Peas? Potato Starch? Fish Meal? Yikes!

So, my indoor Kitties have recently gone Grain Free!  

While I literally spent hours comparing and considering foods for them,

I overlooked some things that are now starting to concern me a little.     

Here is their basic meal plan:

Breakfast: (4:30 a.m.) Home-made Chicken Breast - Ground after cooking, juice added back (Roughly 1.0 oz per Kitty)

                I add Dr. Goodpet's Max Protection Formula and sometimes additional powdered Taurine; occasionally Bone Meal powder.

                Wondering if I should add a little Organic Flax Oil?

Before I leave (around 5:15 a.m.) They each get less than 1/8th cup of dry.

               Currently, this is Wellness Core.

Upon my return (usually around 3:00 p.m.) They each get less than 1/8th cup of dry.

               Currently, this is Wellness Core.

Dinner:    (7:00 p.m.) Split one half of one Large Can among 5 Kitties. (Roughly 1.5 oz per Kitty)

              This is either Wellness Turkey or Wellness Chicken.

              On Party Night (Saturday) they get Evo Cat & Kitten or Wellness Turkey & Salmon

Before Bed:  (10:00 p.m.) they each get less than 1/8th cup of dry.

               Currently, this is Buffalo Wilderness Chicken Formula.

Among my concerns are Fish products.

We have all heard stories about increased risk of Kidney problems (failure, stones, crystals) and Mercury poisoning.

Initially, I was planning to include Evo canned Cat & Kitten in their daily rotation, but upon closer inspection, it contains Herring, Salmon Meal and Herring Oil. So, I have slid it down to one dinner every 2 weeks (alternating Saturdays with Wellness Turkey & Salmon.)

Another concern is Peas. I have heard of Pea Allergies.

My third concern is Potato Starch.

(I have eliminated several Dry foods from consideration because of Potatoes or Potato Protein.)

However, the most desirable (*IMO) Grain Free Dry foods all contain at least one of these ingredients that concern me.

* I have read the ingredients of literally DOZENS of Grain Free dry foods on PFD, and have eliminated most of them.

I realize that dry foods need "something" to function as a binding agent (Peas and/or Potato Starch in these instances.)

Is one of these somehow better or less potentially harmful than the other?

Although Core is highly recommended, it has:

Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Herring Meal, Peas, Potatoes...

In other words, all of the remaining ingredients that concern me.

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, this will be our last bag of Core.

Due to computer issues and the length of this post, I will split it - continued below...

If the only thing you have against peas is the possibility of allergies, there's no reason to avoid it. There's a possibility of allergies with any protein. . .I had a dog who was allergic to chicken but I don't avoid chicken for pets who aren't allergic to it.

I really don't think you're going to be able to find a dry food with no fish, peas, or potatoes. Maybe you should cut out the dry food altogether, and go with all canned and raw (commercial raw is just as convenient as canned, if that's a factor).

　

Here are the foods that have made the "Finals" - unless someone comes up with something better.

Evo Turkey & Chicken Formula

Ingredients:

Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Peas, Egg, Turkey Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Apples, Carrots, Cranberries, Herring Oil, Tomatoes, Pumpkin, Dried Chicory Root, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Taur, DL Methionine, Minerals, Vitamins, Direct-Fed Microbials

Analysis:

Crude Protein (min) 50% - Crude Fat (min) 22% - Crude Fiber (max) 2%

Pros: 50% Protein + 22% Fat = max of 28% Carbs, which is very low for dry food.

Cons: Herring Meal, Peas, Pea Fiber (Herring meal as 4th ingredient - likely 2nd highest source of protein.)

　

Innova Prime (NEW to Market)

Ingredients:

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Peas, Turkey, Flaxseed, Pea Fiber, Menhaden Oil (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Dried Chicory Root Extract, Apples, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Carrots, Pumpkin, Vitamins, Cranberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Minerals, DL-Methionine, Cottage Cheese, Direct Fed Microbials, Vitamin E Supplement, Rosemary Extract

Analysis:

Crude Protein (Min) 42.0% - Crude Fat (Min) 20.0% - Crude Fiber (Max) 3.5%

Pros: Only Fish product is Menhaden Oil, which I expect cannot be a significant % of the total in a DRY food

Cons: Peas is 3rd and 6th ingredient, and likely a very large portion of the 38% of this product which is Carbs.

　

Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken

Ingredients:

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Potato Starch, Fish Meal(natural source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Chicken Fat (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Peas, Whole Potatoes, Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), Natural Chicken Flavor, Alfalfa Meal, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Cranberries, Blueberries, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Turmeric, Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin (Vitamin B3), d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Choline Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Salt, Caramel, Potassium Chloride, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium.

Analysis:

Crude Protein (min) 40% - Crude Fat (min) 18% - Crude Fiber (max) 3.5%

Pros: My cats have been eating this for a few years, and they seem to be doing fine; no peas.

Cons: Contains Fish Meal, but likely not a large %. Potato Starch is 4th ingredient, and likely a large proportion of the 42% Carbs in this formula.

　

I have sent an e-mail to the Blue Buffalo company asking them to tell me the percentage of Fish Meal and Potato Starch in this product. Assuming they reply, I will share the information in a future post.

If anyone has any information or ideas regarding these three ingredients of concern (Fish products, Peas and Potato Starch) or their role within these foods, or if you are aware of any other High Quality dry foods that I might have overlooked, please let me know.

Thanks!  

Willowy said:

If the only thing you have against peas is the possibility of allergies, there's no reason to avoid it. There's a possibility of allergies with any protein. . .I had a dog who was allergic to chicken but I don't avoid chicken for pets who aren't allergic to it.
I really don't think you're going to be able to find a dry food with no fish, peas, or potatoes. Maybe you should cut out the dry food altogether, and go with all canned and raw (commercial raw is just as convenient as canned, if that's a factor).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Willowy 

I don't know what to think about peas...

are they digestible for cats? If so, maybe there is some benefit.

If not, how is it any better than Brown Rice for example?

I have the same questions about Potato Starch... (digestible? any benefit? If not, how is it any better than Brown Rice?)

I agree - I will likely not find any dry GF food with none of these 3 ingredients, so I'm trying to learn more about them and their effects on the Kitties.

Time is the biggest factor for me in keeping some dry in their diets. Plus, they are used to several small meals, and if I try to feed larger amounts, the slim Kitties will stop at their regular amount, and the chubby ones will eat all plus the left overs, then they tend to vomit bacause they ate so much. Canned food vomit on off-white Berber carpet is a MESS!  

Some brands I know of that aren't as common and may have been overlooked (I haven't looked at the ingredient list; I just know they're good brands. And you probably looked at most of them, I'm just throwing suggestions out there):

Orijen
Acana
Go!
Now
Before Grain
Earthborn Holistic
Fromm
Natural Balance Alpha Cat
Timberwolf Organics/Serengeti
Pinnacle

Thanks Willowy -

I did check out the first 8 on that list at PFD.

I didn't take notes, but they each had some ingredient (or lack thereof) that I wasn't comfortable with,

so they didn't make the "Finals."

I don't recall seeing Timberwolf Organics/Serengeti or Pinnacle... I'll do a web search.

If you want to feed dry food due to time constraints, why not consider freeze dried raw? It's more expensive, but if money isn't the issue, it obviates the problem ingredients. Obviously these are meant to be rehydrated, but we feed them dry as treats. And I'm not sure I see a difference between feeding kibble and feeding freeze dried raw without rehydrating. No peas, no "meal," no potato starch.... same texture they're used to, just slightly larger pieces that can easily be broken up if need be. Or rehydrating only takes a minute or two. :dk:

Here's an example: http://www.stellaandchewys.com/cat-driedchicken.php

FYI, the Stella and Chewy's freeze dried dog food is formed in larger patties that can be broken up. All are supplemented with taurine, and are 95% meat, and 5% "other stuff" just as the cat food is (in fact, they're appropriate for cats, but not so much for dogs because of the protein content).

All S&C products are guaranteed pathogen-free: http://www.stellaandchewys.com/safety.php. They also meet AAFCO "balanced and complete" profile.

Just a thought. :dk:

LDG said:

If you want to feed dry food due to time constraints, why not consider freeze dried raw? It's more expensive, but if money isn't the issue, it obviates the problem ingredients. Obviously these are meant to be rehydrated, but we feed them dry as treats. And I'm not sure I see a difference between feeding kibble and feeding freeze dried raw without rehydrating. No peas, no "meal," no potato starch.... same texture they're used to, just slightly larger pieces that can easily be broken up if need be. Or rehydrating only takes a minute or two. :dk:
Here's an example: http://www.stellaandchewys.com/cat-driedchicken.php
FYI, the Stella and Chewy's freeze dried dog food is formed in larger patties that can be broken up. All are supplemented with taurine, and are 95% meat, and 5% "other stuff" just as the cat food is (in fact, they're appropriate for cats, but not so much for dogs because of the protein content).
All S&C products are guaranteed pathogen-free: http://www.stellaandchewys.com/safety.php. They also meet AAFCO "balanced and complete" profile.
Just a thought. :dk:

Click to expand...

A good suggestion... as I have totally transitioned my cat's to S&C freeze-dried from EVO kibble that I used to offer at bedtime only. Now they get the freeze-dried instead. There is also Vital Essentials freeze-dried which is just like a kibble but a bit harder than the S&C product. But with the Vital Essential's line you could easily leave this out for the cats to nibble just like the dry. I use the Stella and Chewey's dog patties - they are very easy to break up into small pieces for cats. S&C does make a cat line of freeze-dried as Laurie links you to above. I have been very happy with this brand of food and have not had any problems at all. I always rehydrate it with warm water - but not always if I have to leave some out in the bowls. Works very well

Well - neither of us can feed the beef cat version of the food to our cats without someone getting sick. Just a head's up for the berber carpet if you decide to give this idea a try. Try the chicken first to see how it goes. I'd recommend the dog lamb patties next if the chicken goes over well. IF you want to give it a try.

Willowy said:

If the only thing you have against peas is the possibility of allergies, there's no reason to avoid it. There's a possibility of allergies with any protein. . .I had a dog who was allergic to chicken but I don't avoid chicken for pets who aren't allergic to it.
I really don't think you're going to be able to find a dry food with no fish, peas, or potatoes. Maybe you should cut out the dry food altogether, and go with all canned and raw (commercial raw is just as convenient as canned, if that's a factor).

Click to expand...

I'm curious about your dog's chicken allergy.  If you don't want to answer here, please feel free to respond in PM.  If you want to respond at all   I'm wondering if your dog is allergic to ALL chicken products or can the dog deal with refined chicken products that come in some dog foods to provide omega benefits..

NutroMike said:

I'm curious about your dog's chicken allergy.  If you don't want to answer here, please feel free to respond in PM.  If you want to respond at all   I'm wondering if your dog is allergic to ALL chicken products or can the dog deal with refined chicken products that come in some dog foods to provide omega benefits..

Click to expand...

She was my first dog, and has been gone for almost 4 years now. She was allergic to absolutely everything, poor dog. We had to special-order her food (Solid Gold lamb-based food was the only thing she could eat), which isn't a big deal now with all the online pet food stores, but 15 years ago it was! We tried about a million different kinds of kibble before finding one she could tolerate, and once we found a food that worked for her we didn't mess with it, so exactly what she could deal with was unexplored. Small amounts of fresh chicken didn't seem to bother her, but chicken-based dog foods were not good. Also corn, wheat, soy, and artificial colors. If I knew then what I know now I think I would have put her on a raw diet.

LDG said:

If you want to feed dry food due to time constraints, why not consider freeze dried raw? It's more expensive, but if money isn't the issue, it obviates the problem ingredients.

Click to expand...

Thanks LDG,  that is an interesting idea.  

The "Chick, Chick, Chicken" and the Chicken Patties are over $30./ lb... think I'd need a third job!

The Raw Chicken Steaks though are "only" $5./ lb, but they actually do contain potatoes - go figure. I might still give these a try...

LDG, do you know anything about the digestibility or potential problems with either Peas or Potato Starch?

Freeze-dried foods weigh almost nothing. . .like styrofoam. So looking at the price per pound doesn't give you a good idea of how much you're getting. It's still a bit pricey, but it's not the same as paying $30 a pound for fresh meat. You'll get a lot more volume.

Feralvr said:

A good suggestion... as I have totally transitioned my cat's to S&C freeze-dried from EVO kibble that I used to offer at bedtime only. Now they get the freeze-dried instead. There is also Vital Essentials freeze-dried which is just like a kibble but a bit harder than the S&C product. But with the Vital Essential's line you could easily leave this out for the cats to nibble just like the dry. I use the Stella and Chewey's dog patties - they are very easy to break up into small pieces for cats. S&C does make a cat line of freeze-dried as Laurie links you to above. I have been very happy with this brand of food and have not had any problems at all. I always rehydrate it with warm water - but not always if I have to leave some out in the bowls. Works very well

Click to expand...

Thanks Feralvr,

Do you give them the same amount of this (compared to the amount of Evo they were eating?)

Hmmm, These seem to be pushing $30./ lb as well...  

However, you have inspired me! I saw something online during my search about DIY Freeze Drying.

I can get Perdue or Tyson Chicken Breasts for $1.99 / lb fairly often at Kroger, which is why I feed it to my Kitties...

I am going to look into Freeze Drying - perhaps that would be an affordable option for me.  

Willowy said:

Freeze-dried foods weigh almost nothing. . .like styrofoam. So looking at the price per pound doesn't give you a good idea of how much you're getting. It's still a bit pricey, but it's not the same as paying $30 a pound for fresh meat. You'll get a lot more volume.

Click to expand...

This is very important to note. You're comparing apples and oranges here. How much will that $2.99 per pound chicken cost once all the water is removed. If you then "scaled up" your dried chicken it would be a heck of a lot more than $2.99 per pound, as that entire breast probably weighs a couple of ounces at best without its water. In that $2.99 per pound, you're paying for ... 90% water? 95% water? In the freeze-dried food options, you're not paying for ANY water.

FYI, dark meats have more nutrients than light meats. On a longer term basis, you may want to use thighs as opposed to breasts if you're going to consider going that route. You could also consider turkey thighs and other meats... though home-made dehydrated stuff is not the same as freeze-drying, and often becomes quite chewy as opposed to ... dry. :lol3:

FYI, here is the Stella & Chewy's "blurb" on their freeze-drying process:

Freeze-drying is a process that enables us to remove the moisture from our products without cooking. The product is first frozen and then put into a freeze dryer. Inside the freeze dryer, powerful pumps create a vacuum and extremely cold temperatures. Very low levels of heat are applied to the shelves on which the trays of product sit, enabling the ice within the meat to "sublimate" directly into water vapor, skipping the liquid stage. The product changes from frozen to freeze-dried without ever being thawed or cooked, thereby retaining all of the nutritional value of raw meat, minus the water. With Stella & Chewy's Freeze-Dried Dinners and Treats, you get the best of both worlds; the benefits of raw food with the convenience of a dry food.

Click to expand...

Wysong and The Honest Kitchen market a kind of raw "kibble" though I am not familiar with the ingredients or product. I just know they exist.

As to feeding Stella & Chewy's, as an example, the recommended feeding amount on the bag of chicken for cats is 1 cup of dry nugget thingies for an 8 pound cat daily. Like feeding recommendations on canned and kibble, my cats would balloon up on that amount. I don't know how to translate kibble into raw. But if I were feeding exclusively Stella & Chewy's, my cats (average 11.5 pounds) need about 1/4 cup three times a day. You could probably substitute the 1/8 cup kibble with 1/8 cup S&C raw (or less?). That means you'd get 17.8 days of feeding one cat per bag (at the three meals a day). I have NO idea how this compares to Wysong's or The Honest Kitchen's raw "kibble."

Oh - you're missing some numbers there. The bags (for cat) weigh 12 oz per bag. 1 cup of the nuggets weighs 1.8oz.

Yes, it's still expensive.

LDG said:

This is very important to note. You're comparing apples and oranges here. How much will that $2.99 per pound chicken cost once all the water is removed. If you then "scaled up" your dried chicken it would be a heck of a lot more than $2.99 per pound, as that entire breast probably weighs a couple of ounces at best without its water. In that $2.99 per pound, you're paying for ... 90% water? 95% water? In the freeze-dried food options, you're not paying for ANY water.

Click to expand...

Sure, I understand about the lack of water... that would definitely make the cost much more than $1.99 per pound. 

I was thinking that it would still be nowhere near $30. / lb though. However, looked into the home freeze drying process - sounds a lot like freezer-burning it,

which would almost certainly make my kitties uninterested in eating it.

 

LDG said:

Oh - you're missing some numbers there. The bags (for cat) weigh 12 oz per bag. 1 cup of the nuggets weighs 1.8oz.

Click to expand...

Thanks LDG for weighing the nuggets - that gives me something to work with! 

Blue Wilderness chicken dry weighs about 3.6 oz per cup - twice as much as the Stella & Chewy's.

So, 1/8 cup (their typical serving) of Blue weighs about .45 oz = 426 servings per 12 lb bag. At $30./ bag, it costs me about 7 cents per serving.

With 5 indoor Kitties eating 3 servings per day, the $30. bag would last 28.5 days.

And, 1/8 cup of S&C weighs about .225 oz = 53 servings per 12 oz bag. At $21./ bag (PFD, AutoShip) it would cost me about 39.6 cents per serving.

With 5 indoor Kitties eating 3 servings per day, the $21. bag would last 3.5 days if substituted at equal volume for the dry.

8.5 bags per month = $178./ month.   

Well, I just learned that money indeed "is" an issue...  

OK, back to those Peas and Potaotes... any thoughts anyone?   

SevenWonders said:

The Raw Chicken Steaks though are "only" $5./ lb, but they actually do contain potatoes - go figure. I might still give these a try...

Click to expand...

The "Raw Chicken Steaks" I referenced earlier are Frozen, wet food, not freeze dried.   

No wonder it is $5./ lb rather than $30.  
 

No, nowhere near $30 per pound. But that's not how much Stella & Chewy's costs. It IS still expensive. But now you've challenged my intellect to figure this out.

It will require some assumptions. Bear with me here....

The recommended amount for a 10 pound cat is 1.2 cups. For raw feeding, the guideline for feeding is between 2% and 4% of a cat's weight. Taking the median, 3%, this means daily feeding of 4.8 oz of raw meat.

As the 1.2 cups of S&C weighs 2.1 freeze-dried oz. (per the bag), that's a ratio of 2.3:1 (freeze-dried oz to not freeze-dried oz).

That means the 12-ounce bag is equivalent to 27.4 oz of not freeze-dried meat. That's 1.7 pounds. At $18 per bag, that's $10.50 per pound. As I said - still expensive. :nod:

But let's compare that to some of the higher end wet foods. If you feed 5.5 oz cans, it takes 2.9 cans to equal a pound of food.

Weruva: 2.49 (where I live) for a 5.5oz can. ($7.24 per pound)
Before Grain: $1.99 for a 5.5oz can. ($5.79 per pound).
Wellness grain-free: $1.69 per 5.5 oz can ($4.92 per pound).

If you feed 3 oz cans, it takes 5.3 cans to equal a pound of food.

At roughly $1.19 to $1.69 per can for higher-end stuff, that's $6.88 per pound - $9.01 per pound.