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Trayvon Martin

post #1 of 165
Thread Starter 

This case is all over the news here and has been since the shooting. I'm pretty sure it's countrywide. A self proclaimed neighborhood watch captain shoots and kills a 17 year old African-American boy, claiming self-defense.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-12/justice/justice_florida-teen-shot_1_martin-family-gated-community-dispatcher?_s=PM:JUSTICE

 

What do you think? Does Florida's Stand your Ground Law need to be re-examined?

http://www.bradenton.com/2012/03/21/3952663/trayvon-martin-case-puts-focus.html

 

Was this a hate crime? Should Zimmerman's gun rights be revoked? http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Group-wants-George-Zimmerman-s-gun-rights-revoked/-/1637132/9652160/-/eporys/-/

 

I find this all appalling. I can't believe he hasn't even been charged and is walking around with his gun. Sad.

 

 

post #2 of 165
It's not just nationwide news, the case is being reported worldwide.
US justice department to investigate Trayvon Martin killing
Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny
Tod eines Teenagers in Florida:Die Schande von Sanford
Tod eines Teenagers in Florida "Was machst du hier?"
Fall Trayvon Martin Das Opfer ist schwarz, der Täter ein weißer Latino

The law goes too far, IMO, since it doesn't stop at allowing somebody to protect themselves on or in their own property, and in many of those cases there's room for doubt about whether people shot in self-defense. Does anybody remember the Japanese exchange student who was shot in Baton Rouge in 1992 after going to the wrong house while looking for a Halloween party?
Acquittal in Doorstep Killing of Japanese Student

In the Martin case, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow/confront Martin. How can that be construed as self-defense? Zimmerman allegedly had a record of targeting black males, too.
Trayvon Martin’s Killing: Was the Motive Self-Defense or Racism?
Quote:
Martin was in the gated community with his father as they visited the home of family friends. He had gone to a nearby 7-11 for snacks and was on his way back to the house when he was spotted by Zimmerman, who called police to report a “real suspicious guy.” He told the dispatcher that Martin “looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something.” He described Martin as having his hand on his waistband, carrying an object, and coming towards him. “And he’s a black male…Something’s wrong with him…These a**holes, they always get away.”
...
But the Miami Herald reported Zimmerman had called police 46 times between Jan 1 and the night of the shooting, and that his particular focus on his patrol watch was black males
Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/19/trayvon-martins-killing-was-the-motive-self-defense-or-racism/#ixzz1pmU3DuPb

Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops
post #3 of 165
Thread Starter 

I can't believe Zimmerman is still walking around free, legally carrying his gun. The feds need to arrest him now, IMO.

post #4 of 165
Now this is interesting: 'Stand your ground': A killer defense?
Quote:
Even now, a circuit judge in Hillsborough County is awaiting written arguments before deciding whether a Valrico man should stand trial for killing his neighbor in an argument over a skateboarder. A Tampa tow company owner was recently convicted of manslaughter after initially mounting a "stand your ground'' defense.

If you go by Florida Department of Law Enforcement numbers, justifiable homicide rates have tripled since the law went into effect in late 2005.

"It's crazy. It's insanity,'' said Willie Meggs, the state attorney in Tallahassee who has encountered the defense several times in recent years. "Stand your ground is the dumbest law ever put on the books.''

Shot to Death in Florida
Quote:
Self-defense is being invoked in everything from gang shootings to backyard disputes between neighbors, with prosecutors left to disprove the shooters’ claims.
post #5 of 165

The NRA is pushing all 50 states to have the same type of "stand your ground" laws.  Currently 24 already have it. 

 

It is the concealed gun law that contributed to Trayvon Martin's death. The NRA is pushing Congress to pass the "National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011"  where a state has to accept concealed weapons permits from any state even those that are less restrictive.  Some states like Arizona don't even require permits to carry concealed weapons.   If Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, then the confrontation may not have happened or would not have so easily resulted in the death of this young man. The NRA is also pushing states to make their concealed gun laws less restrictive.  More states are allowing concealed weapons in bars and restaurants where alcohol is served.  Many business owners are concerned about their liability.

 

Furthermore, the NRA doesn't want any statistics to be gathered on incidents involving concealed weapons because it believes anyone who wants a gun is going to be a law-abiding citizen.  The Violence Policy Center has been keeping track of news items involving concealed weapons permit owners.  Confrontations that could have been resolved result in death. 

 

Some of the incidents reported:

 

After the gunman shot Arizona U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords, another concealed weapons holder almost made it worse.

Quote:
The event almost took an even more tragic turn when Joe Zamudio, another concealed weapons holder, came on the scene and almost shot one of the men who had disarmed Loughner in a case of mistaken identity. Zamudio described on Fox & Friends how he had come out of a Walgreens and ran to the shooting site with his handgun’s safety off, his hand on the gun ready to draw. As he rounded the corner, Zamudio saw one of the men who had disarmed Loughner holding the Glock pistol, stating, “And that’s who I at first thought was the shooter. I told him to ‘Drop it, drop it!’” In response to the interviewer’s observation that, “Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess,” Zamudio responded, “I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter], holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast....I was really lucky.” Zamudio added in a later interview, “I could have easily done the wrong thing and hurt a lot of people.”

 

 

Quote:
On September 15, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Solomon Davis allegedly shot and killed Timothy Lemont Prackett at the Steeple chase Apartments in West Memphis. According to news reports, witnesses said that Prackett was in an argument with several people over parking spaces. After the shooting, Prackett ran and then collapsed.

 

Quote:
n April 28, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Robert G.Webster and his wife were returning home from a visit to the doctor when he got into a confrontation with neighbor and fellow concealed handgun permit holder Charles E. Ingram, 57. According to witnesses, as the argument escalated Webster, age 63, walked out of his yard with a gun at his side and then raised it. Ingram, who had also left his yard, standing in the sidewalk and street, raised his gun as Webster approached. Both men fired at approximately the same time. Webster died at the scene. Ingram died less than a month later from wounds inflicted by Webster. Detectives investigating the shooting concluded that both men might have faced criminal charges had they lived.

 

Gunfight at the local bar

Quote:
On June 30, 2011, concealed handgun permit holder Vishna Beepot, 26, got into an argument with Junior Lodge, 35, at the South Rock Lounge Bar and Grill in Lauderdale Lakes. When Beepot pulled out a gun, an unnamed security guard at the bar told him to drop his weapon. When Beepot refused, the security guard pulled his own weapon and both men fired. Ten people were shot and injured in the crossfire and Lodge and Beepot were killed. Broward Sheriff Al Lamberti told the press that given the small size of the bar and the number of customers in it at the time, “It’s a wonder more people didn’t die.” Beepot’s mother told the press that her son carried his gun for selfprotection. The security guard, who detectives stated may have fired his gun in selfdefense,
was unhurt.

 

 

Then there are the negligence cases.  Someone with a permit should have some understanding how to properly handle a gun.

Quote:
On October 19, 2009, Latrecia Levine was shot and killed at The Allied Veterans Cyber Center Internet Café when a man’s handgun fell out of his waistband, hit
the floor and discharged, striking her in the back. The shooter, who had a concealed handgun permit, apparently had ignored a sign on the door that included firearms among
the items prohibited from inside the business. Additional signs inside the café said that no firearms were allowed on the property. No charges were immediately filed in the case,
but the police characterized it as an “active ongoing investigation.”

 

 

Quote:
On May 21, 2011, concealed handgun permit holder Gary Tussey took his family to dinner at Cheddars Restaurant in Ashland, Kentucky. After the family had eaten, Gary Tussey stayed inside the restaurant to pay the bill while his wife Brandy took the couple’s two children out to the family’s SUV. While Brandy Tussey was putting their infant child into a safety seat in the back of the vehicle, two-year-old Addison climbed into the front seat. According to law enforcement, “While the mother was
tending to the infant, she heard a ‘pop’ and looked up and saw her daughter slumped over the passenger seat.” The toddler had found a handgun that Gary Tussey had left in the vehicle’s center console and fatally shot herself in the face. The case was brought before a grand jury but no criminal liability was found.

 

post #6 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by katachtig View Post

Furthermore, the NRA doesn't want any statistics to be gathered on incidents involving concealed weapons because it believes anyone who wants a gun is going to be a law-abiding citizen.  The Violence Policy Center has been keeping track of news items involving concealed weapons permit owners.  Confrontations that could have been resolved result in death. 
From that site:
Quote:
In 1996 at a Dallas, Texas, press conference, Tanya Metaksa, then the executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, promised, "As we get more information about right-to-carry, our point is made again and again...People who get permits in states which have fair right-to-carry laws are law-abiding, upstanding community leaders who merely seek to exercise their right to self-defense."

So these "law-abiding, upstanding community leaders" are responsbile for the deaths of 11 law enforcement officers, 31 murder-suicides and 20 mass shootings, not to mention 391 others? It sounds like the NRA is getting more and more like PETA every day.
post #7 of 165

I'm not gonna touch the gun laws, since I believe in a law abiding, mentally stable citizens right to carry. However, when a person has a history of racial profiling, repeated nonsense calls to the police, and similar unstable behavior-I don't understand what the police are thinking allowing him to STILL HAVE A GUN, never mind the ridiculous fact that this guy is walking free!

 

My kids and myself are big fans of the popular "Hoodie" sweatshirts. I love them, they are snuggly, and I wear the hood when it's cold. You know-when my ears need protection from the cold. My kids (mostly my sons) wear the hood alot of the time. It's comfortable. They are not making a statement, they are not "gangsta" and they are certainly not going around robbing people, or their homes. It's a hood on a sweatshirt. The kid was carrying skittles. For all that is good and Holy in this world, this child should still be alive and Zimmerman should have been disarmed long ago. He is said to have profiled African American males, and I don't understand why that is-Zimmerman, while having a Jewish last name, is of Hispanic descent. Of all the people in the world who know how much it sucks to be profiled-it's gotta be the hispanic community. I see no explanation for his behavior, I see no reason he is free, and I certainly cannot fathom why he is still ARMED. 

 

It's a sad world when a 17 year old child cannot wear a hood on his head when it's chilly or as a fashion statement, and gets killed for carrying....candy. 

post #8 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqchick View Post

 

 

It's a sad world when a 17 year old child cannot wear a hood on his head when it's chilly or as a fashion statement, and gets killed for carrying....candy. 


Or on a rainy night, like it was the night he was killed.
 

 

post #9 of 165

I agree there's some racial profiling going on here.  But maybe not where we think.  What race is Mr. Zimmerman?

 

There is a good reason most neighborhood watch groups prohibit carrying anything besides a radio, a flashlight, and a phone.

 

But there is some really strange stuff going on around this.  The Black Panthers offering $1,000,000 for Mr. Zimmerman, dead or alive?  No current photos of Mr. Martin, only those when he was a cute 13-year-old?  Celebrities tweeting Mr. Zimmerman's address? 

 

In addition, I think activist groups need to be very careful about demanding the arrest of some citizen.  What goes around, comes around.  And, in fact, Mr. Zimmerman was arrested.  He was just released after questioning.

 

This is a very messy case, and I suspect it may not ultimately shake out as some think it will, right now.  Mr. Martin had a very spotty record, and some aspects seem to indicate that he wasn't the face of innocence that some have been portraying him as.  http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

 

By the way, I know a number of truck stops and convenience stores that have signs up prohibiting wearing a hoodie with the hood up inside the building, and they have security there to enforce it.  Come in with a hoodie and you'll be asked to put the hood down. Refuse, and you'll be forcibly escorted outside.  Resist, and you'll be arrested. 

 

As to the "stand your ground" law, that's not the problem.  It almost certainly didn't apply in this case, if it's true that Mr. Zimmerman followed Mr. Martin after being told not to by the 911 operator.

 

 

post #10 of 165

I can't say enough how angry this case has made me. HOW is it possible that Zimmerman as not charged with murder???? This is beyond ridicuclous. People are tried with far less evidence against them every single day....

 

Why was Zimmerman never charged, and why isn't it up to a jury to decide if the shooting was really self defense??? I don't care what the "stay your ground" law says, there is simply no  proof to say that he shot Trayvon in self defense!!! It should be up to the jury....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post

  What race is Mr. Zimmerman?

 

 He is multi racial, I believe the article I read on him said he was half hispanic from Peru, though I don't see how that has much to do with anything. From what I read about him, he sounds like a psycho who has control issues.  I read that he tried to go into law enforcement, but failed at that, and as part of the neighborhood watch he called 911 46 times complaining about small things that were going on around the neighborhood, which sounds to me like needs mental help.

 

Of course the media would not fail to mention Trayvon having been caught with marijuana...come on!! He was just a kid. I know plenty of adults who could be arrested for smoking pot, but of course the police are more lenient on good standing citizens who have families, good jobs, and no traffic tickets let alone outstanding warrants. Those kinds of people are allowed to smoke pot on occasion. They may have a bag of marijuana on the passanger seat while getting pulled over, and the officer may not even see it.....A teenager with a hoodie, on the other hand, and especially if he's black, would be treated like a criminal before even having done anything wrong...

 

Teenagers do stupid things, period, but then they grow up, realize that it was stupid....It's not because they will grow up to become criminals, it's because it's a teenager thing to be rebellious, to find anything forbidden appealing..Trayvon was 17, the majority of 17 year olds are no different, and I wasn't 17 too long ago myself to forget what it was like ...marijuana,  writing "W.T.F." on a door...whatever it's just a phase!!! But Trayvon was not given the chance to grow up and get out of the teenager phase :( This is what is most heart wrenching...

 

 

 


Edited by ut0pia - 3/31/12 at 8:47am
post #11 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post

I agree there's some racial profiling going on here.  But maybe not where we think.  What race is Mr. Zimmerman?

 

There is a good reason most neighborhood watch groups prohibit carrying anything besides a radio, a flashlight, and a phone.

 

But there is some really strange stuff going on around this.  The Black Panthers offering $1,000,000 for Mr. Zimmerman, dead or alive?  No current photos of Mr. Martin, only those when he was a cute 13-year-old?  Celebrities tweeting Mr. Zimmerman's address? 

 

In addition, I think activist groups need to be very careful about demanding the arrest of some citizen.  What goes around, comes around.  And, in fact, Mr. Zimmerman was arrested.  He was just released after questioning.

 

This is a very messy case, and I suspect it may not ultimately shake out as some think it will, right now.  Mr. Martin had a very spotty record, and some aspects seem to indicate that he wasn't the face of innocence that some have been portraying him as.  http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

 

By the way, I know a number of truck stops and convenience stores that have signs up prohibiting wearing a hoodie with the hood up inside the building, and they have security there to enforce it.  Come in with a hoodie and you'll be asked to put the hood down. Refuse, and you'll be forcibly escorted outside.  Resist, and you'll be arrested. 

 

As to the "stand your ground" law, that's not the problem.  It almost certainly didn't apply in this case, if it's true that Mr. Zimmerman followed Mr. Martin after being told not to by the 911 operator.

 

 

The more I read, the more confused I get. Zimmerman WAS taken into police custody, then released. Why don't they show a recent picture of the deceased? It's because he was close to 6 foot and far less cute. (As a matter of fact, he looked We are hearing conflicting reports from various eye witnesses about what happened. 

 

Apart from the actual case at hand. The Black Panthers need to be disbanded as they are seemingly a self appointed justice dispenser and that is unacceptable. Spike Lee posting an innocent couples address on twitter then encouraging action...he needs to go to jail. Roseanne Barr posted Zimmerman's PARENTS address (the real one) and did the same before being forced to take it down. The justice system needs to work, not idiots thinking they have any right to do this to people. 
 

 

post #12 of 165
I don't know if you guys heard this, but as I listened to the audio of the 911 call, at one point right after Zimmerman says he is heading towards the back entrance, he says to himself "F- ing coons"

I think that makes clear whether or not he's racist....
post #13 of 165

I'm not sure if it is racism or a stereotyped impression that an unknown young black man in a hoodie is a gansta.  This image is so strongly prevalent due to the rappers and their videos.

 

However, the "Stand your ground" law is a centerpiece of the problems with this case.  Though the law's authors say that this case is excluded, it is how the police applied it that makes it integral to the discussion.  Also, the basic philosophy of the law troubles me.  In how many of those additional "justifiable" homicides, did putting a gun in a volatile situation actually escalate it to the point of someone being shot?  Since one person is dead, how can the facts be determined when only one point of view is there?   Did the person with the gun make reasonable efforts to de-escalate the situation or avoid it?  Or did they "Stand their ground" regardless of the opportunities to walk away?  The NRA says that arming all law abiding citizens will make crime go down.  I don't believe so given the fact that the NRA is also against any sort of background checks or criteria for gun ownership.  Just because a man beats his wife doesn't mean that he shouldn't have a gun (so when he shoots his ex-wife and her family, oh well, guess he shouldn't have had a gun).  Someone with a history of mental illness can get one too (he killed himself, oh well, no one could have guessed that even though he was very depressed).  There is no requirement for education, properly handling a gun or properly handling a conflict situation. 

 

When are we going to have a situation where an untrained person kills the victim and not the perpetrator because he misunderstood the situation?

 

The NRA is totally against gathering statistics to show if its theories on gun ownership are correct.  They will block any effort to study if there are people who shouldn't have guns. Instead we are supposed to take them at their word that gun ownership is a right for everyone including those who are a potential danger to innocent lives.

 

ETA: I also want to add that the vigilantism of Roseanne Barr and Spike Lee tweeting the Zimmermans' address is very reprehensible.  Efforts should make sure that the system works appropriately, not bypass it by encouraging people to exact punishment themselves through harassment and threats.

post #14 of 165

I think Spike Lee and Rosanne Barr should be arrested immediately.  They clearly committed a hate crime; why are they still walking free?

 

Did you read about Mr. Martin being caught with burglar tools and apparently stolen jewelry?

 

But I will say it once again; there are good reasons why citizens acting in lieu of police patrols are heavily discouraged from carrying weapons. 

 

I hope someone comes forward with a video of the incident.  Seems like everything else is on video, these days!

 

 

post #15 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post


Did you read about Mr. Martin being caught with burglar tools and apparently stolen jewelry?

 


 

So you believe Martin should face a death penalty for robbery based on only Mr. Zimmerman's judgment.
 

 

post #16 of 165

Not at all.  I think it should be noted Mr. Zimmerman's suspicions of him might have been more accurate than is being mentioned in much of the media.  Burglary isn't a hanging offense, yet...unless you come in someone's house, car, or property and threaten them.

 

The police have been trained in many ways to subdue an attacker (or a fleeing criminal) without using deadly force; that's why citizens' patrols are supposed to call them (as, apparently Mr. Zimmerman did a number of times in the past, and on this occasion).

 

I don't think Mr. Zimmerman acted properly.  That doesn't mean he acted illegally.  As someone else mentioned, that's what juries are for.

post #17 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post

Not at all.  I think it should be noted Mr. Zimmerman's suspicions of him might have been more accurate than is being mentioned in much of the media.  Burglary isn't a hanging offense, yet...unless you come in someone's house, car, or property and threaten them.

 

The police have been trained in many ways to subdue an attacker (or a fleeing criminal) without using deadly force; that's why citizens' patrols are supposed to call them (as, apparently Mr. Zimmerman did a number of times in the past, and on this occasion).

 

I don't think Mr. Zimmerman acted properly.  That doesn't mean he acted illegally.  As someone else mentioned, that's what juries are for.


That is the crux of the entire controversy.  If the police never arrest him, then the jury will never consider if what he did violated the law.  So it is possible that in Florida, you can pursue someone suspicious and then kill that person if he turns on you.  There is no obligation or duty to avoid a dangerous situation. The person that was killed was possibly condemned to death for a crime by someone who is not judge or jury.

post #18 of 165
I think that if somebody was following me (which I'd consider pretty darn suspicious), I would probably turn and confront them. Well, being a woman it would depend how big they were. . but if I were a man I definitely would. Which I guess would give the person enough reason to shoot me? Yikes.

This is an open carry state but I only know one guy obnoxious enough to do so. My dad (who is a big gun enthusiast, has a concealed carry permit, and, yes, is a member of the NRA) says it takes a special blend of insecurity, overcompensation (tongue.gif), and macho posturing to open carry a handgun under everyday circumstances.
post #19 of 165
Thread Starter 

Just some questions:

 

We know that there was a scuffle prior to the shooting with either Zimmerman or Trayvon on top. If Trayvon  was on top, as Zimmerman claims, when he was shot, where did the blood go? Shouldn't it be all over Zimmerman?

 

If Zimmerman got up prior to shooting, is it still self defense?

post #20 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post

Just some questions:

We know that there was a scuffle prior to the shooting with either Zimmerman or Trayvon on top. If Trayvon  was on top, as Zimmerman claims, when he was shot, where did the blood go? Shouldn't it be all over Zimmerman?

If Zimmerman got up prior to shooting, is it still self defense?


We know that's what Zimmerman says happened. I saw the grainy tape of when he was taken to the police station and I sure didn't see the amount of blood that should have been on his clothing if he had a head wound and broken nose. Both of those injuries bleed a lot. Regardless, IMO, a teenager beating up a full grown man is not a reasonable "self-defense" scenario. At the very least, Zimmerman certainly used excessive force for the situation at hand. At the very least. Personally I think it goes deeper than that, but again that is just my opinion.

The media is certainly trying this case without all the facts and that in and of itself is a travesty. They determined Zimmerman was a racist guilty of murder - they may as well have had banjo music playing behind his picture. The fact that the only picture they show of Zimmerman looks like a mug shot and the only pictures they show of Trayvon are at least 4 years old (when he was 13 and cute...not looking like a 17 year old almost-adult) shows their slant on the story. There is a lot more to the story than what we know; than what the press knows.

The Stand Your Ground law...I'm really torn about that one. We have a "Make My Day" law in Colorado where it is justifiable to shoot an intruder in your home IF there is a reasonable threat of death to self or others in the house (**NOTE: NOT a free pass to shoot anyone who comes in your home!). The key, IMO, to our law is the "reasonable" part. I understand the concept of the Stand Your Ground law but it really comes down to the legal language of it and I don't have the time nor the inclination to read it. I don't see how chasing after someone is "STAND(ing) Your Ground" though dontknow.gif regardless of if he ends up jumping on you (I would too if some guy was following me at night!) and even if he breaks your nose, IMO.

Being a firearms enthusiast myself, I have to respectfully disagree with Jana that it is the NRA and gun laws that are to blame for this incident. Zimmerman was to blame, period. Whether or not he was acting legally has yet to be determined. Perhaps the fact that this "neighborhood watch" allowed him (or didn't forbid him) from carrying a gun while on "patrol" was a contributing factor. He obviously had a greatly exaggerated sense of importance being this "neighborhood watch" guy.

However, I will certainly grant you that if you just read the NRA propaganda you would think that every law abiding person should want to own a gun or there's just something wrong with them! Obviously there is no such thing as black and white to this issue, just shades of grey. All of the propaganda from either side paints with very wide brush strokes in all black and white, which means that neither side is anywhere near correct on most of their facts, figures, or "truths."
post #21 of 165

While the NRA is not responsible for Zimmerman's action, it and its laws do everything to block and remove any laws that would screen or weed out people like Zimmerman.  They do nothing to address the side-effects of their efforts.  Their only answer to situation like these are "Oh well, maybe he shouldn't have had a gun".  To me this is irresponsible, to push these laws and then fight every effort to mitigate the side-effects.

 

 

post #22 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post


We know that's what Zimmerman says happened. I saw the grainy tape of when he was taken to the police station and I sure didn't see the amount of blood that should have been on his clothing if he had a head wound and broken nose. Both of those injuries bleed a lot. Regardless, IMO, a teenager beating up a full grown man is not a reasonable "self-defense" scenario. At the very least, Zimmerman certainly used excessive force for the situation at hand. At the very least. Personally I think it goes deeper than that, but again that is just my opinion.
The media is certainly trying this case without all the facts and that in and of itself is a travesty. They determined Zimmerman was a racist guilty of murder - they may as well have had banjo music playing behind his picture. The fact that the only picture they show of Zimmerman looks like a mug shot and the only pictures they show of Trayvon are at least 4 years old (when he was 13 and cute...not looking like a 17 year old almost-adult) shows their slant on the story. There is a lot more to the story than what we know; than what the press knows.
The Stand Your Ground law...I'm really torn about that one. We have a "Make My Day" law in Colorado where it is justifiable to shoot an intruder in your home IF there is a reasonable threat of death to self or others in the house (**NOTE: NOT a free pass to shoot anyone who comes in your home!). The key, IMO, to our law is the "reasonable" part. I understand the concept of the Stand Your Ground law but it really comes down to the legal language of it and I don't have the time nor the inclination to read it. I don't see how chasing after someone is "STAND(ing) Your Ground" though dontknow.gif regardless of if he ends up jumping on you (I would too if some guy was following me at night!) and even if he breaks your nose, IMO.
Being a firearms enthusiast myself, I have to respectfully disagree with Jana that it is the NRA and gun laws that are to blame for this incident. Zimmerman was to blame, period. Whether or not he was acting legally has yet to be determined. Perhaps the fact that this "neighborhood watch" allowed him (or didn't forbid him) from carrying a gun while on "patrol" was a contributing factor. He obviously had a greatly exaggerated sense of importance being this "neighborhood watch" guy.
However, I will certainly grant you that if you just read the NRA propaganda you would think that every law abiding person should want to own a gun or there's just something wrong with them! Obviously there is no such thing as black and white to this issue, just shades of grey. All of the propaganda from either side paints with very wide brush strokes in all black and white, which means that neither side is anywhere near correct on most of their facts, figures, or "truths."


Did you also notice he looks just about NOTHING now, like the picture they are circulating? (Zimmerman I mean) I did find a recent picture of Trayvon, but it's rather explicit (He's flipping the bird in one picture and has his pants around his thighs in the other) He also looks nothing like the sweet little boy in the picture. It still doesn't mean Trayvon should be dead, but like I said before-there is MUCH more to this story than what we're hearing. I'll bet there IS video of the incident...but you know what happens to witnesses...especially when you invlve lynch mobs and the Black Panthers. Nobody wants to speak up in any capacity. 

 

post #23 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqchick View Post


Did you also notice he looks just about NOTHING now, like the picture they are circulating? (Zimmerman I mean) I did find a recent picture of Trayvon, but it's rather explicit (He's flipping the bird in one picture and has his pants around his thighs in the other) He also looks nothing like the sweet little boy in the picture. It still doesn't mean Trayvon should be dead, but like I said before-there is MUCH more to this story than what we're hearing. I'll bet there IS video of the incident...but you know what happens to witnesses...especially when you invlve lynch mobs and the Black Panthers. Nobody wants to speak up in any capacity. 

 


You might want to check your sources on that picture.  Fox News pulled a Facebook picture that turned out to NOT be Trayvon Martin.  They made a big deal about finding it and like all of the media outlets made a very small deal about the apology.

 

post #24 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by katachtig View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by resqchick View Post

Did you also notice he looks just about NOTHING now, like the picture they are circulating? (Zimmerman I mean) I did find a recent picture of Trayvon, but it's rather explicit (He's flipping the bird in one picture and has his pants around his thighs in the other) He also looks nothing like the sweet little boy in the picture. It still doesn't mean Trayvon should be dead, but like I said before-there is MUCH more to this story than what we're hearing. I'll bet there IS video of the incident...but you know what happens to witnesses...especially when you invlve lynch mobs and the Black Panthers. Nobody wants to speak up in any capacity. 


You might want to check your sources on that picture.  Fox News pulled a Facebook picture that turned out to NOT be Trayvon Martin.  They made a big deal about finding it and like all of the media outlets made a very small deal about the apology.

From the Miami New Times: Trayvon Martin: No, That's Not His Facebook Page Showing "Gangsta" Photos UPDATED
Quote:
But the "Trayvon Martin" the page belongs to lists his school as Myers Middle School. All of his relatives are listed as living in Savannah, Georgia, where there is a Myers Middle School.

The late Martin, who grew up in Miami Gardens, went to Norland Middle and Highland Oaks Middle schools, and more recently attended Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School.

Trayvon Martin's real Facebook page is here, complete with photos and information clearly depicting him, and updated before the date of his death.

The bogus page probably belongs either to another Trayvon Martin, or to a kid who renamed his page in tribute.
post #25 of 165

If you look at the other face picture...it's Trayvon or his twin. Same eyes, same nose, same mouth. More facial hair obviously. I know there are thousands of twitter and facebook pages dedicated to Trayvon, but that picture is a dead ringer, and the FB account is older then a month. WAY older. 

 

That's not the point, though. My husband came home from work 2 days ago, upset. He heard the FULL 911 call, and it's really far from the edited one. Whatever it is, it is. A kid is dead, that's terribly sad, but I think there's much to the big picture that we're not seeing or hearing. PLUS, so far, 2 older white men have been attacked by youths yelling "This is for Trayvon". I think slowly but surely, the black panthers are getting what they wanted. Foolish, misguided retribution on innocent people. 

 

 

post #26 of 165

I don't understand why it makes a difference what kind of picture the media are showing of him. To me that's completely irrelevant. Yes, the media is biased in his favor, so they show a more flattering picture-- who wouldn't be after having heard primary source evidence that clearly shows that the police did not act rationally- someone was murdered and they let the killer walk free....Last weekend I was so upset over this whole situation, I listened to 40 minutes of 911 calls- the original call from Zimmerman, and calls from all the neighbors...it is obvious to me, regardless of what the media said, that this is NOT a 100% clear self defense shooting.

And anyway, this is not about taking sides, it's not about putting Zimmerman in jail, it's only about making sure he gets his day in court.....According to FL law, Zimmerman has to prove that what he did was in self defense. I think the police officers who worked on that case should all be fired ....because if this is how the justice system always works, then killers would be walking free because in any kind of struggle it can be argued by the killer that he felt threatened and had to stand his ground and shoot...

post #27 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I think the police officers who worked on that case should all be fired ....because if this is how the justice system always works, then killers would be walking free because in any kind of struggle it can be argued by the killer that he felt threatened and had to stand his ground and shoot...


It is reported that the lead investigator recommended Zimmerman be arrested, but the state attorney "held it off pending further review."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46885463/ns/local_news-orlando_fl/t/report-state-attorney-held-zimmermans-arrest/#.T38ArvBAb90

post #28 of 165

It seems rather simple to me really.  Zimmerman is a zealot against blacks, he purposely followed and confronted an innocent teen, shot him, told lies that said small statured teen attacked big old him so he had to shoot him.  The police saw a white man who shot a black "person" so no big deal, right?  His defense team and the police will put out all kinds of false information about the black boy not being a good kid and was into all sorts of horrible things, the white man will get off with a slap on the wrist and possibly go forward to kill another black man in the future.  What a miscarriage of justice IMO.

 

Shades of Rodney King.

post #29 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post

It seems rather simple to me really.  Zimmerman is a zealot against blacks, he purposely followed and confronted an innocent teen, shot him, told lies that said small statured teen attacked big old him so he had to shoot him.

 

 

 

Well, time for a few facts here.  Trayvon was almost 6' to 6'2", and 5 to 7 inches taller than Mr. Zimmerman.  They weighed about the same.  Now...what does that do to your theory?  There had been a number of burglaries in the area, and Mr. Zimmerman saw what he thought was a suspicious young man.  He called the police; then he observed the young man, waiting for the police to arrive, trying not to let the young man escape before the police arrived. 

 

I wouldn't have done it that way.  I've told the story last year about the shots fired in our alley, and the two young black men running up the alley, one with a gun in his hand.  When I saw them, I retreated into my garage.  I didn't even go back out into the alley to see where they went.  I stayed there and waited for the police to arrive, which they did quickly and in force.  The young men got away.  But neither I (nor they) got shot, which was a good thing...unless they use that gun on someone else at a later date.

 

I suspect this will end up in court, and both sides' lawyers will tell very different stories.  Since lawyers aren't required to tell the truth, a jury will have to decide on a preponderance of evidence
 

 

post #30 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post

 

Well, time for a few facts here.  Trayvon was almost 6' to 6'2", and 5 to 7 inches taller than Mr. Zimmerman.  They weighed about the same.  Now...what does that do to your theory?  There had been a number of burglaries in the area, and Mr. Zimmerman saw what he thought was a suspicious young man.  He called the police; then he observed the young man, waiting for the police to arrive, trying not to let the young man escape before the police arrived. 

 

I wouldn't have done it that way.  I've told the story last year about the shots fired in our alley, and the two young black men running up the alley, one with a gun in his hand.  When I saw them, I retreated into my garage.  I didn't even go back out into the alley to see where they went.  I stayed there and waited for the police to arrive, which they did quickly and in force.  The young men got away.  But neither I (nor they) got shot, which was a good thing...unless they use that gun on someone else at a later date.

 

I suspect this will end up in court, and both sides' lawyers will tell very different stories.  Since lawyers aren't required to tell the truth, a jury will have to decide on a preponderance of evidence
 

 



I see a huge difference with your story- those two men were carrying a gun and you heard shots....
Trayvon was carrying candy and iced tea....so the situation you were in is not even comparable to the situation Zimmerman was in before he decided to follow Trayvon.

 

 

 

 

 

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