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BoneLESS Frankerprey - Anyone does this?

post #1 of 130
2/22/12 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Hi wavey.gif
For some reason Lucky can not digest bones - her vet does want her on raw, however he doesn't want her to have any bones whatsoever. She also has Juvenile periodontal disease.... and for teeth health, an frankeprey diet would help....
She got quite sick when I introduced her a food with bones (ground) - while she was doing fantastic on foods supplemented with human grade bone meal.

My research also indicates that it might be safer/better for Bugsy, due to his IBD, to keep at least the majority of his diet the same way - boneless, which currently it is. I feed him some bones - but the majority is still commercial either supplemented with Calcium, or with human grade bone meal.

Is there anyone here who feeds a Frankerprey diet without bones successfuly?
How do you supplement your diet? Calcium? Bone Meal? Egg Shells?
How did you figure out the quantities?

Thanks!!wavey.gif
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post #2 of 130
2/22/12 at 11:30am
If you're feeding whole meat pieces--as I understand frankenprey to be--you can't really add calcium. You could add it to ground food, though. Maybe if you did one meal of ground meat with calcium added (enough for the whole day) and the other meals prey-model? And I've heard that some people who have dogs who can't eat bone will give a calcium tablet to the dog every day. I don't know how that would work for a cat. . .dosing would be tricky and I don't know if they absorb the pills like a dog does.
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post #3 of 130
2/22/12 at 5:03pm
Well, as you well know, I have no experience with this. laughing02.gif But in my transition to Frankenprey, because I'm still "iffy" on bones, and mine are still just working on chewing, I'm at least transitioning with boneless. I'm going to use baked, powdered eggshells (1/2 teaspoon per pound of meat), figure out the amount needed per meal, and just sprinkle it on. We'll see how that goes when we get there... laughing02.gif
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post #4 of 130
2/22/12 at 6:17pm

If you take a look at the pictorial on catnutrition.org you'll see that Anne includes large meat chunks with her ground and supplemented mix. Maybe you could do something like that?

 

http://www.catnutrition.org/pictorial.html 

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post #5 of 130
2/22/12 at 6:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post

If you take a look at the pictorial on catnutrition.org you'll see that Anne includes large meat chunks with her ground and supplemented mix. Maybe you could do something like that?

http://www.catnutrition.org/pictorial.html 

I could..... But she does use bones.... which defeats the purpose of what I am looking for. I am looking for serving chunks, at the same time providing the Calcium they need, including to balance the phosphorus in the meat itself.... via supplementation - not bones (Lucky can't have ANY bones for the time being)

I am curious if someone here is already doing this... I saw a thread somewhere of a new member who was doing some of the like. It is pretty much what Laurie will do, actually.....
I am trying to find actual feeder feedback - experiences would be AWESOME!!! - and hopefully where they got their information for supplementation and such.... it is not easy to find/calculate....
I might unlike Laurie, look into other sources of Calcium..... don't know..... which is the purpose of the thread laughing02.gif
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post #6 of 130
2/22/12 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


I could..... But she does use bones.... which defeats the purpose of what I am looking for. I am looking for serving chunks, at the same time providing the Calcium they need, including to balance the phosphorus in the meat itself.... via supplementation - not bones (Lucky can't have ANY bones for the time being)
I am curious if someone here is already doing this... I saw a thread somewhere of a new member who was doing some of the like. It is pretty much what Laurie will do, actually.....
I am trying to find actual feeder feedback - experiences would be AWESOME!!! - and hopefully where they got their information for supplementation and such.... it is not easy to find/calculate....
I might unlike Laurie, look into other sources of Calcium..... don't know..... which is the purpose of the thread :lol3:

 

I had in mind that you could leave out the bone and add calcium.

 

 

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post #7 of 130
2/22/12 at 6:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post


I had in mind that you could leave out the bone and add calcium.


Right....... That is right.... but how much? and of which Calcium? that is the information I am looking for..... Eggshells have a certain qty of Calcium, which differ from bone meal, which differs from Calcium carbonate. So the qty for ea would vary when supplementing the meat...

I don't necessarily need any of the other stuff - the eggs, vitamins, etc.... I am really looking into straight chunks if all possible - supplementing the calcium, which is what they won't be getting. The rest will be in the meat and organs, since they won't be ground.... At least that is my hope agree.gif
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post #8 of 130
2/22/12 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


Right....... That is right.... but how much? and of which Calcium? that is the information I am looking for..... Eggshells have a certain qty of Calcium, which differ from bone meal, which differs from Calcium carbonate. So the qty for ea would vary when supplementing the meat...
I don't necessarily need any of the other stuff - the eggs, vitamins, etc.... I am really looking into straight chunks if all possible - supplementing the calcium, which is what they won't be getting. The rest will be in the meat and organs, since they won't be ground.... At least that is my hope :nod:


I understand what you are trying to do. You can get the calcium amount from any ground recipe. (Edit: I meant any ground *boneless* recipe.)  Just leave out the other supplements and use chunks instead of grinding.

 

From Dr. Pierson's web site:

 

Quote:
However, many people are either unwilling or unable to purchase a grinder so I am finally 'giving in' and will state that if you are going to use 3 pounds ofboneless meat and skin, then the amount of bone meal (NOW brand linked below) to use is 2 1/3 tablespoons.  That is 2 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon....or....7 level teaspoons.  (1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons)

 

I think you will find proponents and opponents of each of the sources of calcium. I've been experimenting with MCHA which is freeze dried bone. Since it is freeze dried almost the full nutrient profile is retained. 

 

 


Edited by mschauer - 2/22/12 at 7:20pm
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post #9 of 130
2/22/12 at 7:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



I think you will find proponents and opponents of each of the sources of calcium. I've been experimenting with MCHA which is freeze dried bone. Since it is freeze dried almost the full nutrient profile is retained. 


Very interesting!! Can you crumble that into a powder? Do you have a link for it?
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post #10 of 130
2/23/12 at 6:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


Very interesting!! Can you crumble that into a powder? Do you have a link for it?


It comes in capsules. I use NOW brand. It is the cheapest I've found. The source is New Zealand or Australian grass feed calves so there should be little chance of toxins. I'm pretty sure that these bones are the byproduct of veal production so you might want to take that into consideration if you have a moral issue with veal production. As far as I can tell NZ and Aus are the only sources of MCHA.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I4DLJK/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details

 

Freeze dried bone is referred to by a lot of names. The full scientific name is microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite. I've also seen it referred to as MCH. It is found in many products used as calcium supplements like Jarrrow Bone Up:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Bone-Up-240-Capsules/dp/B0013OUJIU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1330005620&sr=1-1

 

It isn't as commonly used as a calcium supplement because it is more expensive than the synthetic sources and, because it is much more than just calcium you have to take a lot more of it to get the same amount of calcium. For instance, whole bone contains about 0.6 g of Phosphorus for every 1.0 g of calcium. 

 

If you do a Google search for products other than NOW be careful to only look at products that are MCHA and no other supplements. You'll find many products with vit D added, for instance. The NOW product only has added what is needed to provide the MCHA in capsule form.

 

The form of calcium in MCHA has been shown to be most easily absorbed and it is believed that many of the other nutrients in whole bone that are preserved in MCHA aid the body in better utilizing calcium for bone building.

 

 

 

 

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post #11 of 130
2/23/12 at 6:29am

This might be of interest:

 

http://www.oralchelation.com/technical/calcium2.htm

 

Nature's Menu has some interesting things to say about various calcium sources (scroll to the bottom):

 

http://www.naturesmenu.com/site/493564/page/270161

 

 

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post #12 of 130
2/23/12 at 8:52am
Thread Starter 
Very very interesting!! How are you calculating the qtys for the recipes?
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post #13 of 130
2/23/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Very very interesting!! How are you calculating the qtys for the recipes?


Well,  therein lies the rub. I've written a computer program that produces a nutrient analysis of a recipe using data in the USDA nutrient database and other sources. With it I can determine how much is needed to offset the high levels of phosphorus in the other ingredients to achieve the ideal 1:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus. I've only just started using the MCHA but generally it takes between 40 and 60 capsules (edit: .. per 10 lbs meat + organs). With the NOW product that adds about 40 cents / lb.

 

As you can imagine opening that many capsules can be a real PITA especially when making approx 60 lbs of food like I did last weekend. I've found a food processor does a good job of breaking open the capsules a batcg at a time. I'd love to find a source in free powder form but haven't found it yet.

 

If you decide to use it I can give you a better idea of how much to use with a given meat source provided I have access to the nutrient profile of the meat. The USDA is pretty complete in that regard for the meats we use in cat food including rabbit.

 

 


Edited by mschauer - 2/23/12 at 10:57am
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post #14 of 130
2/23/12 at 10:58am

Googling "ossein hydroxyapatite", which is yet another name for MCHA, will bring up more science based info.

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post #15 of 130
2/23/12 at 12:28pm
Other adventures in calcium supplementation....

Carolina found eggshell supplement: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html

It says to use 6.1 grams per 2.4 pounds of meat. That means 0.159 grams per ounce of meat. I don't know how much that means. If eggshell weighs anything like L-lysine, that's about 1/3 of 1/4 of a teaspoon. The question is - if chewing a chunk of meat with eggshell powder sprinkled on, do they eat the eggshell powder? I haven't successfully added digestive enzymes to the fresh meat and had all of them eat it - to the point where I no longer add the digestive enzymes to fresh meat.
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post #16 of 130
2/23/12 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Other adventures in calcium supplementation....

Carolina found eggshell supplement: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html

It says to use 6.1 grams per 2.4 pounds of meat. That means 0.159 grams per ounce of meat. I don't know how much that means. If eggshell weighs anything like L-lysine, that's about 1/3 of 1/4 of a teaspoon. The question is - if chewing a chunk of meat with eggshell powder sprinkled on, do they eat the eggshell powder? I haven't successfully added digestive enzymes to the fresh meat and had all of them eat it - to the point where I no longer add the digestive enzymes to fresh meat.
 


Yeah, that's the problem I see. If you just sprinkle chunks of meat with the supp a lot if it is going to fall off. How will you know if they are getting enough?

 

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post #17 of 130
2/23/12 at 1:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



Yeah, that's the problem I see. If you just sprinkle chunks of meat with the supp a lot if it is going to fall off. How will you know if they are getting enough?

If you serve 2 frankerprey meals and one ground..... can you add the extra calcium (missing on the previous 2 meals) to the ground? and balance it out daily? Or each meal has to be balanced for phosphorous/ca content individually on its own at the time of feeding?
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post #18 of 130
2/23/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



Yeah, that's the problem I see. If you just sprinkle chunks of meat with the supp a lot if it is going to fall off. How will you know if they are getting enough?

If you serve 2 frankerprey meals and one ground..... can you add the extra calcium (missing on the previous 2 meals) to the ground? and balance it out daily? Or each meal has to be balanced for phosphorous/ca content individually on its own at the time of feeding?

 

That's essentially what I was suggesting in my first post. A combination of ground and chunks. Most raw feeders embrace the "balance over time" approach. They feed some entirely boneless meals and other bone in meals which is basically what you are suggesting. Personally I'm not a fan of the "balance over time" approach because you have to be very careful to make sure you really do get balance over time. Making sure you get balance on a daily basis would be easier than the balance over a week or more that a lot of raw feeders try to do.
 

 

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post #19 of 130
2/23/12 at 1:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post


That's essentially what I was suggesting in my first post. A combination of ground and chunks. Most raw feeders embrace the "balance over time" approach. They feed some entirely boneless meals and other bone in meals which is basically what you are suggesting. Personally I'm not a fan of the "balance over time" approach because you have to be very careful to make sure you really do get balance over time. Making sure you get balance on a daily basis would be easier than the balance over a week or more that a lot of raw feeders try to do.

 

I was under the impression that in the pictorial you were suggesting to mix the ground and the pieces of meat in the same meal - which is not the way I want to go..... dontknow.gif Maybe I got that wrong.....
I am not a fan of overtime balancing either - but if it is ok to do daily.... I would be somewhat open to that..... I do feed equal meals (in weight anyway, so it would be easier to manage - somewhat). That way the probiotics, extra calcium could go in there.....
I will try to put the enzymes on the pieces to see what happens.....
Decisions decisions..... think.gif
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post #20 of 130
2/23/12 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post
I was under the impression that in the pictorial you were suggesting to mix the ground and the pieces of meat in the same meal - which is not the way I want to go..... :dk: Maybe I got that wrong....


That is what the pictorial shows but the result is the same if you feed just the ground at some meals and just chunks at other meals. Which is what you just asked about. 

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post #21 of 130
2/23/12 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

I will try to put the enzymes on the pieces to see what happens.....
Decisions decisions..... :think:


Way back when Coco was still on kibble and I had to give her a probiotic/prebiotic/digestive enzyme supplement with every meal I would make up a slurry that contained it. I would mix 1/8 tsp of the supp plus 1/8 tsp of brewers yeast (which she loves!) and a bit of water. She would lap it right up! It was her before meal treat and she always loved it. Maybe you don't want to use brewers yeast but maybe there is something else you could use to make the slurry. If the probiotic you are using is Forti Flora it has plenty of flavor by itself. Just add a bit of water. Actually Coco would eat her mixture even without the water but sometimes she would snort through her nose while eating and the powder would go everywhere. So she always got the slurry!  laughing02.gif

 

Of course the trick is to find something they like to make the slurry from. If you can find something they like well enough maybe you could even give them the calcium supp that way. Maybe??

 

BTW - Telling you about the MCHA made me start looking again for a source of pure MCHA. When they make capsules and tablets they add stuff to make it easier for the machinery to deal with (like magnesium stearate) and I really don't like that added stuff. I contacted the New Zealand supplier of the raw MCHA and they gave me their US distributor. I contacted them and found that I can indeed get the raw MCHA from them in small quantities. After shipping it probably won't be any cheaper on a per gram of calcium basis than the NOW product but it won't have the added crap and it won't be in capsules. It will just be pure, freeze dried bovine bone.

 

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post #22 of 130
2/23/12 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



Yeah, that's the problem I see. If you just sprinkle chunks of meat with the supp a lot if it is going to fall off. How will you know if they are getting enough?

Yeah, definitely not a good long term solution. We'll just have to see. I ordered some NOW MCHA and eggshells. laughing02.gif I'll be loaded up for months, I guess... but ultimately I guess it's best to just move to proper frankenprey. Two of mine have had x-rays in the last week, and there's a lot of bone in their stool and in their colon. But the vet wasn't worried - nothing dangerous looking, and she said what they're not digesting they should be passing without a problem. As it is, if they're constipated, they're digesting more bone than they "need," anyway. The Hare Today is whole ground animals - I don't know what the bone-to-meat/organs ratio is in a pig. But the NV (which I was using) is 15% bone, so that needed to be "thinned out" with fresh meat anyway.
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post #23 of 130
2/23/12 at 10:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Yeah, definitely not a good long term solution. We'll just have to see. I ordered some NOW MCHA and eggshells. laughing02.gif I'll be loaded up for months, I guess... but ultimately I guess it's best to just move to proper frankenprey. Two of mine have had x-rays in the last week, and there's a lot of bone in their stool and in their colon. But the vet wasn't worried - nothing dangerous looking, and she said what they're not digesting they should be passing without a problem. As it is, if they're constipated, they're digesting more bone than they "need," anyway. The Hare Today is whole ground animals - I don't know what the bone-to-meat/organs ratio is in a pig. But the NV (which I was using) is 15% bone, so that needed to be "thinned out" with fresh meat anyway.

Yeah..... For Lucky I don't really have that option...... But I would love to have her chewing on meat for the great majority of her diet, if not all for her teeth. Bugsy I rather do something like 2/3 no bones, 1/3 bone.... I guess all we can do is try and see how it works dontknow.gif
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post #24 of 130
2/24/12 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Yeah, definitely not a good long term solution. We'll just have to see. I ordered some NOW MCHA and eggshells. :lol3: I'll be loaded up for months, I guess... but ultimately I guess it's best to just move to proper frankenprey. Two of mine have had x-rays in the last week, and there's a lot of bone in their stool and in their colon. But the vet wasn't worried - nothing dangerous looking, and she said what they're not digesting they should be passing without a problem. As it is, if they're constipated, they're digesting more bone than they "need," anyway. The Hare Today is whole ground animals - I don't know what the bone-to-meat/organs ratio is in a pig. But the NV (which I was using) is 15% bone, so that needed to be "thinned out" with fresh meat anyway.


Remember that according to Dr. Pierson rabbit has a high bone to meat ratio. I don't know what that ratio is but maybe it is as high as 15% also?

 

Can you easily see the bone in their stool? I've never seen any in mine but I can't say I've really looked! Maybe it's normal to see bits of bone in the stool and x-rays of raw fed kitties?? I can't remember if any of mine have had to be x-rayed since being on raw.

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post #25 of 130
2/24/12 at 4:49pm
They don't have much experience x-raying kitties at the beginning of a raw transition. laughing02.gif Most of their clients feed raw to their dogs, not the cats. None seemed overly concerned about it - all the bone bits were very small, "shouldn't be a problem." But I started picking out the larger chunks when I could see them in the poop. I don't normally examine my cats' poop, but at the beginning, it was just so drastically different, and there were definitely undigested bones in it. dontknow.gif
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post #26 of 130
3/14/12 at 8:42am
FYI, an update. I've been feeding two meals of frankenprey daily - no bones. I was using eggshell supplement. If using eggshell, the amount is 1/32 of a teaspoon per ounce. I supplement per meal, just by sprinkling the eggshell directly on the meat. It sticks fine, and they eat it, no problem!

I did switch to the Calcium Hydroxyapatite. The amount of elemental calcium in the NOW capsules is 1g per serving - 4 capsules is a serving. With the guideline that you use 1000mg (1g) per pound of meat, that's 1/4 capsule per oz. of meat. This also just sticks right to the meat, and they eat it no problem. smile.gif
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post #27 of 130
3/14/12 at 8:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

FYI, an update. I've been feeding two meals of frankenprey daily - no bones. I was using eggshell supplement. If using eggshell, the amount is 1/32 of a teaspoon per ounce. I supplement per meal, just by sprinkling the eggshell directly on the meat. It sticks fine, and they eat it, no problem!
I did switch to the Calcium Hydroxyapatite. The amount of elemental calcium in the NOW capsules is 1g per serving - 4 capsules is a serving. With the guideline that you use 1000mg (1g) per pound of meat, that's 1/4 capsule per oz. of meat. This also just sticks right to the meat, and they eat it no problem. smile.gif

yeah.gif
I was supplementing with Calcium and they were doing just fine..... Lucky was being supplemented with Eggshells.... However Monday I took Bugsy to a holistic vet and discussed the supplementation options with him, and he recommended Calcium Hydroxyapatite. Since it is not made for pets, and there is no qtys for raw feeding, his suggestion was to follow the general guideline of 1,000mg of calcium per pound of meat..... He said that this should be the closest profile to bone, and a great choice. Now, that's what all my babies will get; I will also supplement every meal, instead of in advance, in the morning biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 130
3/14/12 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

FYI, an update. I've been feeding two meals of frankenprey daily - no bones. I was using eggshell supplement. If using eggshell, the amount is 1/32 of a teaspoon per ounce. I supplement per meal, just by sprinkling the eggshell directly on the meat. It sticks fine, and they eat it, no problem!

I did switch to the Calcium Hydroxyapatite. The amount of elemental calcium in the NOW capsules is 1g per serving - 4 capsules is a serving. With the guideline that you use 1000mg (1g) per pound of meat, that's 1/4 capsule per oz. of meat. This also just sticks right to the meat, and they eat it no problem. smile.gif


I'm glad you liked my suggestion of the MCHA. smile.gif  You might want to consider though that, since it does have almost the same nutrient profile as whole bone, it also contains a significant amount of phosphorus. To achieve the optimal calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1, you'll need to use about 1/2 a capsule per oz of meat. To really achieve the 1:1 ratio depends on the amount of phosphorus in the other diet ingredients.   

 

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post #29 of 130
3/14/12 at 10:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



I'm glad you liked my suggestion of the MCHA. smile.gif   You might want to consider though that, since it does have almost the same nutrient profile as whole bone, it also contains a significant amount of phosphorus. To achieve the optimal calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1, you'll need to use about 1/2 a capsule per oz of meat. To really achieve the 1:1 ratio depends on the amount of phosphorus in the other diet ingredients.   

Ok... He did bring up the point that to know for certain if the food is really balanced, you would need a computer program with the entire menu, send it to a lab, where they would put it into such software, or, feed the kitty and keep running tests periodically where you would check for deficiencies.....
I feed many different meats.... I need an average here, balancing overtime.
If it contains pretty much the same profile as bones, I am sure it is ok to work on an average - bone-in frankeprey works the same way. The meats are not the same protein as where the bones come from, and the ratio is balanced overtime.... so.....
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post #30 of 130
3/14/12 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



I'm glad you liked my suggestion of the MCHA. smile.gif   You might want to consider though that, since it does have almost the same nutrient profile as whole bone, it also contains a significant amount of phosphorus. To achieve the optimal calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1, you'll need to use about 1/2 a capsule per oz of meat. To really achieve the 1:1 ratio depends on the amount of phosphorus in the other diet ingredients.   

Ok... He did bring up the point that to know for certain if the food is really balanced, you would need a computer program with the entire menu, send it to a lab, where they would put it into such software, or, feed the kitty and keep running tests periodically where you would check for deficiencies.....
I feed many different meats.... I need an average here.


Which is exactly the reason I wrote a computer program to analyze my recipes. smile.gif

 

If you and Laurie are going to use the MCHA I'll post some information about how much MCHA to use with various meat sources. I would have done it sooner but I've been messing about with the program a lot lately and sometimes it's broken. laughing02.gif

 

I should be able to post some information this weekend...

 

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