is not this pure and good, productive member of society. He has a past of domestic violence, arrest for battery (an officer), etc. If you look at his past, I don't see the calm mannered guy - I see him as an explosive brat that has no business carrying a gun and putting himself into a neighborhood watch position - my opinion only. http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/george-zimmerman-was-arrested-before-trayvon-martin-case-previously-accused-of-domestic-violence
Bottom line is, Trayvon was buying Skittles and going back home..... he was doing nothing but that. Oh yeah - maybe it was a crime talking to his girlfriend on the phone.
Had Zimmerman NOT followed him, NOT dismissed the orders from the 911 operator, Trayvon would still be alive. That to me, is the bottom line.
Even if Trayvon attacked him, I would too.... If I was unarmed, and this huge man came after me with a gun out of no where, in the middle of the night.... Heck yeah, you betcha I would fight with all I had to defend myself so I could escape alive.
Zimmerman was bigger, older, and with a gun. Trayvon, Even - and I am saying EVEN IF they found he fought..... HE was defending himself - who wouldn't? Who wouldn't fight for their lives?
Zimmerman had no business to follow him. He had already contacted the police - had he left Trayvon alone, he would be alive.
post #64 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post
If I was unarmed, and this huge man came after me with a gun out of no where, in the middle of the night.... Heck yeah, you betcha I would fight with all I had to defend myself so I could escape alive.
Zimmerman was bigger, older, and with a gun. Trayvon, Even - and I am saying EVEN IF they found he fought..... HE was defending himself - who wouldn't? Who wouldn't fight for their lives?

Just a a fact check.  Trayvon was as much as 7 inches taller than Zimmerman, and they both weighed about 170. 

 

Other than that, I agree that getting out of his car was a mistake, but we don't know why, at this point.  The only witness (other than Zimmerman) saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him.  And just as Trayvon's previous legal and disciplinary problems (such as being caught with burglar tools and stolen jewelry) are not admissible in court, neither will any past offenses from Zimmerman.

 


 

 

post #65 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post

Just a a fact check.  Trayvon was as much as 7 inches taller than Zimmerman, and they both weighed about 170. 

Other than that, I agree that getting out of his car was a mistake, but we don't know why, at this point.  The only witness (other than Zimmerman) saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him.  And just as Trayvon's previous legal and disciplinary problems (such as being caught with burglar tools and stolen jewelry) are not admissible in court, neither will any past offenses from Zimmerman.



 

Fine - Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman killed Trayvon, who was buying skittles and walking home from the store. Trayvon had the right (IF you are saying is correct) to defend himself from a person with a gun - you would done the same ANYONE would fight for their lives.
It is easy to fault the victim, isn't it? when the victim is dead and no longer here to defend himself?
post #66 of 165
Carolina-I had no idea about zimmerman's past, thank you for enlightening me. So for those that would say Trayvon was not a good kid anyway, well, evidently Zimmerman wasn't either.

This whole thing is just a hot mess.
post #67 of 165
Mr Blanch-I get that u are playing devil's advocate. But what would be a good reason for Zimmerman to get out of his car? Personally speaking, I'm in a car, let's say, someone that I'm following turns around and yells at me, threatens me and starts walking toward my car...do I get out or do I put the car in drive and leave? I leave. I can't think of one single reason I would EVER get out of the car, unles someone grabbed me and pulled me from it. Even then, on a quiet residential street, I couldn't be taken by surprise on that, I'd see it coming and leave.
post #68 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAFM View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post

Well, at least he was arrested...Now it's all up to the lawyers....and the jury... but at least the police did their job finally.

I really think that's just what most people in this situation wanted: a real, substantial investigation into what happened. Not necessarily a conviction. Just an investigation.

It's Florida, my hopes aren't too high. wink.gif

Ha! You've got that right. But as the feds don't seem to have any real jurisdiction here, we have to take what we can get, I guess.
post #69 of 165

There's a good chance Trayvon never knew Zimmerman had a gun, until Zimmerman used it.  There are about 2 1/2 minutes unaccounted for, from the time Zimmerman said he was breaking off following Trayvon to meet the police at the mail boxes, to the time of the shooting.  As I said, my guess is that that will be the crux of the investigation and court case.

 

A good discussion of the case, and Florida's law:

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=5&prgDate=4-12-2012

post #70 of 165

I just love the arm chair lawyers out there who are judging.  YOU don't know the facts and are basing YOUR opinion on what her heard from the media.  The same media who has doctored what was heard.

 

How about passing judgment once the facts in a court of law are in?  Novel idea....really.

post #71 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by zohdee View Post


How about passing judgment once the facts in a court of law are in?  Novel idea....really.
Yeah...... Novel Idea IMHO would be to have this arrest done in the beginning and so the court procedures would start taking place... That is what should have happened, but didn't, thus the reason for all this revolt.
Sure people will judge based on the media - there isn't anything else out there - no court, as it should have, nothing else but the media. So yeah, until this happens on court, people will judge; and even then poeple will speculate. That's the nature of well... having a TV, newspaper, and being part of the World IMHO.
post #72 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zohdee View Post


How about passing judgment once the facts in a court of law are in?  Novel idea....really.
Yeah...... Novel Idea IMHO would be to have this arrest done in the beginning and so the court procedures would start taking place... That is what should have happened, but didn't, thus the reason for all this revolt.
Sure people will judge based on the media - there isn't anything else out there - no court, as it should have, nothing else but the media. So yeah, until this happens on court, people will judge; and even then poeple will speculate. That's the nature of well... having a TV, newspaper, and being part of the World IMHO.

But see, that's the whole issue. The original police declined to arrest him because he claimed Stand Your Ground, which provides immunity from arrest if the police judge the suspect to have used "justifiable force." Proof here, section 776.032, subsection 1.

(Yes, he was originally taken in for questioning, but that is not the same as an arrest.)

However, the local prosecutor has jurisdiction over who the police arrest and can overrule them. And the regional prosecutor can overrule the local prosecutor and on up the line, which is just what Ms. Corey did. So now that he's finally in custody, the real investigation can begin. This is a good thing.
post #73 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post

But see, that's the whole issue. The original police declined to arrest him because he claimed Stand Your Ground, which provides immunity from arrest if the police judge the suspect to have used "justifiable force." Proof here, section 776.032, subsection 1.
(Yes, he was originally taken in for questioning, but that is not the same as an arrest.)
However, the local prosecutor has jurisdiction over who the police arrest and can overrule them. And the regional prosecutor can overrule the local prosecutor and on up the line, which is just what Ms. Corey did. So now that he's finally in custody, the real investigation can begin. This is a good thing.

I agree this is a very good thing......
post #74 of 165

Based on...what your HEARD in the media or by what you KNOW?

post #75 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by zohdee View Post

Based on...what your HEARD in the media or by what you KNOW?
Based on what I know..... IMHO It is great that this case is going to court, finally the Justice System will take over and he will go through a trial.... Clear? Or I can not form an opinion in the matter? Sorry.... But I will have one anyways laughing02.gif
post #76 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zohdee View Post

Based on...what your HEARD in the media or by what you KNOW?
Based on what I know..... IMHO It is great that this case is going to court, finally the Justice System will take over and he will go through a trial.... Clear? Or I can not form an opinion in the matter? Sorry.... But I will have one anyways laughing02.gif

Not necessarily a trial, my guess is if he and his lawyer have half a brain between them they'll plea bargain out. Of course that depends on the deal they offer him but I think they'll almost certainly offer a lesser charge since the original was murder II...

and zohdee, I already said before I don't necessarily want a conviction, just an investigation. When someone gets shot dead, the person who shot them and the circumstances should at least be investigated, even if it doesn't result in a conviction, even if they claim self-defense. And you may not like the national news media but unless you live in the area (and I do), they are most people's only source of info about a case.
post #77 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post
If I was unarmed, and this huge man came after me with a gun out of no where, in the middle of the night.... Heck yeah, you betcha I would fight with all I had to defend myself so I could escape alive.
Zimmerman was bigger, older, and with a gun. Trayvon, Even - and I am saying EVEN IF they found he fought..... HE was defending himself - who wouldn't? Who wouldn't fight for their lives?

Just a a fact check.  Trayvon was as much as 7 inches taller than Zimmerman, and they both weighed about 170. 

 

Other than that, I agree that getting out of his car was a mistake, but we don't know why, at this point.  The only witness (other than Zimmerman) saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him.  And just as Trayvon's previous legal and disciplinary problems (such as being caught with burglar tools and stolen jewelry) are not admissible in court, neither will any past offenses from Zimmerman.

 


 

 



 

If we're doing a fact check, why is his school identifying a screwdriver as "burglar tools" and jewelry that no one seems to have lost as "stolen"? I have a watch that I don't wear, so I suppose in the opinion of his school, it's "stolen".  And I have several of the same "burglar tools" in my car at any given time...2 on each motorcycle as well.   It wasn't long ago on this very forum that a suspension for a white ROTC cadet or boyscout, IIRC, for having a knife was being strongly condemned as bogus; but now a screwdriver is the preferred tool of burglars.  I find it a bit confusing how that works.  


Edited by Skippymjp - 4/14/12 at 5:29am
post #78 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post


Not necessarily a trial, my guess is if he and his lawyer have half a brain between them they'll plea bargain out. Of course that depends on the deal they offer him but I think they'll almost certainly offer a lesser charge since the original was murder II...


I don't think the prosecutors will offer a plea bargain, and I wonder if they would accept it if it was requested.  At this point, would it be more dangerous to have a trial and find Zimmerman innocent or only guilty of some lesser charge, or let him plea deal that lesser charge now?

 

And, like that famous TV detective, I have one puzzling question.  Trayvon was, I understand, visiting relatives in the gated community when he went to the store to buy the famous Skittles and tea.  Why were those relatives not looking for him, or were they? 

 

As to the jewelry and screwdriver ("burglar tools") -- Once jewelry is stolen, it's almost impossible to identify, even for the owner.  And maybe the screwdriver was called a "burglar tool" because it is the burglar tool of choice for car breakers?  Anyone caught with one will say that he just has it to fix something on his car or bicycle.  And, as I said, it won't come up in any trial, anyway.

post #79 of 165

The father went to bed thinking the boy had gone to a movie and turned his phone off.  It was early the next morning that he reported the boy missing.

 

Given the story in this article, does a person have a right to shoot someone when he creates the situation where his life is in danger? Is property more important than a human life?

post #80 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post


Not necessarily a trial, my guess is if he and his lawyer have half a brain between them they'll plea bargain out. Of course that depends on the deal they offer him but I think they'll almost certainly offer a lesser charge since the original was murder II...


I don't think the prosecutors will offer a plea bargain, and I wonder if they would accept it if it was requested.  At this point, would it be more dangerous to have a trial and find Zimmerman innocent or only guilty of some lesser charge, or let him plea deal that lesser charge now?

 

And, like that famous TV detective, I have one puzzling question.  Trayvon was, I understand, visiting relatives in the gated community when he went to the store to buy the famous Skittles and tea.  Why were those relatives not looking for him, or were they? 

 

As to the jewelry and screwdriver ("burglar tools") -- Once jewelry is stolen, it's almost impossible to identify, even for the owner.  And maybe the screwdriver was called a "burglar tool" because it is the burglar tool of choice for car breakers?  Anyone caught with one will say that he just has it to fix something on his car or bicycle.  And, as I said, it won't come up in any trial, anyway.



But that explanation makes it even less clear.  If jewelry is almost impossible to identify, then how did the school determine it was stolen?  And how did they determine that his screwdriver was used to steal it?  Or should we all surrender our screwdrivers?  


 

post #81 of 165
I love my jewelry. I have some very nice pieces and I can assure you, if someone stole them, I can ID them when found. Expensive high-end jewelry is easy to ID. Most likely the pieces are insured and to insure them you must have it appraised. During an appraisal the piece is mapped, detailed photos taken and all identifying marks noted. If jewelry has been stolen and reported as such, it should be very easy to ID.
post #82 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by speakhandsforme View Post

Not necessarily a trial, my guess is if he and his lawyer have half a brain between them they'll plea bargain out. Of course that depends on the deal they offer him but I think they'll almost certainly offer a lesser charge since the original was murder II...


I don't think the prosecutors will offer a plea bargain, and I wonder if they would accept it if it was requested.  At this point, would it be more dangerous to have a trial and find Zimmerman innocent or only guilty of some lesser charge, or let him plea deal that lesser charge now?


You don't? I do. Prosecutors do have an ethical obligation not to charge someone with a crime that they can't prove happened, but I think the state attorney's office would certainly like to avoid the extremely high publicity that will certainly occur if this trial goes forward, especially since it's coming hot off the heels of the whole Casey Anthony debacle. (For the record, they offered her a plea bargain too.) No, I think they'll offer him a plea bargain, with some sort of manslaughter charge. If he agrees, he'll get at least 25 years (look up the whole 10-20-LIFE thing), but not life -- otherwise what would be the point of the plea bargain?


And if it goes to trial, the jury could certainly find him guilty of manslaughter, and that would result in the same minimum sentence. That, IMO, is a real danger for Mr. Zimmerman here, while the murder charge is not so much of a danger. So if they do offer him manslaughter, I believe he'd be wise to take it, and avoid the massive headache and spectacle his trial will inevitably cause, especially since Florida allows cameras in courtrooms. But, like you said, the plea bargain deal would be entirely up to him and his attorney, and they may not decide to take one if it's offered. Who knows.

I freely admit I do not have all the facts of what occurred that evening. No one does at this point, except Mr. Zimmerman, and he may of course present them as he pleases. This is just my educated guess.

Whatever occurs, I hope justice prevails -- whether that means a conviction or an acquittal.
post #83 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by zohdee View Post

I find it odd that no charges are being brought against the New Black Panthers for a hate crime in asking for a bounty on Zimmerman's capture alive or dead.



It's not a hate crime and neither were posting the Zimmerman's addresses. They may be crimes but not hate crimes. Hate crimes are those committed because of race, sexuality or other protected status. Offering a bounty to capture someone because you believe that he's committed murder is not a hate crime. Posting addresses to someone you believe have committed murder or his family is not a hate crime either.

post #84 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
 Mr. Martin had a very spotty record, and some aspects seem to indicate that he wasn't the face of innocence that some have been portraying him as.  http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

 

 

 



What does it matter what Trayvon's record was? Does that in any way excuse Zimmerman's actions that night? It doesn't matter if Martin was a corner crack dealer who spend his weekends robbing gas stations or if he was a straight A student who collected stamps. He could have been either. Zimmerman didn't know him. He didn't decide to single Trayvon out because he was a pot smoker who had been caught with supposed burglary tools, because he didn't know about any of those things. He singled him out only because he was a young, black male. That's it. In his mind young black males are likely to be criminals and therefore suspicious. All he knew about this kid was what he looked like and that's all he had to make his determination on. So what Trayvon had done in his life is completely irrelevant. This would have been just as outrageous if Trayvon was a crack pushing gas station robber because on the night he was shot he was walking home from the store, talking on the phone with his girlfriend, dressed like most 17-year olds. Had he been a straight laced stamp collector he would have looked and acted the same that night and for all Zimmerman knew that's what he was. But he didn't know. He just assumed just because the kid was a black teenager.

And the argument that Zimmerman was right in being suspicious of Martin because there had been burglaries in the area is also nonsense for the same reason. Zimmerman didn't know him and had no reason to believe that he was a burglar more than anyone else. He only leaped to the conclusion that it was a possibility because Trayvon was black, most likely because of his general views of black people. I bet that had the perpetrators of the area burglaries been 25-year old white men he would not have been following other 25-year old white men around thinking they were suspicious. But, oddly enough, Zimmerman and people like him believe it's both sensible and justified to suspect one black guy because of what some other black guys have done. Isn't that what you're saying Mr. Blanche?

 

 

post #85 of 165

Do you honestly believe that if the races were reversed and a black man killed a 17 year old white boy and the KKK had a bounty on the black man...nothing would be done????

post #86 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy'smom View PostI bet that had the perpetrators of the area burglaries been 25-year old white men he would not have been following other 25-year old white men around thinking they were suspicious. But, oddly enough, Zimmerman and people like him believe it's both sensible and justified to suspect one black guy because of what some other black guys have done. Isn't that what you're saying Mr. Blanche?

 

 


A neighborhood watch is there to look out for unusual or suspicous activity, and an unknown person in the area fits that description exactly.  Look back at the messages, and see who is assuming what. 

 

Body searching grandmothers and 4-year-olds getting on airplanes doesn't make any sense.  Zimmerman may well have made some assumptions, but they weren't necessarily unjustified. 

 

It should be an interesting trial, if it goes that far.  Keep in mind that by Florida's law, a judge has to make a ruling on it before it can go forward.  Check out the link to the NPR "Talk of the Nation" program I posted up above.

 

post #87 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post



 

Quote:
But that explanation makes it even less clear.  If jewelry is almost impossible to identify, then how did the school determine it was stolen?  And how did they determine that his screwdriver was used to steal it?  Or should we all surrender our screwdrivers?  

http://forums.liveleak.com/showthread.php?t=91584

This site says wedding bands were part of the jewelry. That would lead most people to believe the jewelry was stolen.

 

Quote:

“Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.”

“Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.”

“’Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,’ he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/miami-dade-police-department-trayvon-martin-not-tied-to-jewelry-theft/

BUT this site said the jewelry was not tied to any thefts.

 

Quote:

Women‘s jewelry and a watch found in Trayvon Martin’s school backpack last fall could not be tied to any reported thefts, the Miami-Dade Police Department said Tuesday.

So who knows. I don't think it has anything to do with the case though.

 

It's nice th have you back Skippy. :)

 

post #88 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy'smom View Post



 

Quote:
He singled him out only because he was a young, black male.

 

 

Do we really know that? Isn't it possible the same set of events would have happened if he were white?

 

 

 

 

 



 

post #89 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zohdee View Post

Do you honestly believe that if the races were reversed and a black man killed a 17 year old white boy and the KKK had a bounty on the black man...nothing would be done????



RE: race reversal,consider how many white women who went missing and were heavily investigated and publicized, compared to black women in the same situation.

 

post #90 of 165

I am not talking about going missing.  I am talking about a group of people offering a bounty for someone alive or dead.  Would the KKK be prosecuted for hate crimes? 

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