Identical twins?

So I've wondered if two of my kitties, Blaze and Mr Grey, might be twins... They look so much alike! It could just be because they are from the same litter, but none of the other cats in the litter look this identical! I rescued them as 3-week old feral babies, there were 7 cats in the litter and I ended up keeping 4 because I couldn't find enough homes for them all... Mr Grey used to be one of the "runts" in the litter (3 kittens were much small than the rest) but since then he has caught up to his siblings' size.

Most people can't tell them apart, I always have to tell people, even my own family, to look for the long "sock" because Blaze has one long and one short sock while Mr Grey just has two short "socks". I can tell them apart easily by their faces but most people have trouble...

So what do you think? Twins?

In this first photo, Blaze is on the left and Mr Grey on the right, can you tell who's who in the other pics? (ok so I kinda gave it away already)

No, they're not identical twins.   If they were then they would have identical markings when if you look closely, their markings and colors are only very similar, but there are differences. One of the biggest differences is that Blaze's white streak that goes up his nose goes higher up than Mr. Gray's white spot. Also, Blaze's nose is darker and is shaped differently.  Also (even though its hard to tell exactly in these pictures) I think their eyes are also shaped differently.    If they were identical there wouldn't be even these tiny differences. 

Actually, since the extent/location of the white markings is something that occurs during fetal development, I'm pretty sure identical twins can have white markings that are not totally identical, as the location of the markings is not totally controlled by genetics. The location may be affected by things like the migration of cells in the early embryo and the fetal environment-- like how human identical twins do not have identical fingerprints.

Even cloned animals may have differences in the placement of markings because of this.

The other slight differences could possibly also be due to development differences, especially since Mr Grey was so undersized and was thin (malnourished) when I rescued them at 3 weeks old so this may have affected his development. Actually the size difference when they were babies was part of what made me wonder whether they might be identical twins, because he was so much smaller and it is not unusual with identical twins to have one that is smaller.

Here is some info on how white spotting in cats works:

http://www.messybeast.com/bicolours.htm

There are twins and there are identical twins...

You kitties certainly look twins - as you say: they are from the same litter.

The identical twins come like that:

there is one egg being split in two and the twins grow in the same egg whilst in mom's womb.  You would not see ANY difference between them in markings at all, and size, etc., providing they were raised the same way.

But there is definite difference in your kitties' markings on their faces that I see from the photos.  So, no, they are not identical, not from the same egg.

But... man-oh-man - they are so adorable!!!!!!

Nekochan said:

Actually, since the extent/location of the white markings is something that occurs during fetal development, I'm pretty sure identical twins can have white markings that are not totally identical, as the location of the markings is not totally controlled by genetics. The location may be affected by things like the migration of cells in the early embryo and the fetal environment-- like how human identical twins do not have identical fingerprints.

Even cloned animals may have differences in the placement of markings because of this.

The other slight differences could possibly also be due to development differences, especially since Mr Grey was so undersized and was thin (malnourished) when I rescued them at 3 weeks old so this may have affected his development. Actually the size difference when they were babies was part of what made me wonder whether they might be identical twins, because he was so much smaller and it is not unusual with identical twins to have one that is smaller.

Here is some info on how white spotting in cats works:

http://www.messybeast.com/bicolours.htm

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Oh, yes.  I would know just a little bit about that.  I have a degree in zoological engineering.

Whist the identical twins can have the same appearance - their fingerprints would be still different, because nothing is the same in nature.

Whist clones would have EVERYTHING the same, including the fingerprints...

On cats - if markings can be likened to the fingerprints - then perhaps yes for them being identical, but such large difference in markings - I'd not bet that they are identical twins.

There are so many tabbies if you look can have so many similarities between them, including ones from totally different litters.

Size wise - this is not really a reliable value in relation to that.

One can eat more, and another can eat less, and how can we control it for them to eat exactly the same amount of exactly the same part of food given?

Ambermay said:

Size wise - this is not really a reliable value in relation to that.

One can eat more, and another can eat less, and how can we control it for them to eat exactly the same amount of exactly the same part of food given?

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Kind of off topic, but that reminds me of a study I saw on the news years ago where there were a bunch of sets of identical twins and they were doing a nature vs nurture study to see what effects living life had on people who started life identical. I remember one set of twins in particular were polar opposites: the first twin was adament about eating healthy, exercising, proper sleep habits, and all the other healthy things you can imagine while the second twin was a lifelong smoker (these particular women were 45 or 50), tanning bed enthusiast, and ate lots of processed, fatty food. You could hardly tell they were ever twins. The second twin was darker, incomparibly wrinklier than her sister, her skin was extremely waxy due to her diet, and she had a voice like a frog while the first twin was vibrant, had good skin texture, and looked at least 10 - 15 years younger than her formerly identical twin. If I didn't know about their relationship beforehand, I would definitely have guessed they were mother and daughter instead of twin sisters.

Back on topic, I agree that these cats do not look like identical twins. They are very similar, but the markings are different if you look for more than a few seconds. Not just the white markings either, but almost every stripe on the cats is in the same pattern, but shifted slightly. I know I wouldn't be able to tell them apart if they weren't in the same picture, but you can tell they have differences when you put them together like that.

Ambermay said:

On cats - if markings can be likened to the fingerprints - then perhaps yes for them being identical, but such large difference in markings - I'd not bet that they are identical twins.

There are so many tabbies if you look can have so many similarities between them, including ones from totally different litters.

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Actually cloned animals do not always have identical markings. There are dog and cat clones whose markings are different from the "original".

Examples:

http://jennifercopley.suite101.com/cloned-cats--copy-cat-and-little-nicky-a214088

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/garden/01clones.html?_r=1&ref=science

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/c...cc-prove-that-cloning-wont-resurrect-your-pet

The stripes on a tabby as well as the locations of the white markings can be different on identical twins because these are things that are determined during development, not fully determined by genetics.

Also human clones would not have identical fingerprints, for the same reason identical twins do not. The type of fingerprint patterns is determined by genetics, but the exact pattern comes about during fetal development, the same as markings in animals so it would be different.

That is true, twins do not always have identical markings.  My parents bred dogs when I was growing up and every litter, we watched and helped the mom.  Twins, identical, would always come out of the same sack but not always have the same markings.  They are very close, it is very possible that they are identical twins!!!

After reading your responses to the answers people gave, why did you post this thread to begin with? You seem to already be dead set on the idea that they are identical twins. The only evidence people here have to go off of are the pictures you sent, and the only thing that can be determined from pictures is if the two cats look identical or not. You are even showing us links explaining that cats which look different can still be identical twins, meaning nobody here can tell you one way or another. That being said, what are you looking for in terms of answers?

I am not dead set on the idea, I'm just thinking about it as a possiblity. If I were set on it I would just have posted photos and said "Hey look at my two cats who are identical twins!" 

I just was curious what other people think about whether they could be monozygotic twins; if people think it is a possibility-- not looking for a concrete answer obviously; and also partly just for fun because they are cute look-alikes and I have wondered about this for a while now.

I realize the only ways to know for sure would be if I had seen their birth(if they shared a placenta) which I did not, or by doing genetic testing which isn't readily available so it was more of a "what do you think?" sort of thing.

The answers I gave were just me giving facts about cat markings, because people were saying they can't be identical because their markings are not identical. I was just explaining that it is not true so people know the facts about cat markings... Otherwise if people don't know that and don't have all the facts, they just say they can't be identical because of their markings which isn't the case.

I guess I should just have not posted their photos in the first place....sorry everyone!

Nekochan said:

Actually cloned animals do not always have identical markings. There are dog and cat clones whose markings are different from the "original".

Examples:

http://jennifercopley.suite101.com/cloned-cats--copy-cat-and-little-nicky-a214088

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/garden/01clones.html?_r=1&ref=science

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/c...cc-prove-that-cloning-wont-resurrect-your-pet

The stripes on a tabby as well as the locations of the white markings can be different on identical twins because these are things that are determined during development, not fully determined by genetics.

Also human clones would not have identical fingerprints, for the same reason identical twins do not. The type of fingerprint patterns is determined by genetics, but the exact pattern comes about during fetal development, the same as markings in animals so it would be different.

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This is very interesting, though we were taught otherwise.

We also were taught that in this area there is a lot of false information.  I will not remark on those links, for I've seen them before.  But thank you - you are a very inquisitive person and it is very good.

I just wish you get to the truth of that matter, which is still in scientific debate.

I personally don't want to argue for I have not enough knowledge, because I have not done my own research in the area, and after my degree - I didn't work in that area, but instead I worked in farming business.

If those kitties are identical twins or not - would the human mom or dad love them any less? - I guess not...  Your tabbies are simply adorable, just like I said, just such sweetnesses... !

My baby Johnie is also a grey tabby, and looks so different to your kitties.

His sister from that very litter - Janie looks entirely different (mine definitely are not identical twins), I even sometimes wonder how can they have come from the same mom-cat!... but they did.

Johnie is a silver-tabby DSH very much looking like Egyptian Mau by his appearance and attitude, yet Janie is a white tabby DMH (nothing silver, but more like white-brown markings to her - almost like a Siamese seal-point or tabby-point).  Janie also displays the character that of Siamese, but she is not the one.  Like I said in some other place - she is just my darling moggie girl.

Check them out together now: 



Sorry, not the best picture for such kind of discussion, but you can see the difference.

Considering this difference in my twins - yours CAN be identical, but who knows?  And how do we really know for sure?

I should add a little to my original response.

Your cats ARE twins since they were born at the same time (like most kittens from the same litter)  but the question of if they are identical is pretty much impossible to say by pictures of even in person by the owner.  The only way you can know for sure is if you get their genetics tested because identical twins are called identical because they're genetics are identical so testing them is the only way to know for certain.  Twins in animals are very hard to discern just because even if a litter of cats are all gray tabbies, doesn't mean that they are all identical twins even if their color, markings and skeletal structure is very much alike.

There are twins that are called "half identical" where twins have exactly the same genes from their mother but different ones from their father.  They can looks very much a like still but they will have more physical differences than a purely identical set of twins.

My PERSONAL opinion from my personal experiences with human only twins are that Identical twins are very much impossible to tell apart unless you know them very well.  I had a couple different sets of identical twins as friends growing up and both were impossible to tell apart from the sibling until I got to know them.  On one set, one of their noses, the bridge was very very slightly broader than the other brother's but this type of difference can be caused by conditions in the mother's womb. But besides that they were absolutely identical. Same has been the case for other identical twins I've met in my life of close to 24 years. In that time I've know about 5 sets of identical twins. 2 when I lived in Iowa and then 3 after I moved to Kansas. 

So they could be identical but I highly doubt it.  Lol I guess if you want to know the absolute truth and have the money, get them tested to find out.

I should add a little to my original response.

Your cats ARE twins since they were born at the same time (like most kittens from the same litter)  but the question of if they are identical is pretty much impossible to say by pictures of even in person by the owner.  The only way you can know for sure is if you get their genetics tested because identical twins are called identical because they're genetics are identical so testing them is the only way to know for certain.  Twins in animals are very hard to discern just because even if a litter of cats are all gray tabbies, doesn't mean that they are all identical twins even if their color, markings and skeletal structure is very much alike.

There are twins that are called "half identical" where twins have exactly the same genes from their mother but different ones from their father.  They can looks very much a like still but they will have more physical differences than a purely identical set of twins.

My PERSONAL opinion from my personal experiences with human only twins are that Identical twins are very much impossible to tell apart unless you know them very well.  I had a couple different sets of identical twins as friends growing up and both were impossible to tell apart from the sibling until I got to know them.  On one set, one of their noses, the bridge was very very slightly broader than the other brother's but this type of difference can be caused by conditions in the mother's womb. But besides that they were absolutely identical. Same has been the case for other identical twins I've met in my life of close to 24 years. In that time I've know about 5 sets of identical twins. 2 when I lived in Iowa and then 3 after I moved to Kansas. 

So they could be identical but I highly doubt it.  Lol I guess if you want to know the absolute truth and have the money, get them tested to find out.

Twins or not, they are cute

Thanks! They are also really sweet and each have their own personality quirks... Mr Grey loves to cuddle on my lap, and Blaze likes to put his "arms" around my neck with his head under my chin and knead me, and also likes to ride on my shoulders. Blaze also plays fetch and is goes crazy (does somersaults in the air) for wand toys, Mr Grey likes toys but is more reserved. They both like to sleep on my bed and when the lights are out I have to feel their collars to tell which one is which, because Mr Grey wears a hanging tag on his collar that says about his allergies.  He also sometimes wears pajamas when he's having an allergy flare-up...

Identical twins dont have to be completely identical, these guys arent. they have alot of the same markings but there both different color and one has blue eyes and one has green and than the orange one is much larger than the white. i know for sure there twins cause they were both in the same sac when they were born. it is possible that yours are twins i think they look alot alike.